Zen Studios censors Williams table and will censor more in the future.

Dynamite Cop · Oct 15, 2018

I used to work for a large publisher a few years ago.

When a game is in development, you submit a build as close to the final product as possible, along with a list of everything that could be attributed to the game's rating.

ESRB then reviews the build, notes every single instance of nudity, violence against humans/animals/beasts, drugs, etc.. and then gets back to the publisher with what rating will be attached to the game at the state it was submitted to them. Publishers are then 100% in control of any changes they choose to make to the title in order to keep, increase, or decrease the rating given, assuming they want to pay for another submission to the ESRB.

Any changes made to the game were the publisher's decision. ESRB does not force anything other than the rating that goes with the finished product-which the publisher agrees on.

potentialtodisplease · Oct 15, 2018

Dynamite Cop said:
I used to work for a large publisher a few years ago.

When a game is in development, you submit a build as close to the final product as possible, along with a list of everything that could be attributed to the game's rating.

ESRB then reviews the build, notes every single instance of nudity, violence against humans/animals/beasts, drugs, etc.. and then gets back to the publisher with what rating will be attached to the game at the state it was submitted to them. Publishers are then 100% in control of any changes they choose to make to the title in order to keep, increase, or decrease the rating given, assuming they want to pay for another submission to the ESRB.

Any changes made to the game were the publisher's decision. ESRB does not force anything other than the rating that goes with the finished product-which the publisher agrees on.

Yes, we are well aware of that.

Nobody said the ESRB is making the changes for them, hence the idea of self-censorship. The ESRB is still a form of censorship though. They operate a rating system that seeks to suppress information to different aged groups.

1upsuper · Oct 15, 2018

This editing is quite unfortunate from a preservationist standpoint, especially considering how ridiculously conservative Zen is being. Hopefully they'll end up releasing restored versions of the tables separately.

Nuclear Muffin · Oct 15, 2018

Pretty poor handling of the situation from Zen. These tables are being advertised as accurate digital recreations of classic real-life tables and this flies in the face of that. It's especially bad because they killed another developer's project in order to get the rights to do their own take on them.

There's nothing wrong with providing a censored version of these tables for a wider audience, but it should not be coming at the expense of the original uncensored version; especially if they are claiming this to be an accurate recreation of these classic tables.

If they want to reach a younger audience with the Pinball FX brand, then really should be offering two seperate products, a censored version that fits within the E10+ rating and an uncensored version with a higher rating to match.

As it is, the product is not what is being advertised.

extralite · Oct 15, 2018

Jamesac68 said:
Sorry, it's honestly not. The government didn't make Zen remove the content. Zen made Zen remove the content. Therefore, editing. I agree with everything else you said, it's just that censorship is a very specific circumstance.

So you think self-censorship isn't censoring? Nothing in the definition of censoring requires it to be done by the government.

TSM · Oct 15, 2018

At least we are aware now. They can basically be considered a new version of the original tables instead of an accurate recreation, and can be purcahsed with that in mind.

Wiped · Oct 15, 2018

Edit: ignore me

Keldroc · Oct 15, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Sorry, but per the definition of censorship you are logically 100% wrong. No idea why you even mention the government as if the government is the only entity capable of censorship lol.

Because it is. The definition in the dictionary includes the stupid "editing choice I don't agree with" definition because people use it regularly, much like they use "literally" to mean "figuratively." Dictionaries reflect usage, they don't determine language as correct or incorrect. But censorship is a government action, or at least an action forced by a ruling body that can enact punitive measures against someone who does not comply with it. This isn't the case here, it's a content publisher making an editorial decision you disagree with. It's not censorship, will never be censorship. You're wrong and using hyperbole to make a very silly thing seem more serious.

extralite · Oct 15, 2018

Keldroc said:
Because it is. The definition in the dictionary includes the stupid "editing choice I don't agree with" definition because people use it regularly, much like they use "literally" to mean "figuratively." Dictionaries reflect usage, they don't determine language as correct or incorrect. But censorship is a government action, or at least an action forced by a ruling body that can enact punitive measures against someone who does not comply with it. This isn't the case here, it's a content publisher making an editorial decision you disagree with. It's not censorship, will never be censorship. You're wrong and using hyperbole to make a very silly thing seem more serious.

