• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Sorry I might sound a bit ranty but it's annoying going into this thread where you see people claiming that anyone who isn't against MTXs as corporate shills, while the person who made 3 threads on ACO and Ubisoft for their MTXs has been in the Rockstar thread claiming we are making a big deal over one little statement from the owner of Rockstar, as well as a person not backing down from suggesting that the Witcher 3 is how the gaming industry should do things, make me want to bang my head against the wall.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
Sorry I might sound a bit ranty but it's annoying going into this thread where you see people claiming that anyone who isn't against MTXs as corporate shills, while the person who made 3 threads on ACO and Ubisoft for their MTXs has been in the Rockstar thread claiming we are making a big deal over one little statement from the owner of Rockstar, as well as a person not backing down from suggesting that the Witcher 3 is how the gaming industry should do things, make me want to bang my head against the wall.
Oh absolutely. Like I said much earlier. When it comes to certain topics, era is fantastic, (representation, diversity, lgbt) with others it's only slightly better than the average r/gaming and gamefaqs thread because the occasional dev chimes in and there are people who disagree due to being informed.

Kindof ironic that Ubi copied everything about the Witcher 3 they could except for the game's monetization.
And the working conditions.
And no, the witcher 3 influence is clear hell quest designers from that game worked on the new ACs. But the two are structurally very very different. That's the benefit of something being influential.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Kindof ironic that Ubi copied everything about the Witcher 3 they could except for the game's monetization.
They didn't copy the work conditions. Ubisoft is actually known as one of the best in the industry for work conditions while when the bad Glassdoor reviews broke for CDPR they didn't deny them and basically said "if you didn't like the heat get out of the kitchen". A constant crunch studio. They are probably doing similar hours to Rockstar. I guess that monetisation might make alot of difference, huh?
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
So, if microtransactions are used by already profitable companies, then they are being greedy and exploitative. And if microtransactions are used by companies to stay profitable, it's just because they planned it that way and they are greedy and exploitative. This reads a lot like either shifting the goal posts or just reframing any evidence to fit a predetermined judgment.

Not that I'm saying you are specifically making this argument, it just seems like a lot of people are avoiding discussing specifics or data and working really hard to find ways to discount any specifics or data that they don't like.

My argument is merely that if a company optimises for one profit route over another, in time, the changes in business focus might create the impression that business without this new route would not be viable but, that might be a self-perpetuating reality based on that self-same presumption.

Had recurrent spend models never become a part of the market would we have seen major publishers filing for bankruptcy? I'd imagine not.
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
So, if microtransactions are used by already profitable companies, then they are being greedy and exploitative. And if microtransactions are used by companies to stay profitable, it's just because they planned it that way and they are greedy and exploitative. This reads a lot like either shifting the goal posts or just reframing any evidence to fit a predetermined judgment.

Not that I'm saying you are specifically making this argument, it just seems like a lot of people are avoiding discussing specifics or data and working really hard to find ways to discount any specifics or data that they don't like.

This all begins from the claim that MTX is necessary to the success and continued profitability of video game companies.

If MTX are being used by companies that don't really need the money to pad out margins for their investors, then they're taking advantage of their customers and looking for more ways to expand their capital. Therefore, MTX is not necessary in the sense that it is not rescuing the business from bankruptcy or any such thing. In many ways, this is the nature of all capitalistic endeavors: there is always a need for more space and more profit because that is literally the thing that drives the company's motives. They have to find new ways to get revenue out of their labor. Whether they need it or not, expansion into this territory is just another way companies increase the bottom line. This is rightly critiqued by tons of people from tons of different angles. One response to this model might be, "why does the bottom line always have to increase and why does that bottom line get moved upward, to CEOs, in a way that is mathematically disproportionate to the rest of the company?" There are other responses, of course, but to think that "this is just the way things are" is to be ignorant of alternate economic models, alternate hierarchies for running a business entity, and ignorant of history generally where the development of industrial economies is concerned.

If companies do need MTX because they themselves have designed their business model that way, then they're in a hole they dug for themselves. And they are, simultaneously, taking advantage of their customers. Plenty of companies have survived without MTX. If they feel they need it, there's a good chance they have allocated resources in such a way that a new revenue source was deemed necessary. This is sort of Finance 101: budgets, business models, and goals are set by executives, not derived from a magical formula that dictates a specific revenue stream is necessary. This could result from any number of variables, among them disproportionate payment to executives, poor management of time resources, poor working conditions and unrealistic timelines, greedy board members expecting exorbitant returns on their investments based on market variables that may have nothing to do with the video game industry, and so forth.

