Rockstar employees were working "100 hour weeks" for RDR 2 [UPDATE: Rockstar's response]

Paul · Oct 15, 2018

EatChildren said:
You do with 1000 dudes working 40 hours a week for an accommodating production period.

Crunch is cramming. That's what it comes down to. Rockstar has X production expectations, management requests development and implementation of Y features/content, and producers/shareholders expect the entire work to be completed in Z time. The issue with crunch is fundamentally at the core of shareholder/funding versus management inconsistencies, the former delegating an often strict limitation on time and money, and the latter poorly managing that time/money versus intended scope. If Rockstar scaled back their ambition and detail, there would be little to no crunch in Red Dead Redemption 2's existing production cycle. If shareholders were willing to extend funding and budget and move the release date, you'd still get the same ambition and detail with little to no crunch.

Cramming is the worst of managers/producers overreaching and over-promising at the cost of day-to-day staff.

I wonder how long RDR2 would take to develop at its current quality level if it was mandated to work 40 hour weeks with zero overtime. An extra year, two? That doesn't seem that bad. Although..making one game 8-9 years is quite extreme.
They already delayed it by a full year...but this can also be solved by simply not announcing release date until the game is 99% finished and you are sure you will hit it.

Of course, there are companies that do not have Rockstar's coffers and have two choices:

1) crunch
2) go bankrupt

In which case I am not against crunch on principle, if the developers are compensated.

hanmik · Oct 15, 2018

John Konstantin said:
Well, you and me are here, on Resetera, and we do have a general idea of the work conditions on the videogame industry, right?. But ok, let's take the case of the naive guy who goes into the industry without knowing. You don't quit a job the first day unless something really awful happens, I accept that. But what about after the first month?, second month?, third month?. Once you are inside you talk with your coworkers and you learn that's how things are. If you accept the conditions and continue to work there it's because you think it's worth it. It's a choice. You may not agree with it but not everybody has the same life priorities.

I'm going to be honest. If I had the opportunity and the necessary skills (which I don't) to have an important job at Nintendo, Rockstar, Naughty dog or any of the other great devs, I would take it. Of course, I would complain to my friends about the long hours and earning less that I do now but it would be worth it. Just to be able to say that you took a part on making something like RDR 2, BOTW or TLOU 2. Something that is enjoyed and brings a smile to millions of people around the world. That matters. And I wouldn't like you or others to get angry on my behalf, because it would be my choice.

Really guys, shouldn't we be focused on improving work conditions for people who work awful, terrible paid jobs out of necessity instead of out of choice?.

I get your point.. and I even asked him some questions about it..

javac · Oct 15, 2018

Yeah but the graphics are good, goty or something.

AgainstTheCurrent · Oct 15, 2018

ned_ballad said:
If they're salary, they're getting paid exactly the same amount of money had they only worked the normal 8 hours

Well then that's wrong.

I've said from the start of this thread that overtime should mean more pay and extra rest once it's over.

But everyone keeps jumping on that first post without reading any of my other posts. Too eager to look progressive without thinking.

Bloodbathnbyond · Oct 15, 2018

I'm sure when they interviewed for the position, they were aware that Rockstar create incredibly complex games that take years, and thousands of man hours, to create. If they aren't being compensated for it, then yes there is an argument. Something tells me they are being compensated well (not to mention what having that experience does for your resume). Some people are ok with working long hours. Why is that a bad thing?

justiceiro · Oct 15, 2018

I just wish there was some company out there making games as good as them and without treating their employees that way. Showing that there are another ways to be on the top is what would make a bigger difference, in the end.

dimasok · Oct 15, 2018

Not to worry because people here already pointed out that the soup doesnt look detailed enough and surely wouldnt mind if devs worked 200 hours a week to fix that grave injustice.

Tapeworm · Oct 15, 2018

Great art requires great sacrifice. It will have all been worth it when I tie an innocent woman to the train tracks because she saw me killing a beggar in a back alley. Thank you, Rockstar.