Who does then? Trust me, the only place where you get judged on correct word usage (school!), they use dictionaries to decide what is correct.

Edit: It is true though that linguists and people who compile dictionaries aren't really concerned much with "correct" word usage, they really only document (describe, not prescribe) how words are used. Language works based on concensus, if the speaker and listener are on the same page on what a word means the listener will understand the speaker's meaning (which you did, btw).

If the listener doesn't understand a word, or only knows it in a meaning that doesn't make sense in that instance, they can look it up in a dictionary, reading all the definitions which then enables them to understand. So while there aren't really any incorrect word usages (only ones that can't be understood), dictionaries only contain "correct" word usages (ones which are widely used and understood).

Your suggested replacement for censorship with editing is not really an option. Editing is neutral, it doesn't necessarily mean that something is lost. So while all censorship is also editing, editing in this example doesn't express the reason why OP is pissed. So censor is the better word choice here as it is more specific.

BassForever · Oct 15, 2018

Slam Tilt said:
If I take Red Dead Redemption 2, then ported it to the Switch with 16 colors, 30fps, and 240p resolution, do you think most folks on the forum would be okay with that as long as the actual gameplay and physics are preserved?

Yes? Have you seen the people who want everything on switch?

nel e nel · Oct 15, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Yes, the ESRB governs the ratings of their games, hence the security of Zen Studios finances. They censored their image to retain a kid-friendly rating. You can try and twist this all you want, but it's not going to work.

Yes, ESRB has guidelines for content. They said you can't have that image at that rating. They are governing them, but they also give them a choice so ultimately one cannot say the ESRB censors anything. But Zen indeed has censored their own content to abide by a rating. Their is nothing illogical about those statements.

The ESRB is not a government institution. They are an independent industry group that was formed to prevent exactly that: federal involvement of rating video games.

You keep talking about word twisting and logic but you keep failing to understand some very simple concepts that are being discussed.

spineduke · Oct 15, 2018

sorry not sorry OP, its not censorship.

its a dumb decision but i understand why they went through with it.

Fortinbras · Oct 15, 2018

Thanks for the warning OP, Almost bought the pack today.

TSM · Oct 15, 2018

It's ironic. A thread about pedants obsessing about minor art work changes being derailed by pedants obsessed with the definition of the word censor.

potentialtodisplease · Oct 15, 2018

nel e nel said:
The ESRB is not a government institution. They are an independent industry group that was formed to prevent exactly that: federal involvement of rating video games.

You keep talking about word twisting and logic but you keep failing to understand some very simple concepts that are being discussed.

Yeah, nobody said they were the government. More poor logic injected into an argument to make it look better. They do govern something though, so I am not sure how you take the word govern to literally mean the government. That's not how words work bud. They hold power over ratings, hence financial prospects. And the ESRB is actually a form of censorship based on age tiers and developmental abilities.

The whole point of the ESRB is to censor anything they deem not right for certain age groups.

I've already made my point coherently and concisely in other posts. I'm not gonna waste my time making it anymore. This is not editing. The art in question was censored to abide by a group of people that hold control over the security of the company through a ratings system.

Editing is a term the far left might use in place of censorship, much like a fascist would use another term to hide the true extent of censorship. Anybody trying to perpetrate the word editing here is being ridiculous. You don't edit out images on your own with no basis in that editing. The editing done here is for reasons of content that do not abide by the censor's ratings system.

They don't violate the rating system, as we have AO rated games, but they do affect the security of the company in this way, and the art is being censored because it does not abide by a children's rating, which is in itself a form of censorship based on age-related development. The idea that children cannot see a cigar in a game is formulated ONLY through censorship. Is is that very board, the ESRB, that chooses what is okay and what is not okay to see at that rating.

Basically, you self-censor to agree with the censor's rating system. Not too hard to comprehend. Editing is a neutral behavior. What is done here is not neutral at all.

Agent 47 · Oct 15, 2018

Edit:nevermind

nel e nel · Oct 15, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Yeah, nobody said they were the government.