No goal posts have been moved, there is no pre-determined judgement. This is all based on how companies function, what we know about their operations, and about the gap between the way they sell things to investors and their audience vs. the way it plays out in terms of people's well-being, salaries, benefits, job security, and so on. The two readings of the use of MTX are endemic to one another.
 

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
Had recurrent spend models never become a part of the market would we have seen major publishers filing for bankruptcy? I'd imagine not.
I don't think it's hard to imagine that larger publishers would either have gone bankrupt, significantly scaled back investments in gaming, or left it entirely. I think those are totally possible options once you start placing artificial constraints on how businesses are allowed to be profitable. If there is a limit to how much businesses can grow in an industry, then people are going to go elsewhere looking for that growth and gaming stagnates. Which if you are a fan of the indie gaming scene and more niche titles, that probably sounds awesome, but I doubt everyone would agree.
 

NullPointer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,171
Mars
They didn't copy the work conditions. Ubisoft is actually known as one of the best in the industry for work conditions while when the bad Glassdoor reviews broke for CDPR they didn't deny them and basically said "if you didn't like the heat get out of the kitchen". A constant crunch studio. They are probably doing similar hours to Rockstar. I guess that monetisation might make alot of difference, huh?
I brought the Witcher and Origins story DLC up to answer Eden's straw man that all monetization is being treated as an evil. You're now taking that and running with it to suggest I'm for fucking over workers in order to get flashier games. Thats bullshit.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
I don't think it's hard to imagine that larger publishers would either have gone bankrupt, significantly scaled back investments in gaming, or left it entirely. I think those are totally possible options once you start placing artificial constraints on how businesses are allowed to be profitable. If there is a limit to how much businesses can grow in an industry, then people are going to go elsewhere looking for that growth and gaming stagnates. Which if you are a fan of the indie gaming scene and more niche titles, that probably sounds awesome, but I doubt everyone would agree.

I think that's something of an assumed conclusion and not one that is necessarily implied by data. Companies like EA traded and grew successfully for decades prior to the advent of recurrent transaction models.

Also, artificial constraints on how businesses are allowed to be profitable already exist in all industries - they're called laws.
 

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
No goal posts have been moved, there is no pre-determined judgement.
But there is a pre-determined judgment behind your post that MTX are a bad and greedy practice, and you've back filled your reasoning to support that initial judgment. You've singled out one approach to revenue as something only done in the name of greed and are using that as a crutch to hold up all your other points. If we replace the issue of MTX with say, the issue of a $60 price point instead of $50 (or $40, or $20, or $1), your post doesn't have to change and the arguments stay the same.

"$60 games" are being used by companies that don't really need the money to pad out margins for investors. The extra profit is just funneled to executives. They are just trying to increase profits like all capitalistic endeavors. If companies do need "$60 games" because they have designed their business model that way, well then they're in a hole they dug for themselves. And they are, simultaneously, taking advantage of their customers. Plenty of companies have survived without "$60 games". If they feel they need it, there's a good chance they have allocated resources in such a way that the revenue increase was necessary.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
I brought the Witcher and Origins story DLC up to answer Eden's straw man that all monetization is being treated as an evil. You're now taking that and running with it to suggest I'm for fucking over workers in order to get flashier games. Thats bullshit.
Except the Witcher's dlc is made on crunch, they work on in low wage company while paying not a good wage even then as well as being subsidised by GoG. ACOrigins has other monetisation as well as story DLC. Yes gamers don't complain about the Witcher 3 montisation but they ignore how it came to be in the first place too. It's not a viable way for most companies so why are you bringing it up as an example and keep sticking to it?
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
But there is a pre-determined judgment behind your post that MTX are a bad and greedy practice, and you've back filled your reasoning to support that initial judgment. You've singled out one approach to revenue as something only done in the name of greed and are using that as a crutch to hold up all your other points. If we replace the issue of MTX with say, the issue of a $60 price point instead of $50 (or $40, or $20, or $1), your post doesn't have to change and the arguments stay the same.

It's not pre-determined, it just looks that way because I'm arriving at a conclusion about these practices based on analogs in other industries, experience with corporate finance, and capital expansion. I do have a set of beliefs entering the conversation, but then so do you. I think that just puts us on equal conversational ground. This is true about most conversations.

