L.A. Noire Crunch Culture, Bondi issues, RockStar Boss chimes in #NoCakeDay

Megatron · Oct 17, 2018

Grimminski said:
They would get fired.

Now, maybe, but six months ago? Not a chance. They can't fire a whole studio. It would take forever to hire replacements to finish the game, and a lot of devs wouldn't leave their jobs for that mess. If everyone walked, they would bitch and threaten, but they would have to relent in some ways.

UrbanDandy · Oct 17, 2018

Damn. Rockstar's HR must not care.

Nothing Loud · Oct 17, 2018

Dark Ninja said:
30 min for a break is pretty long usually you are allowed 10-15 min. 30 min to an hour is a lunch break so if the people who were just hanging out at the kitchen conversing on company time I can see why the higher ups would be mad. If you are working crunch you usually have a lunch and dinner break available. They should have just coordinated their breaks together if they really wanted to have cake.

These are career professionals, usually with college degrees, bright minds, and good work ethic, not herds of cattle.

Companies that don't trust their highly skilled employees to deliver their results instead of micromanaging their time will always fail at optimizing their skilled labor.

TheTrain · Oct 17, 2018

MistaTwo said:
I mean, it's possible I guess. But the way it is written sounds like she cooked the cake and immediately sent out an email to get everyone to take a break.
The entire point is that she did it because everyone needed a break from crunch. Baking a cake at 9PM, but only sitting down to eat it the next day at 2PM doesn't really make much sense in context, especially when she again reiterates that it was in response to late hours and weekend work.

Even if it was actually during 'actual work hours' that line is obviously VERY blurred if they are working 12 hour days anyway.

She also explain that this was "...an afternoon tea break...", that doesn't sound like something that you do out of work.
But whatever, the problem is still there, crunch need to be, at least, regulated, it can't be mandatory and used to instill the fear of losing a job

UrbanDandy · Oct 17, 2018

I mean if anything, if the Houser's don't care, start communicating to Zelnick (CEO of Take-Two).

Nacho · Oct 17, 2018

Dark Ninja said:
30 min for a break is pretty long usually you are allowed 10-15 min. 30 min to an hour is a lunch break so if the people who were just hanging out at the kitchen conversing on company time I can see why the higher ups would be mad. If you are working crunch you usually have a lunch and dinner break available. They should have just coordinated their breaks together if they really wanted to have cake.

you're acting like this is a 30 min break during a normal 40 hour week. these people are essentially living where they're working during this crunch time. they should be allowed to friggen get up and talk to someone for their health for 30 minutes without the company collapsing.

MistaTwo · Oct 17, 2018

TheTrain said:
She also explain that this was "...an afternoon tea break...", that doesn't sound like something that you do out of work.
But whatever, the problem is still there, crunch need to be, at least, regulated, it can't be mandatory and used to instill the fear of losing a job

Yeah, I suppose it could have eventually turned into an afternoon break sort of thing.
Hell, I don't even know what afternoon tea time even means really as I'm not a brit. :p
A quick google search says between 3-5PM, and assuming that Australia follows the general 9 to 5 schedule, they could have easily just been doing it right after regular working hours.

leapfrogvita · Oct 17, 2018

someone should make a simple thread on here "Will you Boycott Red Dead 2" just to see how many people will get it versus how many will not because of these developments.

if you can make a poll that is anonymous, it would be the preferred way. I would of course if I had thread making privileges, if anyone wants to do that, I'm just interested to see what the results would be?

Protoman200X · Oct 17, 2018

"We have poor project management skills, and we've taken the unethical path of demanding our staff work disgusting hours and bragging about it, instead of taking a PR hit and pushing the release back by a month."

Seriously, this is nothing to be proud about.

aember · Oct 17, 2018

leapfrogvita said:
someone should make a simple thread on here "Will you Boycott Red Dead 2" just to see how many people will get it versus how many will not because of these developments.

if you can make a poll that is anonymous, it would be the preferred way. I would of course if I had thread making privileges, if anyone wants to do that, I'm just interested to see what the results would be?

It'll probably go something along the lines of this

leapfrogvita · Oct 17, 2018

aember said:
It'll probably go something along the lines of this

someone should make a poll thread on here

entrydenied · Oct 17, 2018

Nacho said:
you're acting like this is a 30 min break during a normal 40 hour week. these people are essentially living where they're working during this crunch time. they should be allowed to friggen get up and talk to someone for their health for 30 minutes without the company collapsing.