Actually, you did:

potentialtodisplease said:
The government in this case is the ratings board. They must censor their product to abide by an arbitrary rating. It's really that simple in this case.

Everything is arbitrary at some level, but the ESRB have pretty cut and dry guidelines for each rating.

potentialtodisplease said:
Editing is a term the far left might use in place of censorship, much like a fascist would use another term to hide the true extent of censorship.

Wow.

erikNORML · Oct 15, 2018

TIL pinball fankids are real and they get really worked up about the weirdest things. I never would've even noticed the art changes even if they were side by side.

potentialtodisplease · Oct 15, 2018

erikNORML said:
TIL pinball fankids are real and they get really worked up about the weirdest things. I never would've even noticed the art changes even if they were side by side.

Yes, because you can barely notice a piece of historical detail the "fankids" are bad. People that care about pinball are fankids. You heard it here. Half of these people are probably nearly double your age.

Fredrik · Oct 15, 2018

Is there a before and after comparison somewhere showing exactly what they've removed?

Pellegri Testament · Oct 15, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Editing is a term the far left might use in place of censorship, much like a fascist would use another term to hide the true extent of censorship. Anybody trying to perpetrate the word editing here is being ridiculous. You don't edit out images on your own with no basis in that editing. The editing done here is for reasons of content that do not abide by the censor's ratings system.

Be honest here, you're not here to argue about pinball, are you? Do you not like it when your lolis are forced to wear a bit more clothing or when molestation minigames are taken out?

TheUnseenTheUnheard · Oct 15, 2018

We need a competitor.

HardTimesFamilyPride · Oct 15, 2018

I get the frustration from a preservation standpoint, and in that regard it is definitely a let-down, but this thread has so much of a hardline "all forms of censorship are inherently bad (which is likely why the term 'censorship' is being used so vehemently)" framing to it that I can't help but laugh at the whole thing

potentialtodisplease · Oct 16, 2018

Pellegri Testament said:
Be honest here, you're not here to argue about pinball, are you? Do you not like it when your lolis are forced to wear a bit more clothing or when molestation minigames are taken out?

I have no idea about this post.

spineduke · Oct 16, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
I get the frustration from a preservation standpoint, and in that regard it is definitely a let-down, but this thread has so much of a hardline "all forms of censorship are inherently bad (which is likely why the term 'censorship' is being used so vehemently)" framing to it that I can't help but laugh at the whole thing

Same - I'm usually a stickler for preservation, but the way its framed here is embarrassingly close to how most gamers get upset about a character getting more clothes on a female character. It's not a very mature response, to say the least.

extralite · Oct 16, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
I get the frustration from a preservation standpoint, and in that regard it is definitely a let-down, but this thread has so much of a hardline "all forms of censorship are inherently bad (which is likely why the term 'censorship' is being used so vehemently)" framing to it that I can't help but laugh at the whole thing

I don't think censorship is inherently bad but not being able to call a thing by its name (and thus admitting that you're in favor of censorship in certain cases) is dishonest and an attempt to paint something better than it is. I mean, if you didn't think it's bad to censor why not admit to doing it?

HardTimesFamilyPride · Oct 16, 2018

extralite said:
I don't think censorship is inherently bad but not being able to call a thing by its name (and thus admitting that you're in favor of censorship in certain cases) is dishonest and an attempt to paint something better than it is. I mean, if you didn't think it's bad to censor why not admit to doing it?

I mean, you're not wrong but this goes both ways. OP is obviously not using the term in a neutral sense and it's going to affect how people respond to it, especially in this day & age. He has responsibility here too and he's squandered it by attacking this in the same way a freeze peach obsessor would. *shrug*

EDIT: Some people also don't encounter the word outside of discussions regarding gov't censorship

Plinko · Oct 16, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Yes, because you can barely notice a piece of historical detail the "fankids" are bad. People that care about pinball are fankids. You heard it here. Half of these people are probably nearly double your age.

I care greatly about pinball, and what Zen is doing doesn't bother me in the least. It's a non-issue to me.

lazygecko · Oct 16, 2018

Triggerhappytel said:
Am I supposed to be looking at his bulge or his weird hand?!