I'm not sure I agree with you about substituting the issue, though I have to admit I don't fully understand what you mean. The relative value of a product as sold at market is a different issue than additional services and revenue packed into a product already sold for a pre-determined value. Value is also a murky thing, so we're getting into completely different territory. But in the interest of understanding, are you saying that MTX and MSRP are the same?

"$60 games" are being used by companies that don't really need the money to pad out margins for investors. The extra profit is just funneled to executives. They are just trying to increase profits like all capitalistic endeavors. If companies do need "$60 games" because they have designed their business model that way, well then they're in a hole they dug for themselves. And they are, simultaneously, taking advantage of their customers. Plenty of companies have survived without "$60 games". If they feel they need it, there's a good chance they have allocated resources in such a way that the revenue increase was necessary.

This requires a totally different analysis. The going price for a game is determined by a larger set of variables. I would not make the same argument for base price that I would make for MTX where a base price already exists. In fact, part of the issue is that MTX are added to the game with no known maximum spend. When someone sells you something for $60 (or $40 or $1), they are making a claim about the value of the product at market, the value of their labor, and the reasonable expectations for ROI. Add MTX to the mix and suddenly that equation is shattered: there's no known value, it's just a big black hole into which money is tossed to varying degrees depending on the user. This alone isn't wrong, but it puts the MTX into a category that is different from base price and hints at the difference between market value and the sense of greed packed into the idea of MTX from the start.
 

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
It's not pre-determined, it just looks that way because I'm arriving at a conclusion about these practices based on analogs in other industries, experience with corporate finance, and capital expansion. I'm not sure I agree with you about substituting the issue, though I have to admit I don't fully understand what you mean. The relative value of a product as solid at market is a different issue than additional services and revenue packed into a product already sold for a pre-determined value. Are you saying that MTX and MSRP are the same?
In this specific context my overall point is that I don't see your arguments as something specifically pointing to MTX as a bad thing, but that all capitalistic and profit driven businesses are a bad thing.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
There are no current laws against microtransactions, thus removing the option from a company would be considered an "artificial" constraint in my opinion.

It would be another constraint - one of thousands - and in that regard pretty unremarkable. I don't see why they should be given a particular protection from regulation any more than any thing else.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,931
My argument is merely that if a company optimises for one profit route over another, in time, the changes in business focus might create the impression that business without this new route would not be viable but, that might be a self-perpetuating reality based on that self-same presumption.

Had recurrent spend models never become a part of the market would we have seen major publishers filing for bankruptcy? I'd imagine not.
Last gen was a brutal period for the publishers. Acclaim went under, so did 3DO, and THQ, and Midway, and Disney closed dev studios and got out of AAA development, and Eidos were inches from bankruptcy before Square acquired them, and so on. From 2009 to 2013 EA had a net income of -$1,867M, and Take Two had a net income of -$162M. Their stock prices were in the crapper the whole time. It seems like some posters are suggesting there could have been some other paradigm instead of MTX that could have changed all of that? And that this idea, whatever it is. is something nobody in the industry thought to try?
 

ThankDougie

Banned
Nov 12, 2017
1,630
Buffalo
In this specific context my overall point is that I don't see your arguments as something specifically pointing to MTX as a bad thing, but that all capitalistic and profit driven businesses are a bad thing.

Hmm. That might be true in a limited way. I think capitalistic models are generally flawed because they necessitate accelerated consumption, though profit itself can be a good, especially if it is directed toward the well-being of all the people who make that profit possible.

MTX is a particularly egregious example of profit-seeking for reasons I state in my second paragraph (which I just edited). My main issue is that it puts the onus of profitability on continued consumption and not on business models that keep profit high in the name of the employees who make it all possible. Not only is efficiency sacrificed in the name of immediate profit, but executive and investor expectations actually push increasingly impossible expectations on an industry that might not be able to withstand the pressure. This need for continually bigger profits and bigger ROI is driven from the top and the bottom, but much of it comes from the top.