Even if it's a 30 min break during a 40 hour work week, I think it's ok if it's like a celebration for someone's birthday in your department or some other special occasion. Some people in this thread just have no empathy.

Ideally no professions should require more than 8 to 10 hours of hours of your time. It's just no productive and make you prone to make mistakes.

regenhuber · Oct 17, 2018

leapfrogvita said:
someone should make a simple thread on here "Will you Boycott Red Dead 2" just to see how many people will get it versus how many will not because of these developments.

The same number of people who stopped buying smartphones when they became aware of Chinese factory worker suicide rates?

Seriously, all these "crunch is bad" and "poor workers" posts are only written to make people feel good about themselves. Most of them will get RDR2 regardless others never had an intention to buy it in the first place.

leapfrogvita · Oct 17, 2018

regenhuber said:
The same number of people who stopped buying smartphones when they became aware of Chinese factory worker suicide rates?

Seriously, all these "crunch is bad" and "poor workers" posts are only written to make people feel good about themselves. Most of them will get RDR2 regardless others never had an intention to buy it in the first place.

I know, I know i would like to see a poll on here though

if anyone wants to do it, I don't want to force it on you guys, but its just something I am interested in

DOA · Oct 17, 2018

some places still have management with the industrial revolution mentality, people are just work labor, and they must work, and nothing more

sewing-room-at-stewart-1875-grafton-compressor-768x506.jpg

I worked at a place like that a long time ago, and when i left i did a goodbye all spread (when everyone got together and i was able to say goodbye to everyone, while they ate and drank). this was a max 20mins thing.

the owner was angry with me, and he showed me on a board the cold calculations of why he was loosing money on this. i didn't want to anger him more (he didn't sign the compensations authorization yet) so
I didn't say anything. but one thing for sure, every place afterwards was paradise, when compared to this place

gattotimo · Oct 17, 2018

poofynamanama2 said:
Can you explain in detail why you think Red Dead Redemption has childish writing?

It's quite difficult for me to explain it in detail since I'm not a native English speaker. I'll try anyway. What I mean is that I find their characters and especially their dialogues one dimensional and lacking any kind of nuances. You have your usual archetypes (the outlaw with an earth of gold, the strong woman who don't let feelings get in the way, the sneaky untrustwhorty government guys, the womanizing and shallow revolutionary guy who is more show than substance, and so on). Everything about them scream cheap social satire: 'oh look, governments don't deserve your trust and are going to screw you over; oh look, revolutionaries are going to turn into dictators worse than their predecessors over time; oh look, outlaws aren't necessarily evil and lawmen aren't necessarily good, that surely is a valuable life lesson'... and so on. And, worse than that, their dialogues. The way every single one of them always always ALWAYS speaks and behave accordingly to his archetype. The strong independent female who doesn't let feelings get in the way, speaks every single one of her lines accordingly. The retired outlaw disenchanted with the world and the people is always going to be exactly that, and is always going to comment bleakly about everything he does and sees. It's hard to explain... but it really rubs me in the wrong way, that's not how real people (nor good written characters) behave and talk.

Brandon said:
Your opinion on the quality of their games has literally nothing to do with this and comes off like you're trying to shit on the overworked developers.

First of all, what I wanted to communicate with my post is precisely that I think that those shitty practices DON'T translate to good games, so I'm not shitting on the devs... I'm shitting on crunch colture and exploiting developers behind any reasonable limit. Second of all, you're clearly missing the unwritten part of my message, which I'll now make explicit for you: 'Rockstar is to me, by far, the most overrated game developer of all time. Bland gameplay, insane production values, their only redeeming quality, and the childish writing you would expect from a wannabe Tarantino emulator fresh out of screenwriting 101... and so it'll be REALLY easy for me to punish this awful behavior by not buying RDR2'. Now it has at least something to do with this, hasn't it?