You're supposed to be looking at the high velocity broken headlight glass heading straight for Ryu's crotch.

Burai · Oct 16, 2018

Durante said:
That's pretty shit for a product like this where the whole point is preservation of these old tables.

I don't think that's ever been the point of Pinball FX. Pinball Arcade, sure. Visual PinMAME, definitely. Pinball FX, no.

Deleted member 18944 · Oct 16, 2018

It seems like lots of people in this thread think censorship can only occur on a governmental level, which isn't true. At all. There is such a thing as corporate censorship.

While I do find OP's title to be sensationalized, he is technically using censorship correctly.

extralite · Oct 16, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
I mean, you're not wrong but this goes both ways. OP is obviously not using the term in a neutral sense and it's going to affect how people respond to it, especially in this day & age. He has responsibility here too and he's squandered it by attacking this in the same way a freeze peach obsessor would. *shrug*

EDIT: Some people also don't encounter the word outside of discussions regarding gov't censorship

OP used the word according to its meaning, what else should they have said?

In this instance the question of censorship being good, bad or neither is mostly subjective. If you wanted the original design to remain intact, it's bad. If you're glad it's gone (because it was objectionable to you), it's good. I personally don't care either way. However, no matter your conclusion, this is censorship. It doesn't matter if you welcome or lament it, or couldn't care less.

IMO, censorship is objectively bad when it is forced upon someone by an outside force, like the government, but also a mob of bullies. Self censorship (like Zen Studios did, apparently to get a lower age rating) is perfectly okay. As they have the rights to what they publish, they can do it in whatever way they want.

But that doesn't mean that OP as a customer has to be satisfied with what is offered to them for purchase. If OP would have preferred an uncensored version, they have every right to make themselves heard. Zen Studios has every right to ignore them.

hibikase · Oct 16, 2018

Farsight's licensing rights died for this.

Ugh.

ramoisdead · Oct 16, 2018

I'm actually surprised Zen Studios are still doing E10+ rated tables. You would think that they bump it up to T rated for Pinball FX3 not only for the Williams licensed tables but for any license they can grab that is more mature than E10+.

Besides, everyone already knows most of the video game pinball demo for these games skewer more towards the adult side than kids.

Li bur · Oct 16, 2018

I understand your concern, however every developer has every right to do whatever they wanted to do with their game and then in turns customer can always "vote with their wallet".

HardTimesFamilyPride · Oct 16, 2018

extralite said:
OP used the word according to its meaning, what else should they have said?

There are a bunch of different words and phrases that could be used to describe these changes being made that still accurately describe what's happening here. Let's not act like there hasn't already been a discussion about that ITT. But this is not about OP misusing the word. It's about the context around OP's usage of the word. Considering that many people don't encounter the word censorship outside of political discussions, and considering OP's conduct in this thread, I have a hard time believing they used the word (regardless of how accurate its usage here is) for any reason other than to paint this as some grave offense. This is backed up by OP's own responses in this thread.

I agree with the rest of your post but it has nothing to do with what I was saying. OP wants people to actually respond to his content, OP has a responsibility to not come off like a whiny teenager throwing a hissy fit.

extralite · Oct 16, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
There are a bunch of different words and phrases that could be used to describe these changes being made that still accurately describe what's happening here. Let's not act like there hasn't already been a discussion about that ITT. But this is not about OP misusing the word. It's about the context around OP's usage of the word. Considering that many people don't encounter the word censorship outside of political discussions, and considering OP's conduct in this thread, I have a hard time believing they used the word (regardless of how accurate its usage here is) for any reason other than to paint this as some grave offense. This is backed up by OP's own responses in this thread.

I agree with the rest of your post but it has nothing to do with what I was saying. OP wants people to actually respond to his content, OP has a responsibility to not come off like a whiny teenager throwing a hissy fit.

Do you even realize that you're trying to censor OP's word usage? You want to decide when people can use the word censor and when they cannot. You're displaying the objectively bad kind of censorship here.

People need to educate themselves and not attack others out of ignorance. That you defend the people who insist that something right is supposed to be wrong is terrible. Ends don't justify the means. Don't lie for your cause, it will sully it.

