The DCEU Should Have Launched with a Justice League

Not with THAT Justice League movie.

Maybe if it had been George Miller's Justice League Mortal.

Not really... Justice League has several characters that hold weight and alotta popularity but they gotta have actual setup and individual movies before just throwing them together.

Your audience has to give a damn.

Launch with the Justice League we got or a whole different version?

Because if you think setting things off with what we got is a good idea...woooo boy that is some garbage thinking.

Slowly building the MCU was about more than individual characters. It set the rules for the world at large and had a mostly consistent vision of what it would be. DCEU rushed their JL movie if anything and made some questionable decisions as so who would be part of the team and who wouldn't.

Isn't that basically what they did?

As much as I personally enjoyed Justice League... no. We need time to get to know, what little we know of these characters.

In what universe are the Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg A to B listers to the average moviegoer? The whole thing would have hinges on the popularties of Batman and Superman, and considering that neither one of those two properties have done anything remarkable in the last 25+ years outside of the Nolan Batman films, starting with Justice League wouldn't have moved the needle any differently than what has happened.

It should have launched with good movies.

They should have put someone in charge that actually likes comic books and movies

Cause I firmly believe Zach Snyder does not.

I mean, yeah the characters are well known, but tou xant just have an ensemble film, set up every character origin, set up plotlines for 6 characters, and have a main antagonist all in the first film

Honestly speaking, I always thought part of the reason for the New 52 was to streamline their universe for easier movie adaptions.

And they have roughly used it for some of their movies so yeah if they had done something like Justice League Origins (Or Justice League War if watch animated movie) where there's just this giant threat that forces all of these characters to emerge could have worked.

I mean JL is a poor attempt at JL Origins anyhow

DCEU should have launched with a Venom movie. Just give Bane the Symbiote.

butalala said:

Isn't that basically what they did?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

They had MoS, BvS, SS and WW before JL. Far from basically.

You can do anything with good writers.

I actually agree. A JL movie ala GotG, followed by films for each member would be a neat way to do their own spin on it.

The cinematic universe idea is as much about making audience believe they need to see all the peripheral films, too. That's accomplished by telling you that the buildup is important, that you might be missing out if you aren't gobbling up all related content. It doesn't work in the other direction. They could absolutely have just started off with a Justice League movie but regardless of its quality it wouldn't have really instilled this belief that you gotta see the eventual Aquaman movie, too, in the same way people feel they need to go watch, say, Captain Marvel.

Which is to say it's purely a money thing, and the resulting quality has nothing whatsoever to do with the structure of the prospective forever-franchise so much as the people you hire. DC hired Snyder and Ayer. There was probably some studio meddling in there that didn't help, but even there it's down to who's working on it and nothing more.

Medalion said:

As much as I personally enjoyed Justice League... no. We need time to get to know, what little we know of these characters.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It's doable with one movie. Especially given the interactions the characters have with each other. BvS basically threw Batman and Wonder Woman into the MOS world without proper setup. And arguably, Batman and Superman don't need their origin stories retold. After a JL movie, individual character movies can still be told to focus on each character's background.

They could have started with Suicide Squad if that movie was not a trash fire.
the problem with DC movies is that most of them are pretty much trash.

BVS should have been Batman AND Superman: Dawn of Justice. They still could have fought but have them squash their beef way earlier and team up against someone like a Luthor controlled Metallo. Doomsday shoulda been saved. Save WW for her flick, make a Flash solo, Cyborg solo(or replace him with Steel or GL pls), Aquaman, etc. Justice League shoulda been around 2020 imo.

I think DC should have followed something closer to what the MCU did. Build up each hero individually and then build up to the team up.

Of course it could've been done. Arguing otherwise is weird when there's a handful of great animated films that pretty much just throws everyone into the start of the Justice League.

I just think building up to it is a much more interesting premise. DC's characters being A-listers doesn't change that there's always a newer generation coming up that either has no idea who the characters are, or is still forming an opinion on them. Making solo films of some of the key members that fleshes out their individual pockets of the world before bringing them together in an organic way is dope, for those kids and the older fans that are curious how this new iteration of the universe came to be.

People love origin stories, especially done right, and it's not like casual audiences are incredibly familiar with anyone in the League not named Superman or Batman. They know of them, sure, which is half the battle, but there's more love to be cultivated there.

I was for skipping Batman's solo flick, but still having him be relatively new to the cape gig. Just teasing him in a post-credit scene would've been enough before the league's formation.

Knuckle Sandwich said:

BVS should have been Batman AND Superman: Dawn of Justice. They still could have fought but have them squash their beef way earlier and team up against someone like a Luthor controlled Metallo. Doomsday shoulda been saved. Save WW for her flick, make a Flash solo, Cyborg solo(or replace him with Steel or GL pls), Aquaman, etc. Justice League shoulda been around 2020 imo.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I agree in general, but it should have been Bizarro, not Metallo.

DC lacked the talent to shepherd their properties. It didn't mZatter what the movie was. There were fundamental mistakes being made.

That's exactly what they did basically and people complained, the problem was that they made a bad movie.

100% agreed. People love to talk about the setup, but DC's characters don't need the years of build up like many of the Avengers characters did.

I like the idea of starting with a Shazam movie.

You can establish the heroes existing in the universe through a group of kids idolising them and Billy trying to live up to Superman.

Ensemble movies work all the time, but I do think there is a joyfulness there when you get to see the pieces fall into place for a team up.

all they have to do is make good movies. if you want people to watch your bad movies too then you have to tie them together like the MCU.

Yes, in the sense that you can rely on your well known characters (the big three, really) to support the story while you explain who your lesser known characters are and why they matter.
Hell, drop the formulaic origin story and start with a young, already established League.