Nevertheless, there are clear differences between MTX and other market transactions where the total value of a product is packed into a single price. I actually wouldn't make the same analysis and, if anything, might argue that the relative value of a game is much higher than the $60 average (another problem with capitalism is that labor value is reduced to the lowest possible amount for the sake of profit. Why? Because if labor value isn't rock bottom, profitability is a total impossibility to begin with - capital only results from exploitation of labor, full stop). I suspect the market is stuck there for larger economic reasons, including a declining middle class and a hesitancy among consumers to expend on luxuries. It's something I'd want to read more about before saying anything definitive.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
But there is a pre-determined judgment behind your post that MTX are a bad and greedy practice, and you've back filled your reasoning to support that initial judgment. You've singled out one approach to revenue as something only done in the name of greed and are using that as a crutch to hold up all your other points. If we replace the issue of MTX with say, the issue of a $60 price point instead of $50 (or $40, or $20, or $1), your post doesn't have to change and the arguments stay the same.

"$60 games" are being used by companies that don't really need the money to pad out margins for investors. The extra profit is just funneled to executives. They are just trying to increase profits like all capitalistic endeavors. If companies do need "$60 games" because they have designed their business model that way, well then they're in a hole they dug for themselves. And they are, simultaneously, taking advantage of their customers. Plenty of companies have survived without "$60 games". If they feel they need it, there's a good chance they have allocated resources in such a way that the revenue increase was necessary.

This doesn't hold up either: the true 'value' of a game is determined by what consumers are willing to pay for it. A company has to work within these constraints to remain successful.

If you know that a game won't sell for more than $60 then you have to budget accordingly to ensure your product is both competitive and cost effective. If the games you make would need to sell at $100 to be cost effective then you're budgeting badly. If your putting out a game that looks two generations out of date and can be completed in under two hours and charging $60 then you're not being competitive - again, you're doing something wrong.

Competition keeps all of this balance and assuming everyone is subject to the legal constraints, everyone should get value for money.

MTX aren't subject to any of this and represent a completely untested, unregulated economy which is probably why they're so insanely profitable.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
I was searching for a thread on the recent Rockstar tweet boasting that they have their programmers on a leash working 100 hours a week to 'release on time'. Which benefits only the executives and their bonuses.

Completely disgusting, I know that it is nearly impossible to buy a game of which programmers did not have to go through this (Japanese games aahhhh) but to actually boast about it on social? Nah fuck you Rockstar.

I really can't comprehend how you can be proud to have people destroying their lives for crumbs. Thanks for slaving for me programmers, i'm going to enjoy riding this digital horse so much more knowing that you were thrown into crippling depression to entertain me!

please don't link me examples of japanese devs doing the same i still want to play my games
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
Last gen was a brutal period for the publishers. Acclaim went under, so did 3DO, and THQ, and Midway, and Disney closed dev studios and got out of AAA development, and Eidos were inches from bankruptcy before Square acquired them, and so on. From 2009 to 2013 EA had a net income of -$1,867M, and Take Two had a net income of -$162M. Their stock prices were in the crapper the whole time. It seems like some posters are suggesting there could have been some other paradigm instead of MTX that could have changed all of that? And that this idea, whatever it is. is something nobody in the industry thought to try?

The only way to save video games was to create a new paradigm of artificial value (you know, while Nintendo were giggling all the way to the bank selling regular old consoles and games).
 

Goronmon

Member
Nov 9, 2017
639
MTX is a particularly egregious example of profit-seeking for reasons I state in my second paragraph (which I just edited).
I guess for me, personally, I don't see it as particularly egregious, any more than larger transactions such as expansions, or say an increase in the base price of a a given game. It just comes down to judging individual games on their content and value.

The rest of your post made sense, so I don't mean to single out that sentence above other than the fact that it was the only part I had anything worth saying anything about, haha.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,931
The only way to save video games was to create a new paradigm of artificial value (you know, while Nintendo were giggling all the way to the bank selling regular old consoles and games).
What do you mean? Nintendo sell packs of cardboard for $80 each, and third party publishers rarely have big success on Nintendo consoles. Are you suggesting Sony and MS shouldn't have made more powerful consoles? How is that the fault of the other publishers? That's the market they have, and the buyers of those consoles expect their games to look good, which costs money. If MTX was the wrong answer, what is the paradigm you speak of?
 

Deleted member 48436

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
62
jim sterling is one person i can think of whos repeating the same stuff all over again and is consistently correct about it
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
The only way to save video games was to create a new paradigm of artificial value (you know, while Nintendo were giggling all the way to the bank selling regular old consoles and games).