HardTimesFamilyPride · Oct 16, 2018

extralite said:
Do you even realize that you're trying to censor OP's word usage? You want to decide when people can use the word censor and when they cannot. You're displaying the objectively bad kind of censorship here.

People need to educate themselves and not attack others out of ignorance. That you defend the people who insist that something right is supposed to be wrong is terrible. Ends don't justify the means. Don't lie for your cause, it will sully it.

You are presuming that I'm telling the OP to not use the word "censor". I am not doing that. I was pointing out that OP's attitude is making people react strongly against what he is saying. You are the one who responded to me making this about the use of the word censorship. I have repeatedly tried to tell you that I am not talking about that. I said there are other words that he could have used - not should have used, in which case yes I would then be telling OP what words he can and cannot use. I said this in direct response to a question you asked me and for no other reason. Otherwise, I would have never mentioned it because, again, I was pointing out other things than word usage.

Why do you insist that I am doing what you say I am doing?

vixlar · Oct 16, 2018

The fisherman teeth, with the cigar, looks normal... Without the cigar it looks very creepy. lol

Deleted member 23381 · Oct 16, 2018

I couldn't think of a bigger non issue. The changes are so minor that I wouldn't even notice if the article didn't spell them out.

extralite · Oct 17, 2018

Yerba_Sutra said:
You are presuming that I'm telling the OP to not use the word "censor". I am not doing that. I was pointing out that OP's attitude is making people react strongly against what he is saying. You are the one who responded to me making this about the use of the word censorship. I have repeatedly tried to tell you that I am not talking about that. I said there are other words that he could have used - not should have used, in which case yes I would then be telling OP what words he can and cannot use. I said this in direct response to a question you asked me and for no other reason. Otherwise, I would have never mentioned it because, again, I was pointing out other things than word usage.

Why do you insist that I am doing what you say I am doing?

Sorry, I indeed accused you of doing something which the people you defend, not you yourself have done.

But the thing is, OP tackled a complex issue, made correct observations and also offered their opinion. You don't have to agree with that opinion but you should respect their right to state it. You certainly should respect the facts they stated.

When the only contribution to an discussion is to pretend a word doesn't mean what it means, it makes the people posting that look ignorant. And that also falls back on their cause, whatever that is.

So why exactly do you defend those posters, who only make themselves look bad? And OP good, as a result.

HardTimesFamilyPride · Oct 17, 2018

extralite said:
So why exactly do you defend those posters, who only make themselves look bad? And OP good, as a result.

I don't entertain "defense force" style commentary, sorry

potentialtodisplease · Oct 17, 2018

Halation Ablation said:
I couldn't think of a bigger non issue. The changes are so minor that I wouldn't even notice if the article didn't spell them out.

I don't think it's the point of what is going on that the changes are minor. I mean, maybe you would not care either if the changes were large. The point is changes like this are unacceptable to some people, and the reasoning behind the alterations seems to be: we are too lazy to make a properly rated game because kids buy our game in droves...

extralite · Oct 17, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
I don't think it's the point of what is going on that the changes are minor. I mean, maybe you would not care either if the changes were large. The point is changes like this are unacceptable to some people, and the reasoning behind the alterations seems to be: we are too lazy to make a properly rated game because kids buy our game in droves...

I just read the FAQ and calling devs lazy is against posting etiquette. I guess this also extends to publishers.

jerk · Oct 17, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
I don't think it's the point of what is going on that the changes are minor. I mean, maybe you would not care either if the changes were large. The point is changes like this are unacceptable to some people, and the reasoning behind the alterations seems to be: we are too lazy to make a properly rated game because kids buy our game in droves...

Are kids really buying classic pinball tables? As far as I knew their only popular tables are the 3D video gamey tables based on current day franchises and the like.

If they were going to get the rights to these tables, you'd think they would have released it as a different rates add on, or game listing. I can't imagine there's much crossover between the audiences that want the modern game levels and classic pinball table simulations.

I don't really care about the censorship present thus far, but if it prevents tables like pinbot/whodunnit/etc to be released/be complete then pinball arcade losing the rights is even more baffling. Even if they're censored releases I would hope they'd get VR support and mods could take care of the rest.

