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Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I'll just comment on Kaine, that as a non-cis person who...has gone through some very similar behaviors in regards to my identity and how to express myself, her story is extremely relateable to me and I consider her one of the greatest game characters of all time for this reason. I can think of no other character who speaks to me as she does.

But I can completely understand why people would have a problem with her regardless.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,141
I fail to see what sex has to do with the scene of
2B chocking 9S
that scene is literally what it is

The sidequest about combat testing with jackass states that the Yorha Androids are
designed to feel sexual pleasure through fighting and violence, through some weird way with how the pleasure centers in their brain works. it's probably meant to be the reason they're addicted to fighting and stuck in their ridiculous eternal war. It's pretty fucking weird that it was stashed in a sidequest but it's there. I absolutely think that scene was meant to be a display of affection or love from a person who has absolutely no ability or knowledge of how to show it. You don't think the way she mounted him, the removing of the eyemask weren't meant to be intimate and sexual/sad? It's showing the horrific sadness of their violence fueled existence. Even the costume designs being bdsm influenced is kinda of reflecting in the blind submission of Yorha units to authority.

pretty off topic, but I thought it was a rare example of a game like this actually using the visual to assist a theme instead of random titilation.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So...do I need to play Nier to play Nier: Automata because I travel between 4 states and don't have space to hog around my consoles.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,642
So...do I need to play Nier to play Nier: Automata because I travel between 4 states and don't have space to hog around my consoles.

Not mandatory, but I recommend it in order to get the most out of Automata, has some really cool callbacks in there that makes it worth it. Also it's just a good story in general.

That said, I myself watched it, due to being unable to play it. Was still worth it.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Reading some of the minor spoilers here is making me itch to get Automata ASAP, damn. I'll take a vacation in a couple of weeks and I think I'll be picking up a copy as soon as that happens.

I'll just comment on Kaine, that as a non-cis person who...has gone through some very similar behaviors in regards to my identity and how to express myself, her story is extremely relateable to me and I consider her one of the greatest game characters of all time for this reason. I can think of no other character who speaks to me as she does.

But I can completely understand why people would have a problem with her regardless.
That's pretty nice to read. I have a non cis friend who fell in love with the game and identified with Kainé a lot when I lent her my copy too. Flaws aside Nier is really something special.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I like Kaine a lot as a character but I could not get over her outfit even a little. I find her design absolutely repulsive.

It's pretty awesome that anyone could identify with her like this, though. That makes me happy.

I don't think you're weird. I personally think it's a gorgeous design. It's one of my favorite female designs of the past few years and I'd love to cosplay it if I could.

The thong is too much though, yeah.
Haha, yeah, I don't actually think I'm broken or anything, I just have a bad habit of self deprecation when I'm feeling uncertain.

Honestly I often feel a lot of sexualized designs look super cool, but I suspect that's just part of the normalization of such designs. Then again I also find a (non-boob-plated) heavily armored woman badass, too. And women in normal clothes with rad attitudes! So it's not like I'm super picky here.

A tiny part of me is jealous, too, because I never really get to see sexualized dudes who are also badass in the way I'd like. Western media generally portrays them as super buff, which, while I sure like Chris Hemsworth, he's always just "yeah I've got the muscles and the face". Meanwhile, Japanese games tend to give their male characters costumes I find either weird/offputting, or just uninteresting. At least they're not super buff all the time, but still. It's rare for me to see such interesting and cool and attractive costume design on men, at least not any that I'm into. Buff or otherwise.

Basically, while I've never done cosplay, I'd like to see a male outfit that excites me like 2B's does. Who knows. Maybe I would cosplay once that happened. (Among other things.) I know there are actually plenty of cool designs across the spectrum, but I find myself thinking this way a lot, so clearly there's an imbalance in my head somewhere... Hmmm.

Well that's not where I expected this post to go!

Anyway cosplay is cool, and I sure wish her outfit didn't so easily expose said thong haha.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
The sidequest about combat testing with jackass states that the Yorha Androids are
designed to feel sexual pleasure through fighting and violence, through some weird way with how the pleasure centers in their brain works. it's probably meant to be the reason they're addicted to fighting and stuck in their ridiculous eternal war. It's pretty fucking weird that it was stashed in a sidequest but it's there. I absolutely think that scene was meant to be a display of affection or love from a person who has absolutely no ability or knowledge of how to show it. You don't think the way she mounted him, the removing of the eyemask weren't meant to be intimate and sexual/sad? It's showing the horrific sadness of their violence fueled existence. Even the costume designs being bdsm influenced is kinda of reflecting in the blind submission of Yorha units to authority.

pretty off topic, but I thought it was a rare example of a game like this actually using the visual to assist a theme instead of random titilation.