What do you think the venn diagram intersection of people who bagged on Nintendo for 'underpowered' hardware in the wii generation and who are bagging on AAA publishers today for chasing graphical fidelity 'nobody asked for' today looks like?
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,434
Sweden
What do you mean? Nintendo sell packs of cardboard for $80 each, and third party publishers rarely have big success on Nintendo consoles. Are you suggesting Sony and MS shouldn't have made more powerful consoles? How is that the fault of the other publishers? That's the market they have, and the buyers of those consoles expect their games to look good, which costs money. If MTX was the wrong answer, what is the paradigm you speak of?
no i think they're saying that certain publishers (nintendo, implied: sony but he's trying to be humble because he works there) manage to release single player games not filled to the brim with exploitative monetization. so it is indeed possible, if you know what you're doing

(then again: this point misses that first party publishers have certain structural advantages over third party publishers; still, it holds true for certain third party publishers as well, specifically japanese ones and self-published indies)
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
What do you mean? Nintendo sell packs of cardboard for $80 each, and third party publishers rarely have big success on Nintendo consoles. Are you suggesting Sony and MS shouldn't have made more powerful consoles? How is that the fault of the other publishers? That's the market they have, and the buyers of those consoles expect their games to look good, which costs money. If MTX was the wrong answer, what is the paradigm you speak of?

I'm talking about the brutal last generation and the ridiculous success of the Wii and all of its first party software.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
no i think they're saying that certain publishers (nintendo, implied: sony but he's trying to be humble because he works there) manage to release single player games not filled to the brim with exploitative monetization. so it is indeed possible, if you know what you're doing

Sony - and any other platform owner - don't 'need' to fill games full of "exploitative monetization" when the money from 1 in every 3 lootboxes / MTX purchases / DLC goes straight into their pocket and not a publishers.
Third parties literally do not have that luxury.

Let me make that clear; Sony have made more money from MTX on the PS4 than EA, Ubisoft and Activision have, combined.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,434
Sweden
Sony - and any other platform owner - don't 'need' to fill games full of "exploitative monetization" when the money from 1 in every 3 lootboxes / MTX purchases / DLC goes straight into their pocket and not a publishers.
Third parties literally do not have that luxury.
yes, i addressed this in my post:
(then again: this point misses that first party publishers have certain structural advantages over third party publishers; still, it holds true for certain third party publishers as well, specifically japanese ones and self-published indies)
don't know why you'd ignore that part
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
27,931
I'm talking about the brutal last generation and the ridiculous success of the Wii and all of its first party software.
I see. So if I may, the business plan being proposed here for third party pubs to do well without MTX basically boils down to:

1. Don't do MTX, it's evil.
2. ?????????
3. Profit!

I'm not sure how that would have helped all those bankrupt publishers, or prevented the share prices from the survivors being in the crapper while they lost money.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
I see. So if I may, the business plan being proposed here for third party pubs to do well without MTX basically boils down to:

1. Don't do MTX, it's evil.
2. ?????????
3. Profit!

I'm not sure how that would have helped all those bankrupt publishers, or prevented the share prices from the survivors being in the crapper while they lost money.

This statement is slightly bizarre in a world where the one of the most profitable and popular games on the planet is free to play and whose micro-transactions have no element of chance and are entirely cosmetic.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
I think some here should crreate one and only thread about how AC Odyssey is bad and how Ubisoft need to stop videogames for the sake of the industry
Oh and also about those awful gamers who played AC Odyssey. I mean. They have shitty taste, we need to save them with RDR2 right?

Stop using Jim or others to spit your rants against Assassin's Creed. Create one unique topic.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,013
UK
I think some here should crreate one and only thread about how AC Odyssey is bad and how Ubisoft need to stop videogames for the sake of the industry
Oh and also about those awful gamers who played AC Odyssey. I mean. They have shitty taste, we need to save them with RDR2 right?

Stop using Jim or others to spit your rants against Assassin's Creed. Create one unique topic.

What if you like Assassin's Creed but dislike some aspects of the way the most recent game is monitised?

I think it's a shame a lot of discourse always comes down to "well you're just a shill" or "you just hate this specific publisher"

I think a lot of people enjoy and look forward to a lot of AAA games, but that doesn't mean they have to like every aspect of them, or the way they're being sold. That doesn't mean they have a vendetta against the company. It's also possible to love a game and not lose your shit at anyone being even slightly negative towards any aspect of it, no matter how inane or inconsequential you think their issue is
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
I mean, not only is Jim's shtick boring but it's becoming borderline stupid now. You're chastising publishers for practising capitalism, something most companies engage in on a daily basis.

