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Capitalism is KILLING Gaming (NonCompete)

catswaller

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
Goronmon said:
I think you're misunderstanding my argument. If one, or two, or three, or ten people get together to make a game and sell it, then that is still capitalism. Capitalism isn't solely "Massive public corporations screwing the little guy for profit." Is also includes any small business or indie developer who makes a profit selling their own labor.
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beclause said:
The example where the three devs make a game and sell it to share the profits is exactly how capitalism works. That is most new companies get a start. That is also how older companies get disrupted by new ones.
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Unless we're severely misunderstanding eachother, I don't think either of these arguments are true. Selling things and making money isnt unique to capitalism -- it precedes it, and it will succeed it, if capitalism ever goes away.

What is unique to capitalism is holding private property, paying laborers to work with that property, and pocketing the difference between what you pay them and what the product of their work is worth. Or, put another way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism said:
Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3]
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A small indie can certainly behave in a capitalistic way, but by no means has to in order to operate.

Where even the most egalitarian indie developer will probably find themselves becoming a capitalist tho is what they do with all of that money they make from selling their game -- unless they stuff it in their mattress as cash, it's probably going to operate as Capital somewhere -- either loaned out to a bank, or more directly invested in stocks or in paying workers.
 
Twig

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
"Games wouldn't exist without capitalism."

Y'all clowns spoutin' this nonsense are funny.
 
Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
John Proxy said:
To be overly simplistic. The issue isn't capitalism it is unchecked capitalism.
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Exactly.

FDR's New Deal was about a healthy balance of capitalism tempered with social programs to ensure people don't slip through the cracks.

Plenty of other countries have managed that balancing act to the betterment of their respective societies but our current leaders, both political and corporate alike, are so obsessed with the accumulation of wealth that common sense gets tossed out the window and we are locked in this ridiculous and unsustainable system that grinds people up even as a very tiny percentage of entitled assholes amass wealth they couldn't spend in ten lifetimes.
 

Deleted member 47843

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Sep 16, 2018
2,501
Meh. There are some consumer unfriendly practices in some games and some bad working conditions for people in the industry in some studios for sure. But I've been gaming for more than 30 years and I've never enjoyed gaming more.
 
Stuggatz

Stuggatz

Member
Jun 6, 2018
358
Helio said:
Public entities.

To be clear, socialism isn't the government doing more stuff. Socialism is the workers owning the means of production.
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So if we created a National Health Service public entity to provide healthcare to Americans financed by taxes, you would not consider that socialism?
 
AristoCat

AristoCat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
93
No matter how hard you spin it, the fact is the sum of all individual interest does not equate the general interest.

Invisible hand was nonsense.
 
Khamsinvera

Khamsinvera

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,580
The era of Luigi said:
This is a very simplistic view that ignores third world countries whose are capitalist too.
09a561f3-89b8-4dc5-bc42-b68800d789a2.jpg

No matter how hard these kids and their parents work they will never achieve anything close to minimum quality of live needed
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Thanks for plugging that photo of poor Indian kids in there. India was primarily socialistic until the '80s. I grew up there. Socialism freakin' sucked for me and millions of other low-middle class families. There were no jobs, no opportunities - you basically needed to go thru the government for anything related to business. Indian Railways, the electric company, airlines, everything was owned by the government and we got fucked on every turn. Healthcare was a ridiculous joke. There were 2 cars you could buy IF could afford them - a Fiat or an HM Ambassador - both were nightmare. There was a saying "your shoes will wear out before you find a job" - basically, the amount of searching you'll have to do before you land a job.

And people wonder why I hate socialism so much ....
 
catswaller

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
Goronmon said:
Sure, but I was responding to someone saying that an indie developer is an example of "not-capitalism", and that small indie developers can absolutely be examples of "capitalism".
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Right, they can be (paying workers, or giving them unequal % profit shares) but they dont have to be -- an game where 3 people work on it, and split the profits exactly 3 ways, is by no means an example of capitalistic behavior.