Fularu · Oct 15, 2018

test_account said:
Is there any evidence to that or just speculation?

You're asking for input on a studio that has been known for 15 years to have the worst work practices in the industry. When you're in a team and everyone is doing crunch you're pressured to do your part too, even if you're in no state to do so. Refusing will put you in a bad light from both your management and your coworkers. This will lead to either beeing ostracized by your coworkers because you're not "pulling your weight" or beeing ostracized by management because you're not a trusted ressource.

Oudone79 · Oct 15, 2018

He did not say that they were working the whole year 100 hours per week.

delete12345 · Oct 15, 2018

hanmik said:

This sounds like "if you complain, you're effectively burning your own bridges in your inner circles within the company". Which is kind of bad in the sense that it needs to be addressed.

Ideally, I think all sorts of job-related complaints within the company should be addressed, and it is the company's responsibility to maintain employee satisfaction.

ObbyDent · Oct 15, 2018

John Konstantin said:
Well, you and me are here, on Resetera, and we do have a general idea of the work conditions on the videogame industry, right?. But ok, let's take the case of the naive guy who goes into the industry without knowing. You don't quit a job the first day unless something really awful happens, I accept that. But what about after the first month?, second month?, third month?. Once you are inside you talk with your coworkers and you learn that's how things are. If you accept the conditions and continue to work there it's because you think it's worth it. It's a choice. You may not agree with it but not everybody has the same life priorities.

I'm going to be honest. If I had the opportunity and the necessary skills (which I don't) to have an important job at Nintendo, Rockstar, Naughty dog or any of the other great devs, I would take it. Of course, I would complain to my friends about the long hours and earning less that I do now but it would be worth it. Just to be able to say that you took a part on making something like RDR 2, BOTW or TLOU 2. Something that is enjoyed and brings a smile to millions of people around the world. That matters. And I wouldn't like you or others to get angry on my behalf, because it would be my choice.

Really guys, shouldn't we be focused on improving work conditions for people who work awful, terrible paid jobs out of necessity instead of out of choice?.

What the fuck is this take

"Companies are BANKING on the fact that games development is a dream come true, so we should stop giving a shit about these people getting exploited because they wanted to"

Deleted member 48436 · Oct 15, 2018

Tempy said:
Not for your regular employee. They won't get any bonuses, and after such a large project ends, there will be layoffs.

Though I could swear there are some EU rules limiting this sort of deadly crunch rubbish.

yeah, that's exactly the thing that sucks.

also, none of the Rockstar studios are located in EU, which makes this even worse

Slev · Oct 15, 2018

I know this may come off a bit as victim blaming...but they don't have to work in the video game industry.

I cannot fathom working for a major video game publisher/developer at 100+ hours a week when you can go (across the street in some cases) to a software development company and work a 9-5 with better benefits/pay/work-life balance.

Yes the hours demanded by video game developers are insane. No it shouldn't be supported. The people who could have the most impact against it is the workforce...

Stop working for video game companies. There are so many software development companies/corporate IT departments that will treat you better (its a pretty low hurdle in this case). Stop letting the video game industry warp your hopes/dreams into myriads of hours of underpaid work...

The workforce doesn't deserve this. The companies should change, but they wont. People should walk away.

bbq of doom · Oct 15, 2018

Oudone79 said:
He did not say that they were working the whole year 100 hours per week.

So?

Deleted member 300 · Oct 15, 2018

delete12345 said:
I was thinking this perception has to do with the demand and pursuit of hi-def graphics the consumer base expects in the video gaming industry.

I get that but then theres games like mine craft and wow that sell or did sell shit tons and still played by millions now. Not everything aaa has to be top tier graphics defying game etc

delete12345 · Oct 15, 2018

justiceiro said:
I just wish there was some company out there making games as good as them and without treating their employees that way. Showing that there are another ways to be on the top is what would make a bigger difference, in the end.

I believed Nintendo is this company, making great games without treating employees with too many crunches. Unless they also do suffer from crunch, and it wasn't really reported elsewhere...