I'm saying this because I believe a short concentrated arc like Morrison's first arc can absolutely be an entry point into the DC universe, even if you don't know anything about it's characters.

What matters the most is making a good movie.

Heshinsi said:

In what universe are the Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg A to B listers to the average moviegoer?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Aquaman and Flash have been household names for decades, even if no one knows their origins entirely.

Of all the characters in the JL movie the most obscure was Cyborg, and he's well-known to an entire generation that grew up with the Teen Titans cartoon.

DCEU's attempt at skipping the worldbuilding was shit but let's not pretend all of the non-Trinity characters were as unknown as the Marvel characters were pre-Avengers.

Ocarina_117 said:

I like the idea of starting with a Shazam movie.

You can establish the heroes existing in the universe through a group of kids idolising them and Billy trying to live up to Superman.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'd be fully on board with this approach myself. Hell, it's already been done - the entire pilot arc to Justice League Action revolves around Shazam and Black Adam.

I've been saying this for years. Everyone knows who these characters are and they should have just started with an established world and then filled the people in with individual movies afterwards

Watchtower said:

Aquaman and Flash have been household names for decades, even if no one knows their origins entirely.

Of all the characters in the JL movie the most obscure was Cyborg, and he's well-known to an entire generation that grew up with the Teen Titans cartoon.

DCEU's attempt at skipping the worldbuilding was shit but let's not pretend all of the non-Trinity characters were as unknown as the Marvel characters were pre-Avengers.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Considering the pretty significant difference between the popularity of Marvel films in markets outside of the US in comparison to DC, yeah I really do think the majority of the average comic book film watchers aren't as informed about Aquaman and the Flash as you might think. I only found out about Aquaman through Entourage, and I thought he was a joke character. Calling Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg A/B listers is insane. Maybe to comic book readers, but not to the evarage person. Also, just because something has been heard of, doesn't make it an A or B lister.

PeskyToaster said:

all they have to do is make good movies. if you want people to watch your bad movies too then you have to tie them together like the MCU.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Bingo. I also think starting strong helps. Man of Steel was fine but not great, but it was followed by the one-two punch of BvS and Suicide Squad. Not ideal.

For what it's worth, Guardians of the Galaxy has shown that you can do an ensemble team movie without setup movies and it works fine. The film just has to be solid.

The Adder said:

Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, and Teen Titans were some of tye most viewed cartoons of the 2000s. Shows in which those characters were regulars. Moreover, Aquaman has been a running gag in pop culture for literally decades. That you managed to live in a cave for the first decade of this century doesn't mean everyone else had.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Also, Aquaman saw a major resurgence in popularity a few years back with Brave and the Bold, where he was viewed as one of the breakout characters.

The Adder said:

Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, and Teen Titans were some of tye most viewed cartoons of the 2000s. Shows in which those characters were regulars. Moreover, Aquaman has been a running gag in pop culture for literally decades. That you managed to live in a cave for the first decade of this century doesn't mean everyone else had.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'm talking from a global perspective, since you never made an exclusion for just America. Marvel films for example generally have a 60/40 split (many times even higher) for their films. The majority of the comic book film watching audience are outside of the US. Stating that any of those three characters are A or B listers makes zero sense considering who is watching these films. Referring to those characters by those terms is my point of contention.

Justice League was a bad movie maybe if they launched look good movies instead of bad ones there do better

Heshinsi said:

I'm talking from a global perspective, since you never made an exclusion for just America. Marvel films for example generally have a 60/40 split (many times even higher) for their films. The majority of the comic book film watching audience are outside of the US. Stating that any of those three characters are A or B listers makes zero sense considering who is watching these films. Referring to those characters by those terms is my point of contention.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think it's comparative. At the end of the day, Aquaman and The Flash started out with more renown than the likes of Iron Man and Thor. Marvel has managed to cultivate a greater global audience with their films, though.

I dunno, we run in nerd-dom here, if you asked a random person on the street who cyborg was, I doubt the majority would know, despite being on Super Friends, part of one of the top selling comics in the 80s, and having two successful Teen Titans cartoons.

I don't think it matters, though. Superman and Batman would be the centerpieces and everyone would have known who they were, and would have come out just for that. Establish the others as heavy hitters in the movie itself. I don't think it would have worked as well for the Avengers because none of the characters had that kind of popularity (maybe Hulk) before the MCU hit.

Heck, I think if they didn't make the dumb decision to off Superman in BvS and could have actually featured Superman in the advertising, it would have done a bit better. Even better if BvS didn't exist at all.

midfalutin said:

The cinematic universe idea is as much about making audience believe they need to see all the peripheral films, too. That's accomplished by telling you that the buildup is important, that you might be missing out if you aren't gobbling up all related content. It doesn't work in the other direction. They could absolutely have just started off with a Justice League movie but regardless of its quality it wouldn't have really instilled this belief that you gotta see the eventual Aquaman movie, too, in the same way people feel they need to go watch, say, Captain Marvel.

Which is to say it's purely a money thing, and the resulting quality has nothing whatsoever to do with the structure of the prospective forever-franchise so much as the people you hire. DC hired Snyder and Ayer. There was probably some studio meddling in there that didn't help, but even there it's down to who's working on it and nothing more.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Well said.

A lot of ERA folks overestimated how few people globally know who Wonder Woman is, myself included. And she's one of the trinity.

A lot of the same going on in here.

Bad films are bad films. The convoluted buildup to Justice League is one of the many reasons the movies currently aren't working.

How about starting with a good movie?

Aprikurt said:

Bad films are bad films. The convoluted buildup to Justice League is one of the many reasons the movies currently aren't working.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

We shall see how Aquaman, Shazam, and Wonder Woman 84 handle it. I'm optimistic that the issues have been worked out.