leapfrogvita · Oct 17, 2018

gattotimo said:
It's quite difficult for me to explain it in detail since I'm not a native English speaker. I'll try anyway. What I mean is that I find their characters and especially their dialogues one dimensional and lacking any kind of nuances. You have your usual archetypes (the outlaw with an earth of gold, the strong woman who don't let feelings get in the way, the sneaky untrustwhorty government guys, the womanizing and shallow revolutionary guy who is more show than substance, and so on). Everything about them scream cheap social satire: 'oh look, governments don't deserve your trust and are going to screw you over; oh look, revolutionaries are going to turn into dictators worse than their predecessors over time; oh look, outlaws aren't necessarily evil and lawmen aren't necessarily good, that surely is a valuable life lesson'... and so on. And, worse than that, their dialogues. The way every single one of them always always ALWAYS speaks and behave accordingly to his archetype. The strong independent female who doesn't let feelings get in the way, speaks every single one of her lines accordingly. The retired outlaw disenchanted with the world and the people is always going to be exactly that, and is always going to comment bleakly about everything he does and sees. It's hard to explain... but it really rubs me in the wrong way, that's not how real people (nor good written characters) behave and talk.

First of all, what I wanted to communicate with my post is precisely that I think that those shitty practices DON'T translate to good games, so I'm not shitting on the devs... I'm shitting on crunch colture and exploiting developers behind any reasonable limit. Second of all, you're clearly missing the unwritten part of my message, which I'll now make explicit for you: 'Rockstar is to me, by far, the most overrated game developer of all time. Bland gameplay, insane production values, their only redeeming quality, and the childish writing you would expect from a wannabe Tarantino emulator fresh out of screenwriting 101... and so it'll be REALLY easy for me to punish this awful behavior by not buying RDR2'. Now it has at least something to do with this, hasn't it?

its ok if you don't like their games, but many, many gamers, critics etc. do love their games which is why they are always critically acclaimed and sell amazingly well and many would disagree with you on those points

gattotimo · Oct 17, 2018

leapfrogvita said:
its ok if you don't like their games, but many, many gamers, critics etc. do love their games which is why they are always critically acclaimed and sell amazingly well and many would disagree with you on those points

Well that's perfectly fine by me. To each is own tastes and opinions :)

Fuchsia · Oct 17, 2018

I hope more and more people make their voices heard!

TP-DK · Oct 17, 2018

leapfrogvita said:
someone should make a simple thread on here "Will you Boycott Red Dead 2" just to see how many people will get it versus how many will not because of these developments.

if you can make a poll that is anonymous, it would be the preferred way. I would of course if I had thread making privileges, if anyone wants to do that, I'm just interested to see what the results would be?

It shouldnt be up to the consumers to make sure that companies dont turn people into slaves.

Deleted member 3925 · Oct 17, 2018

leapfrogvita said:
someone should make a simple thread on here "Will you Boycott Red Dead 2" just to see how many people will get it versus how many will not because of these developments.

if you can make a poll that is anonymous, it would be the preferred way. I would of course if I had thread making privileges, if anyone wants to do that, I'm just interested to see what the results would be?

Let's not.

leapfrogvita · Oct 17, 2018

Lead said:
Let's not.

im interested

Mendrox · Oct 17, 2018

leapfrogvita said:
someone should make a simple thread on here "Will you Boycott Red Dead 2" just to see how many people will get it versus how many will not because of these developments.

if you can make a poll that is anonymous, it would be the preferred way. I would of course if I had thread making privileges, if anyone wants to do that, I'm just interested to see what the results would be?

Even if nobody on here would buy the game nothing would change. We are the minority here on this forum and the normal customer wont know these stories.

fspm · Oct 17, 2018

Boycott RDR2, ok. Don't forget boycotting your phone, pc, jeans, car, food etc cause it's 90% those were made using same kind of slave labor. The outrage suddenly dissipates and you're back to posting cat gifs on twitter with above mentioned phone.

leapfrogvita · Oct 17, 2018

Mendrox said:
Even if nobody on here would buy the game nothing would change. We are the minority here on this forum and the normal customer wont know these stories.

can someone please make a thread though

entrydenied · Oct 17, 2018

Simsamdeo said:
It really shows how they only think of their employees as tools. They don't care even if these unofficial breaks help increase productivity. They just think of people as "slacking off". It's all about their own twisted perception of how reality is, and they'll use their authority to make it come true. They're insane.

It's also insane because the senior management guy was at the canteen himself at 3 pm. He must have been there to buy food too. So it becomes this selfish ideal where only he can take breaks whereas others who are under him can't.