Zhukov · Oct 15, 2018

Now watch 99% of the people saying how upset they are by this run out and throw their money at Rockstar on day one.

DJwest · Oct 15, 2018

AgainstTheCurrent said:
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

lmao

Zhukov said:
Now watch all the people saying how upset they are by this go right ahead and buy the game anyway.

because the solution is to boycott, make the game a flop and have those same employees lose their jobs amirite?

Kyuuji · Oct 15, 2018

Byproduct of game development being what it is and everything coming together in the final stages as it does, combined with largely static release dates that are predicted and implemented way in advance of that first point. It fucking sucks but from all I've read about game development experiences I don't see how anything will significantly change in the AAA space unless release dates aren't set until the game is gold, which marketing won't allow for as they need to wind up the hype machine.

Feel for all the workers and thank all those that put the hours they do in to create the incredible experiences we get to enjoy. Voting with wallets won't do shit toward this though, unless you plan on not playing the majority of larger games. Crunch isn't just in the places that make the headlines, far from it.

disparate · Oct 15, 2018

Fuck that, these people should jump into the warm embrace of enterprise 9-5 development.

Oudone79 · Oct 15, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
So?

I did it too for a whole month each year and I got paid ten times more.

Hasan Ali Almaci · Oct 15, 2018

dimasok said:
Not to worry because people here already pointed out that the soup doesnt look detailed enough and surely wouldnt mind if devs worked 200 hours a week to fix that grave injustice.

If naughty Dog had crunched more we would have gotten the puddles we were p^romised

Heromanz · Oct 15, 2018

Slev said:
I know this may come off a bit as victim blaming...but they don't have to work in the video game industry.

I cannot fathom working for a major video game publisher/developer at 100+ hours a week when you can go (across the street in some cases) to a software development company and work a 9-5 with better benefits/pay/work-life balance.

Yes the hours demanded by video game developers are insane. No it shouldn't be supported. The people who could have the most impact against it is the workforce...

Stop working for video game companies. There are so many software development companies/corporate IT departments that will treat you better (its a pretty low hurdle in this case). Stop letting the video game industry warp your hopes/dreams into myriads of hours of underpaid work...

The workforce doesn't deserve this. The companies should change, but they wont. People should walk away.

No one has to work anywhere but it is never that easy

Deleted member 6730 · Oct 15, 2018

Maybe the lesson here is to not overscope your game to the point where it takes 8 years and 100+ hours a week to make.

bbq of doom · Oct 15, 2018

Oudone79 said:
I did it too for a whole month each year and I got paid ten times more.

That's great, man.

You shouldn't have had to, and oftentimes, you don't get compensated for more time because a salaried worker in the US is not subject to typical overtime laws. That is typically the case here, when we discuss crunch in the industry.

Altrich · Oct 15, 2018

MaitreWakou said:
And I'm complaining when I must do 45 hours a week... Fuck this shit, 100h a week is fuckin insane.
Those devs better get an insane salary at the end of the month. The proud of having worked on RDR2 is not enough.

Vault said:
Someone asks me to work 50 hours and I tell them to fuck off

I've worked 100 hrs/ week before and while its not great, i can see why people have to resort to that.
You might think the solution is better project planning to avoid unecessary work but there is just no such thing as a perfect planning, new information transpires as a project goes on, ideas that thought to be brilliant at the start would ìbe scraped once it was tested and turned out hard to implement/ full of flaws etc.

Actually, what industry are you guys in? I would actually like to be in one where 50 hrs is considered excessive. Am not being facetious btw, genuinely wanted to know (i was previously in finance and now work in a startup)

disparate · Oct 15, 2018

Spyder_Monkey said:
Maybe the lesson here is to not overscope your game to the point where it takes 8 years and 100+ hours a week to make.

You would think that Rockstar would be capable of basic product and project management. Clown shoes, these people.

delete12345 · Oct 15, 2018

Spyder_Monkey said:
Maybe the lesson here is to not overscope your game to the point where it takes 8 years and 100+ hours a week to make.