Well IMO, I see Taro may be playing with how the scene plays but I don't see how story wise had any sexual intention (and I know about jackass stuff, I don't deny there's some sex related stuff in the game, just that I don't see it as prominent as some people). At the end I guess it's more how you perceive these kind of subtities.

So...do I need to play Nier to play Nier: Automata because I travel between 4 states and don't have space to hog around my consoles.

You don't need to play Nier to understand Automata. You need to play Nier because it has the better story and characters :P

That said, I myself watched it, due to being unable to play it.

bruuuuh :(
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Well IMO, I see Taro may be playing with how the scene plays but I don't see how story wise had any sexual intention (and I know about jackass stuff, I don't deny there's some sex related stuff in the game, just that I don't see it as prominent as some people). At the end I guess it's more how you perceive these kind of subtities.



You don't need to play Nier to understand Automata. You need to play Nier because it has the better story and characters :P



bruuuuh :(

But...traveling. I don't have the space for a PS3 or Xbox 360 between my 4 houses.

(besides, I still have to finish Shining Force for a RTTP I'm planning before Christmas anyways)
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
I'm fairly certain that everything Yoko Taro does is for the purpose of creating conversation, and he's frankly a master at it by this point. All of his games are deeply problematic because all of them touch upon subjects many people are still extremely uncomfortable with. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's a goofy thing, and sometimes it's just bad. But I appreciate Taro's games for at least approaching them, however haphazardly; as even the small amount of self-awareness Taro's games display is infinitely refreshing to the 99% of AAA games that are entirely unaware it's an issue at all.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
Not mandatory, but I recommend it in order to get the most out of Automata, has some really cool callbacks in there that makes it worth it. Also it's just a good story in general.

That said, I myself watched it, due to being unable to play it. Was still worth it.

saw a clip and didnt play cuz dont wanna :D ah well playing N++ at the moment. it's addictively fun on co-op mode. loads of screaming :D
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
Liberate yourself from society's shackles! No, not those shackles!! We've got to milk those for all the merchandise they're worth!

Well then.
OFyuwmb.jpg
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
IMO, The Persona games should take place (at least) during college. The high school aged kids dating stuff can be pretty weird for adults playing the game. It would be one thing if the main character was an independent character, but he's supposed to be a blank slate/self insert.
Edit: I guess there's Tae who's an adult and Makoto who's a year ahead of you.

Also, about the above Nier discussing. You don't need to play the first Nier, but it is very good. Many people still prefer it over Automata.
I'd say it's worth playing for the soundtrack alone.
 
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empty feat

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,947
Yorkshire, UK
Evolution programmed attraction to human bodies into humans.

Humans acting on these drives and creating objects changes nothing about the lack of moral value these have.
You're in a thread about sexualised female character designs... I got 82 pages of moral value for you.

Different societies attribute sexualisation to different body parts, often parts of a womans body to objectify or oppress her.
 

Chaparral

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
787
Canada
You're in a thread about sexualised female character designs... I got 82 pages of moral value for you.

Different societies attribute sexualisation to different body parts, often parts of a womans body to objectify or oppress her.

And considering the person you're quoting got slapped out of the building when they came around the first time...

On the Nier Automata discussion: after playing it, I think I agree with the point raised earlier in the thread that Taro might have his heart in the right place with some issues, but at the same time, it's rife with sexualization issues and Yoko Taro doesn't help himself with perpetuating it. 2B's design especially makes me feel quite skeezy with the upskirts and the boob window, and I'm (mostly) a straight male. I can definitely say that 2B's design is really good, really unique, but at the same time, it's a ripe candidate for the debates being held in this thread.

Now if only the actual game wasn't pure boredom for me.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
It's just an object evolution happened to program attractiveness to in the human brain. Could as well be a pumpkin shape, a wheel shape, a pen shape, anything really. It carries no objective moral value. Neither wrong nor right it just is.
so we're just going to pretend that literally everything about what is considered attractive is deeply programmed into the brain by evolution, and that societal standards of what constitutes beauty or attractiveness don't change over time?

also "let's not talk about it because evolution" is the biggest copout I can imagine
 

D.A.

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
425
so we're just going to pretend that literally everything about what is considered attractive is deeply programmed into the brain by evolution, and that societal standards of what constitutes beauty or attractiveness don't change over time?

also "let's not talk about it because evolution" is the biggest copout I can imagine

Societal standards? I'd say they often mold to appease the elite, in the public eye. But usually the truth remains behind closed doors.

People have tried to mold both heterosexual as well as homosexual youth into the opposite sexual orientation and have failed miserably.

Things like the cosmetic both surgical and nonsurgical are a testament for the quest for youth in the opposite gender.

Minor variations in weight or skin color are a nonissue.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
IMO, The Persona games should take place (at least) during college. The high school aged kids dating stuff can be pretty weird for adults playing the game. It would be one thing if the main character was an independent character, but he's supposed to be a blank slate/self insert.
Edit: I guess there's Tae who's an adult and Makoto who's a year ahead of you.