Another insane story of another friend was when her boss told her and her team that they need to monitor the 2 outsourced cleaners because they've been taking water from the water cooler. These two cleaners, who are a couple in their 60s, work for 8 hours a day and her manager expects them to not drink anything because they're technically not their employees and therefore should not be afforded water from their company. It was when my friend finally confirmed that her boss and her colleagues who agree with her boss are just unemphatic crazy people.

The situation as describe in the OP is the same story of how people in better positions look down and treat people in worse positions as tools. These are the same people who scoff at people who want universal healthcare or have to rely on welfare just to live. And I really don't have any nice words for people in this thread who think that it's ok for companies to work their employees to the bone just because they're paid. Neither for those who think mobility in employment is just easy peasy.

MosquitoSmasher · Oct 17, 2018

The_Land said:
Every company does this. If you are boycotting RDR2 you might as well boycott every game ever made and every game that is going to come out.

I sure as hell am not doing that. Because exactly as you say, you might as well just boycott every game ever made, basically just quit gaming, hell no.

Pez · Oct 17, 2018

Rockstar is getting raked through the coals.

Good. Their reputation has been notorious and they think they're big enough where it doesn't matter.

It does matter and I'm skipping red dead because of this.

Deleted member 16876 · Oct 17, 2018

Why do I have a feeling greenrock returned?

Deleted member 17676 · Oct 17, 2018

Muffin said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

I can't make it any simpler. You're making very basic illogical arguments to the point that it looks like trolling. Stop.

Trolling because I don't agree with you.

Are you always this precious? I suppose with a name like muffin you are.

Yes it is hypocrisy. Don't just call out one publisher, call out the others and you won't have many games left to play. Is that clear for you muffin?

SolVanderlyn · Oct 17, 2018

Fuck that. But bless that woman for doing what she did while she could do it.

If you're going to have something like crunch culture, don't stamp out something like cake day. It just makes you look like a monocle-wearing, mustache twirling industrialist era villain.

SprachBrooks · Oct 17, 2018

Dark Ninja said:
30 min for a break is pretty long usually you are allowed 10-15 min. 30 min to an hour is a lunch break so if the people who were just hanging out at the kitchen conversing on company time I can see why the higher ups would be mad. If you are working crunch you usually have a lunch and dinner break available. They should have just coordinated their breaks together if they really wanted to have cake.

Wtf am I reading?

massoluk · Oct 17, 2018

chubigans said:
I know RDR2 will sell one trillion copies, but one of those won't be from me. Infuriating and despicable.

Same

Skronk · Oct 17, 2018

fspm said:
Boycott RDR2, ok. Don't forget boycotting your phone, pc, jeans, car, food etc cause it's 90% those were made using same kind of slave labor. The outrage suddenly dissipates and you're back to posting cat gifs on twitter with above mentioned phone.

Taking a stand doesn't have to be all or nothing. It's unreasonable to expect people to change everything all at once.

Let me ask you, what value does belittling people for their personal choices have? What are you trying to achieve? Because it just looks like you're trying to shame people into inactivity so you don't look as bad for ignoring issues.

DryCreek · Oct 17, 2018

Demolition_Human · Oct 17, 2018

Good thing I don't give a shit about RDR 2. Fuck Rockstar.

-Devious- · Oct 17, 2018

Hodgy said:
what would be the purpose?

there is no point in boycotting the game as:

1. The boycott wont be widespread enough
2. The only people that actually get hurt by a boycott would be the devs doing the crunch
3. The devs still want you to play their game.

I say this as a dev that has done lots of crunch in the past.

The answer is regulation and labor laws, tell your representatives.

It will never get a huge following or turn into something large if people don't voice their concern and outrage. You are essentially shutting it down before it turns into something bigger. The point is to be able to point to said exploitation and be conscious of it. With the hopes of it gaining traction.

Daouzin · Oct 17, 2018

Demolition_Human said:
Good thing I don't give a shit about RDR 2. Fuck Rockstar.

Yeah, that's the boat I'm in. I just played RDR 1 a few months back to see if I would have any interested for RDR 2, but seeing as how the game was pretty meh and Rockstar is apparently a nightmare, I think it will be pretty easy for me to pass on the hype train.

P.S. Some of these posters are also nightmares.