Lothars · Oct 17, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
I don't think it's the point of what is going on that the changes are minor. I mean, maybe you would not care either if the changes were large. The point is changes like this are unacceptable to some people, and the reasoning behind the alterations seems to be: we are too lazy to make a properly rated game because kids buy our game in droves...

posts like this make no sense, saying lazy devs is a bad attempt at trolling at best. If the dev and publisher decided to keep the rating maybe it has to do with table sales forecasts but we can hope it that it gets reassessed for this versions of the table and I'd hope anyone that wants the table without the changes will let them know and ideally they will either release the tables without the changes as a related pack.

Slam Tilt · Oct 17, 2018

Halation Ablation said:
I couldn't think of a bigger non issue. The changes are so minor that I wouldn't even notice if the article didn't spell them out.

I agree that the changes in Fish Tale are minor; I'm more concerned about how this policy will impact other games they might release. There's a lot of stuff in Medieval Madness that might be changed/censored to stay E10, for instance, while stuff like the Elvira tables or Bride of Pin*Bot might just stay unreleased due to the numerous changes required.

Keldroc · Oct 17, 2018

extralite said:
Who does then? Trust me, the only place where you get judged on correct word usage (school!), they use dictionaries to decide what is correct.

Edit: It is true though that linguists and people who compile dictionaries aren't really concerned much with "correct" word usage, they really only document (describe, not prescribe) how words are used. Language works based on concensus, if the speaker and listener are on the same page on what a word means the listener will understand the speaker's meaning (which you did, btw).

If the listener doesn't understand a word, or only knows it in a meaning that doesn't make sense in that instance, they can look it up in a dictionary, reading all the definitions which then enables them to understand. So while there aren't really any incorrect word usages (only ones that can't be understood), dictionaries only contain "correct" word usages (ones which are widely used and understood).

Your suggested replacement for censorship with editing is not really an option. Editing is neutral, it doesn't necessarily mean that something is lost. So while all censorship is also editing, editing in this example doesn't express the reason why OP is pissed. So censor is the better word choice here as it is more specific.

You are 100% completely wrong. "Censorship" does not fit this situation in the slightest and to claim otherwise is ignorant or disingenuous. Nobody forced their hand here, nobody is rounding up all the original tables and destroying the art, nobody is going back and patching old virtual releases of the tables and making the same content edits. This is not censorship to anyone but a fanboy who wants to push a narrative. Or someone who doesn't know what censorship is.

extralite · Oct 18, 2018

Keldroc said:
You are 100% completely wrong. "Censorship" does not fit this situation in the slightest and to claim otherwise is ignorant or disingenuous. Nobody forced their hand here, nobody is rounding up all the original tables and destroying the art, nobody is going back and patching old virtual releases of the tables and making the same content edits. This is not censorship to anyone but a fanboy who wants to push a narrative. Or someone who doesn't know what censorship is.

Did you calculate that number? Care to show us your methodology?

The points you list would apply to the issue of preservation, which also came up in the context of this thread. They don't apply to censorship. You don't get to decide what a word means.

I reported you for arguing in bad faith, right after you posted yesterday. You're also calling OP a fanboy, which is a personal attack. I wonder why the mods aren't reacting when you're clearly in violation of posting etiquette, in more ways than one.

I reported you again to be sure.

spineduke · Oct 18, 2018

extralite said:
Did you calculate that number? Care to show us your methodology?

The points you list would apply to the issue of preservation, which also came up in the context of this thread. They don't apply to censorship. You don't get to decide what a word means.

I reported you for arguing in bad faith, right after you posted yesterday. You're also calling OP a fanboy, which is a personal attack. I wonder why the mods aren't reacting when you're clearly in violation of posting etiquette, in more ways than one.

I reported you again to be sure.

Aren't you a spiteful one. It's not censorship if a company wants to abide by a previously attained age rating - they are free to publish the game under a different rating. Logistically and legally ,its a huge headache for them to go ahead and switch over - If they could have changed it without consequence, they would have already done so.

Zen Studios censors Williams table and will censor more in the future.

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