You're effectively saying that companies shouldn't be making more money than they need to stay operationally fit.
I for one embrace our corporate overlords.

It's not about participating in capitalism. It's about expecting publishers and devs to behave as ethically as possible and holding their feet to the fire when they don't.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Okay.

From the horse's mouth:



https://www.hellblade.com/the-independent-aaa-proposition/








Hellblade was big risk and it was one funded by other work-for-hire (like Disney Infinity, which was shut down), tax breaks, and loans. And that was for under 20 people working on a game they were aiming to be 6-8 hours long, cutting as many corners as possible. (Their dev diaries show many of the kludges and fixes needed to make it work.) That cost $10 million. Three months in, Hellblade had a gross of $13 million. $3 million in profit, which seemingly wouldn't fund a year in dev.

And from the video, their reason for joining Microsoft:


And it behooves us to ask why Microsoft has the money to provide those resources, and the practices that lead to that initial pool of cash.


Thank you for posting this, I got really tired of people using Hellblade as some proof that "if games like that could be successful why are big publishers having trouble being profitable?!"
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
no i think they're saying that certain publishers (nintendo, implied: sony but he's trying to be humble because he works there) manage to release single player games not filled to the brim with exploitative monetization. so it is indeed possible, if you know what you're doing

(then again: this point misses that first party publishers have certain structural advantages over third party publishers; still, it holds true for certain third party publishers as well, specifically japanese ones and self-published indies)
Nintendo games are filled with cosmetic MTXs that are extremely overpriced and are exclusively tied to a poorly stocked piece of plastic.
Uncharted 4 still has lootboxes.
 

Kylo Rey

Banned
Dec 17, 2017
3,442
no there is not. whatever words you use to dress up "capitalism", it's still capitalism.

no there is multiple capitalism system. This is not a political demo vs rep debate.
Many tribes have some capitalism system, very different than our occidental?

Capitalism doesn't equal "trump cash machine"
 

SegFault

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,939
no there is multiple capitalism system. This is not a political demo vs rep debate.
Many tribes have some capitalism system, very different than our occidental?

Capitalism doesn't equal "trump cash machine"

capitalism has a defined definition. Any other "versions" of capitalism are just capitalism.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,434
Sweden
Nintendo games are filled with cosmetic MTXs that are extremely overpriced and are exclusively tied to a poorly stocked piece of plastic.
Uncharted 4 still has lootboxes.
yes i know both of those

i've almost given up on getting people to care about the shittiness of amiibo. they seem to be popular for whatever reason. and what naughty dogs is doing with lootboxes is shitty, but that's just one game out of many in sony's catalogue. (gran turismo sports is another one with shitty monetization systems.) the point is, the percentage of their games that have shitty monetization systems is much lower than among most of their competitors
 
Last edited:

kaiush

Member
Jan 22, 2018
298
I agree that developers should be paid more and treated better. However, it's naive to say that publishers should basically be leaving money on the table because "they don't need it". If people will buy the MTX and the lost sales because of them don't outweigh the profit of them, publishers can and will implement them and I think that's fine. The consumers, as a whole, decide what is acceptable - always have and always will. We are doing this. When you buy games with MTX, whether you purchase those MTX or not, you are supporting it.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Mega corporations putting billions into making toys for grown ups because of profits...and we're playing victim here?

Sorry Jim, this is just turrible.

Turrible!

As consumers, we should demand honesty, transparency and yeah...stand up for each other in regards to working conditions.

I'm pretty liberal and hated the tax cut we gave in the US...but also reasonable enough to admit that without capitalism, there is no reason for a videogame industry to exist. You're talking about billions invested into digital toys. You aren't going to make that case to your government to support. We need cures to cancer and better education before we need to stop microtransactions. Today you get more bang for your entertainment buck than ever before because of the potential for lucrative profits due to service models. Some make out big. Others fail. It's enough potential for many companies to play the game...and for consumer to benefit.

If you feel shafted in regards to value, don't buy. You see what happened to EA.

Don't purchase the bullshit. Support good values. Getting on these soap boxes against capitalism sounds really dumb when you turn around and advocate for companies to continue to invest in multimillion dollar toys.