No profit is being made via control of the means of production. Instead, the money from the sales (ie, the ownership of the product of the labor) is being proportionally distributed to the laborers.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Stuggatz said:
So if we created a National Health Service public entity to provide healthcare to Americans financed by taxes, you would not consider that socialism?
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Nope. That's not to say it wouldn't be good. We definitely need that. However, it is not socialism. A lot of people confuse democratic socialism with social democracy. The former is the workers owning the means and the latter is the Nordic model.
 
Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
41%2BjuFSGKSL._SX342_.jpg


Anybody read this?

I haven't finished it but what I found utterly shocking is that many corporate leaders and business owners used to understand that fair wages and excellent treatment of employees was essential to maximize productivity and they also understood that a well-fed and funded working and middle class were also loyal and consistent customers.

Our leadership today is so fundamentally short-sighted that it's almost comical how stupid and vapid their leadership seems in comparison.
 
House_Of_Lightning

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Stuggatz said:
Then what do you call the US post office? The US public school system?
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Government owned corporations.


catswaller said:
Unless we're severely misunderstanding eachother, I don't think either of these arguments are true. Selling things and making money isnt unique to capitalism -- it precedes it, and it will succeed it, if capitalism ever goes away.
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Goronmon said:
I think you're misunderstanding my argument. If one, or two, or three, or ten people get together to make a game and sell it, then that is still capitalism. Capitalism isn't solely "Massive public corporations screwing the little guy for profit." It also includes any small business or indie developer who makes a profit selling their own labor.
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While the market and value exchange predate Capitalism, Capitalism is commodity production and exchange on a mass, expansion and demand driven scale.

As long as a commodity is being produced (a videogame to be sold so that value can be used to pay for labor and invest in growth) then it is Capitalism. Doesn't matter if EA is doing it with hundreds of employees or if Zeboyd Games is doing it with two employees.
 
Kin5290

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
DocSeuss said:
There's nothing wrong with loot crates, DLC, gaming as a service, or taking down ROMs

(well, there is something about taking down roms when you don't offer those same games for sale)
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Lets be real, there's nothing wrong with taking down ROMs of games you no longer sell. No company is obligated to make any product they made or have the rights to sell s available to the public. If a toy manufacturer decided to pull an old toy from the shelves for whatever reason, people aren't allowed to go raiding the warehouses where they're being kept.
 

Deleted member 22490

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Oct 28, 2017
9,237
OneBadMutha said:
Or Medicare. Welfare. Or some aspects of our health system....

Some people don't understand the things they say.
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Nah, I pretty understand the things that I'm saying. You're confusing social democracy with democratic socialism. One is capitalism with a welfare state and the other seeks to replace capitalism with socialism which is where the workers own the means of production.
 
House_Of_Lightning

House_Of_Lightning

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Oct 29, 2017
5,048
catswaller said:
Right, they can be (paying workers, or giving them unequal % profit shares) but they dont have to be -- an game where 3 people work on it, and split the profits exactly 3 ways, is by no means an example of capitalistic behavior.

No profit is being made via control of the means of production. Instead, the money from the sales (ie, the ownership of the product of the labor) is being proportionally distributed to the laborers.
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As long as your labor is in the pursuit of commodity production, sale, value, exchange, and wages then it is Capitalism.

"More Ethical Capitalism" is not Socialism.
 
Lulu

Lulu

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
26,680
Gamers don got murder they Respawns

Like this post if you get it.
 
catswaller

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
dont think ya'll understand exactly what capitalism is. It's not the production of goods -- it's the production of goods based on private ownership of the means of production.

I'm not gonna do your econ homework for you since I've already explained it, but there are a loooooot of sources you can read if you want to learn more of the details of the distinction. Any classical economics book (imo read marx's Capital but also could read the wealth of nations or whatever), the wikipedia page on Capitalism, whatever.

House_Of_Lightning said:
As long as your labor is in the pursuit of commodity production, sale, value, exchange, and wages then it is Capitalism.