DryCreek · Oct 17, 2018

Deleted member 5596 · Oct 17, 2018

Dark Ninja said:
30 min for a break is pretty long usually you are allowed 10-15 min. 30 min to an hour is a lunch break so if the people who were just hanging out at the kitchen conversing on company time I can see why the higher ups would be mad. If you are working crunch you usually have a lunch and dinner break available. They should have just coordinated their breaks together if they really wanted to have cake.

Or, since the team is heavily overworking and crunching, they deserve that additional break once a week considering the benefits it had for the morale and the whole team.

Deathglobe · Oct 17, 2018

At this point not buying the game would do more harm for those guys who put in 100hrs a week wouldn't it?

Zombine · Oct 17, 2018

UrbanDandy said:
Damn. Rockstar's HR must not care.

HR is not in place to protect workers. It's there to protect bosses and the company.

Linus815 · Oct 17, 2018

Deathglobe said:
At this point not buying the game would do more harm for those guys who put in 100hrs a week wouldn't it?

I mean, if it makes you feel better not giving money to Rockstar, feel free to not buy it. The game will 99% likely be a massive success either way - I think a lot of people also seem to not realize that a lot of those developers who slaved away making this game are still gonna be extremely proud of their work when it comes out and most likely sells millions of copies and reviews well. IT's their creation, afterall.

-Devious- · Oct 17, 2018

Hodgy said:
Then voice your distaste. You dont need to do a boycott to achieve that. though if it helps peopel rally around the cause then i can see the point.

i guess what i mean is:

if the boycott is to bring oxygen to the discussion and shine al ight on the issues then it makes sense to do it.

That's basically what I'm trying to refer to. I agree with this.

spineduke · Oct 17, 2018

Hodgy said:
what would be the purpose?

there is no point in boycotting the game as:

1. The boycott wont be widespread enough
2. The only people that actually get hurt by a boycott would be the devs doing the crunch
3. The devs still want you to play their game.

I say this as a dev that has done lots of crunch in the past.

The answer is regulation and labor laws, tell your representatives.

Of course there's a point - at least on a personal level, a boycott is an affirmation of your own convictions. Maybe it won't help one damn bit, but at least you know that YOU did your part in caring. Don't support malicious practices and care for the welfare of others.

Nateo · Oct 17, 2018

Dark Ninja said:
30 min for a break is pretty long usually you are allowed 10-15 min. 30 min to an hour is a lunch break so if the people who were just hanging out at the kitchen conversing on company time I can see why the higher ups would be mad. If you are working crunch you usually have a lunch and dinner break available. They should have just coordinated their breaks together if they really wanted to have cake.

That is for 8 hours days. They were not working 8 hour days.

Skronk · Oct 17, 2018

-Devious- said:
It will never get a huge following or turn into something large if people don't voice their concern and outrage. You are essentially shutting it down before it turns into something bigger. The point is to be able to point to said exploitation and be conscious of it. With the hopes of it gaining traction.

Totally agree. The fact that we're talking about it at all is good but we do need to keep going.

Waypoint were asking developer representatives at E3 about crunch and most of them avoided the question or were totally unprepared for it. The games press needs to keep up the pressure because some highers ups are clearly proud of their crunch practices while the workers are suffering with the consequences.

Adobe · Oct 17, 2018

What a shitty company, gonna get RDR2 anyways:(

gschmidl · Oct 17, 2018

I have never played R*'s toxic, joyless, childish garbage games, and I will continue not to, so count me as a boycotter, I guess.

SixelAlexiS · Oct 17, 2018

Dark Ninja said:
30 min for a break is pretty long usually you are allowed 10-15 min. 30 min to an hour is a lunch break so if the people who were just hanging out at the kitchen conversing on company time I can see why the higher ups would be mad. If you are working crunch you usually have a lunch and dinner break available. They should have just coordinated their breaks together if they really wanted to have cake.

30 minutes ONCE a WEEK! Are you crazy or what? It wasn't like every day... this is mental.

L.A. Noire Crunch Culture, Bondi issues, RockStar Boss chimes in #NoCakeDay

Literally Cinderella

SNK Gaming Division Studio 1

Alt-Account.

Alt-Account.

Alt-Account.

Alt-Account.

User requested account closure

Alt-Account.

Alt-Account.

I love pineapple on pizza!

User requested account closure

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account