I don't think RDR2 started development 8 years ago.

ObbyDent · Oct 15, 2018

Slev said:
I know this may come off a bit as victim blaming...but they don't have to work in the video game industry.

I cannot fathom working for a major video game publisher/developer at 100+ hours a week when you can go (across the street in some cases) to a software development company and work a 9-5 with better benefits/pay/work-life balance.

Yes the hours demanded by video game developers are insane. No it shouldn't be supported. The people who could have the most impact against it is the workforce...

Stop working for video game companies. There are so many software development companies/corporate IT departments that will treat you better (its a pretty low hurdle in this case). Stop letting the video game industry warp your hopes/dreams into myriads of hours of underpaid work...

The workforce doesn't deserve this. The companies should change, but they wont. People should walk away.

In a way it's victim blaming but you're right. This isn't on the consumer to fix. The only way for the big wigs in these shitty companies to start fixing the way they plan projects is for the talent to start leaving in waves, and have no new talent coming in.

It's a big ask, and probably couldn't happen, bit anything else probably ly won't fix this.

Drifters_ · Oct 15, 2018

I've worked 100 hour weeks straight for almost 3 months before so for a game of this size, doesn't seem out of the norm.

The part of this that also feels oddly familiar is people who object to the working conditions, suggest unionize and still buy the game @ $60 bucks. Had this for RDR1, Uncharted games and now this—- the thing needing the most change is what gamers expect tbh.

John Konstantin · Oct 15, 2018

hanmik said:
I get your point.. and I even asked him some questions about it..

His second point, I totally believe. That it's how things work on other IT fields too. But the first point I don't totally get it. I'm not from the US, so maybe I'm getting the wrong picture here, but I get around 5-10 job offers to work in the US via Linkedin every year. I don't have the necessary visa and also I don't want to move from Spain to the US because I have friends, family, girlfriend and so on here. But based on that, I was working under the assumption that there's no shortage of IT jobs on the US. So, even if you have a family, mortgage or whatever other financial obligation, you would be able to quit your job and find a new one easily enough. If that's not true, then it really won't be that much of a choice.

Also, despite my previous posts, I don't think that companies are not at fault on the crunch situation. I still think some crunch is unavoidable, but there are a lot of differences among how different companies treat their employees. Overtime should be ALWAYS appropriately paid. No one should work for free and I really can't stress this enough. If there are some young folks reading this thread, please never do it. If you want your work to be recognized and valued you can't give it away for free.

ishan · Oct 15, 2018

the gaming industry makes no sense to me im glad i didnt choose it

kpaadet · Oct 15, 2018

Zhukov said:
Now watch 99% of the people saying how upset they are by this go right ahead and buy the game anyway.

You think RDR2 bombing would change Rockstar's work methods? Or is this just the typical "you're companing about work conditions while typing on your iphone" gotcha kinda thing?

Deleted member 6730 · Oct 15, 2018

delete12345 said:
I don't think RDR2 started development 8 years ago.

Oh hell yeah it did. Of course it was in various stages of pre-production for at least a few years but the game itself took a long time to make.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/vu...redemption-2-interview-with-dan-houser.74837/

dimasok · Oct 15, 2018

You cant really vote with your wallet here. You either support the game that paid the employees so their effort doesnt go to waste or you dont and then you are shitting all over their effort.

Unionize and overthrow the capitalistic warlords. It needs to come from employees themselves though because short of an Occupy WallSt equivalent, no one but a handful will notice.

Each and every one of us will still buy the game and wont buy a ticket to RX HQ to protest this so lets cut the hypocrisy.

majesticfailure · Oct 15, 2018

AgainstTheCurrent said:
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

Yeah, you know, it's only about 100% of your life if you get 8 hours of sleep and spend the remaining time eating and moving to and from work.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

boontobias · Oct 15, 2018

Better project management creates better products. Also, prevents $150 million dollar lawsuits
Anyone saying they needed to get the game out is not right

Thorrgal · Oct 15, 2018

They get overtime, right?