"More Ethical Capitalism" is not Socialism.
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All of these properties predate capitalism except a speific kind of wages -- and what I proposed doesn't involve wage labor as it's defined under capitalism.
 
Evangelista

Evangelista

Using an alt account to circumvent a ban
Banned
Aug 21, 2018
708
OneBadMutha said:
Good luck getting the next God of War or Red Dead game made without capitalism. Ditto for the next Avengers movie. Best athletes in the world playing sports in giant stadiums without capitalism? Sure.
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The problem we just have big movies now, a few every year and because we have a fever about super heroe moves. Small movies, thriller movies, they gone.
Same for games. AA games gone. we have just a few but soon we gonna have nothing. Will be small indies( very limited games) and big AAA GAAS games.
 
Oddhouse

Oddhouse

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,039
John Proxy said:
To be overly simplistic. The issue isn't capitalism it is unchecked capitalism.
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Fair comment.

Regulation should keep abusive capitaslim in check. Where the US really falls down more than other countries is special interest groups influencing politics in Washington. Good example is the net neutrality bill which congresses passed. That was horrendously bad.

So glad we don't have that in Europe.
 
Era of not Yakuza

Era of not Yakuza

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
11,481
Brazil
Khamsinvera said:
Thanks for plugging that photo of poor Indian kids in there. India was primarily socialistic until the '80s. I grew up there. Socialism freakin' sucked for me and millions of other low-middle class families. There were no jobs, no opportunities - you basically needed to go thru the government for anything related to business. Indian Railways, the electric company, airlines, everything was owned by the government and we got fucked on every turn. Healthcare was a ridiculous joke. There were 2 cars you could buy IF could afford them - a Fiat or an HM Ambassador - both were nightmare. There was a saying "your shoes will wear out before you find a job" - basically, the amount of searching you'll have to do before you land a job.

And people wonder why I hate socialism so much ....
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Attacking capitalism is equivalent to defending socialism. You have all reasons to be upset.
(I could take photos from Brazil too)
I would argue that India's problems goes back to imperialism and UK
 
House_Of_Lightning

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
catswaller said:
Wage Labor is the fundamental foundation of capitalism yeah (although it predates it slightly), but making something yourself and selling it isn't wage labor. Nobody paid you a wage, and much more importantly, you didn't require a wage in order to continue to subsist.
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You paid yourself a wage.

And if you didn't pay yourself a wage then your labor goes unrequited.

No one works for free.
 
Visanideth

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Khamsinvera said:
Thanks for plugging that photo of poor Indian kids in there. India was primarily socialistic until the '80s. I grew up there. Socialism freakin' sucked for me and millions of other low-middle class families. There were no jobs, no opportunities - you basically needed to go thru the government for anything related to business. Indian Railways, the electric company, airlines, everything was owned by the government and we got fucked on every turn. Healthcare was a ridiculous joke. There were 2 cars you could buy IF could afford them - a Fiat or an HM Ambassador - both were nightmare. There was a saying "your shoes will wear out before you find a job" - basically, the amount of searching you'll have to do before you land a job.

And people wonder why I hate socialism so much ....
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And this will go ignored by everyone as usual.
 
Goronmon

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
catswaller said:
Right, what's private ownership? What's the means of production? What's profit? I articulated all three above.
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If it's a three person indie developer, the "private ownership" is the business itself, including any content, materials, property, etc that the business has control over. The "means of production" in this case being their own work, and the "profit" being the difference between the operating cost of the business and sales of the game being made.

The three person team has full control over the content of their game, the price they want to sell it for, etc. So, capitalism.
 
House_Of_Lightning

House_Of_Lightning

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Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Goronmon said:
If it's a three person indie developer, the "private ownership" is the business itself, including any content, materials, property, etc that the business has control over. The "means of production" in this case being their own work, and the "profit" being the difference between the operating cost of the business and sales of the game being made.

The three person team has full control over the content of their game, the price they want to sell it for, etc. So, capitalism.
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And it's still Capitalism.
 
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