They can quit anytime they want, right?

They choose to work there, under those conditions.

test_account · Oct 15, 2018

ned_ballad said:
If they're salary, they're getting paid exactly the same amount of money had they only worked the normal 8 hours

Only if the extra work is voluntary.

Fularu said:
You're asking for input on a studio that has been known for 15 years to have the worst work practices in the industry. When you're in a team and everyone is doing crunch you're pressured to do your part too, even if you're in no state to do so. Refusing will put you in a bad light from both your management and your coworkers. This will lead to either beeing ostracized by your coworkers because you're not "pulling your weight" or beeing ostracized by management because you're not a trusted ressource.

In that case, wouldnt it be easy to show to facts of what happened to those who said no? As i initially mentioned, surely someone must have refused all that extra work? What you say might be true, and it can sound logical, so i'm not arguing saying that this is true or false, because i cant say for sure. I'm interested in getting information about actual cases where people said no and what happened to them.

Ketkat · Oct 15, 2018

Oudone79 said:
He did not say that they were working the whole year 100 hours per week.

No, they weren't working 100 hours a week for the whole year, but they have been working overtime for a very very long time. Rockstar San Diego is kind of infamous for this, and you can see it in testimonials like this one as well as in reviews like on Glassdoor. I personally know someone who works there, and he has been working overtime there constantly for close to 2 years now. He was working 11 - 12 hour days pretty regularly that entire time as well. That just shouldn't be accepted as the norm at any place of work.

Auctopus · Oct 15, 2018

Same people who are posting their disdain for this work ethic are the same ones who complain about delays and post "Where the fuck is 'x game' ?" reaction threads when certain titles don't turn up at conferences.

It's shit that this is accepted in the industry but on this site, it's wanting your cake and eating it too.

JigglesBunny · Oct 15, 2018

Gross. Don't brag about it either, you should be fucking ashamed that your studio treats people like workhorses.

EJS · Oct 15, 2018

AgainstTheCurrent said:
Over 7 days that's 14 hours per day, which isn't too insane.

How much are their salaries? Do they get overtime during crunch? A nice bonus when the game inevitably gets 99 on MC? Good holidays during normal workload times?

You can't really judge what this means without any of that info.

In what way is this not insane?

ned_ballad · Oct 15, 2018

test_account said:
Only if the extra work is voluntary.

"Voluntary" is more often than not, not actually voluntary

Fularu · Oct 15, 2018

test_account said:
Only if the extra work is voluntary.

In that case, wouldnt it be easy to show to facts of what happened to those who said no? As i initially mentioned, surely someone must have refused all that extra work? What you say might be true, and it can sound logical, so i'm not arguing against that, but i'm interested in getting information about actual cases where people said no and what happened to them.

Look up the tweets from the former R* dev on this very page

Phabh · Oct 15, 2018

100 Metacritic.

Deleted member 8245 · Oct 15, 2018

delete12345 said:
I don't think RDR2 started development 8 years ago.

In terms of pre-production, I can absolutely believe it started 8 years ago. I don't know if it did, but I can believe ideas were kicked around once RDR was finished.

This is the first new release of the generation for Rockstar, so we're talking a bare minimum of 4 years production work, likely more.

ObbyDent · Oct 15, 2018

Drifters_ said:
I've worked 100 hour weeks straight for almost 3 months before so for a game of this size, doesn't seem out of the norm.

The part of this that also feels oddly familiar is people who object to the working conditions, suggest unionize and still buy the game @ $60 bucks. Had this for RDR1, Uncharted games and now this—- the thing needing the most change is what gamers expect tbh.

This game bombing would do worse for those eomployees you claim to care about than otherwise. As bad as Rockstar treated them the way Telltale treated their employees was worse.

Giever · Oct 15, 2018

This industry really grinds people into the dirt, huh

Gross

Rockstar employees were working "100 hour weeks" for RDR 2 [UPDATE: Rockstar's response]

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