Also, about the above Nier discussing. You don't need to play the first Nier, but it is very good. Many people still prefer it over Automata.
I'd say it's worth playing for the soundtrack alone.

To be fair, the stuff talked about in Persona 3 and 4 (it's been too long since I've played 1 and 2 and I haven't played 5 yet) were stuff talked about it high school so I do think the setting is appropriate. High school in general is the tittering point between childhood and adulthood so discussing adult things in such a setting is a good thing. The increased sexualization of underage characters on the other hand? Yeah, that can stop.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
If what you're saying is true, and it's all programmed into our DNA, then we're each, by default, attracted to a limited set of body types and skin colors and everything, and there would be definite trends among groups of people. And I should inherit my preferences from my parents.

You can't just dismiss it because it's inconvenient for your argument.

Anyway, that's demonstrably false. So... Hmm...
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
If what you're saying is true, and it's all programmed into our DNA, then we're all, by default, attracted to the exact same body types and skin colors and everything.

But... that's demonstrably false. Hmm.

I wonder if he realizes that the current modern standards of beauty was more of a result of westernization and colonialism displacing and uprooted any deviation of their standard of beauty with extreme prejudice. Or that the modern definitions of beauty (like the emphasis of breasts and hips) came about in the 20th century. Or that beauty has been changing since recorded history (Aphrodite had belly fat).
 

anyprophet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
941
Societal standards? I'd say they often mold to appease the elite, in the public eye. But usually the truth remains behind closed doors.

People have tried to mold both heterosexual as well as homosexual youth into the opposite sexual orientation and have failed miserably.

Things like the cosmetic both surgical and nonsurgical are a testament for the quest for youth in the opposite gender.

Minor variations in weight or skin color are a nonissue.

yo what the fuck does this have to do with criticism of sexualized designs? what point are you trying to make in this thread?
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
Just know, keep in mind, it is subjective not objective.
OMG, I was right. You have lost your head in the stars, appealing to some kind of cosmic significance. When talking about things that are of worth to humans, of course it has no bearing on the universe, but that gets us nowhere. We have to remain in the context of human interactions (aka Society) to get anywhere on judgement.
Societal standards? I'd say they often mold to appease the elite, in the public eye. But usually the truth remains behind closed doors.

People have tried to mold both heterosexual as well as homosexual youth into the opposite sexual orientation and have failed miserably.

Things like the cosmetic both surgical and nonsurgical are a testament for the quest for youth in the opposite gender.

Minor variations in weight or skin color are a nonissue.

What the fuck is this conspiratorial nonsense? I might be able to follow it if I were alex Jones. Where is this rampant push to turn straight people into gays? The quest for youth in the "opposite gender?"... You mean women? That would make men "the elites" in your scenario. We here down on earth call that "privilege."
 

isual

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
667
Pretty odd sentiment to have when we literally just had the loot box fiasco last week.

that's a good retort, and i'll add that it was because of $. once $ is in play, then the conversation is different because it is $. OP is more about the topic at hand and not directly with $.

i'll end my posting with this on this thread. when i was on gaf, people tend to read things differently and not in context, as exacerbated but a few who posted based on emotions and not with rationale logic or objective evidence.

CHAD WARDEN IS BACK BABY
why ban me when everyone on that thread said he was one too! shiettttt
 

D.A.

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
425
yo what the fuck does this have to do with criticism of sexualized designs? what point are you trying to make in this thread?

Pointing out that this implied idea of society being able to mold tastes arbitrarily is BS. Nor would it confer objective morality to their views.

Criticism is fair. It helps artists.

But this idea that society trumps the individual is also BS. A majority wanting something doesnt make it right or better than an individual's views.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
To be fair, the stuff talked about in Persona 3 and 4 (it's been too long since I've played 1 and 2 and I haven't played 5 yet) were stuff talked about it high school so I do think the setting is appropriate. High school in general is the tittering point between childhood and adulthood so discussing adult things in such a setting is a good thing. The increased sexualization of underage characters on the other hand? Yeah, that can stop.

Oh I definitely agree that the topics they are delving into with those games are both interesting and also high school specific. I just think if they want to do a dating sim, I would much prefer if it wasn't set in high school.

I think there are definitely interesting related themes they could discuss involving young adults. They did a good job with Catherine and that didn't rely on underage kids. Although oddly enough, Catherine didn't really have as much of a self insert character with Vincent, eh?

-
Edit: Society definitely influences how we perceive and what we value about the other gender and ourselves.
 
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anyprophet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
941
Pointing out that this implied idea of society being able to mold tastes arbitrarily is BS. Nor would it confer objective morality to their views.

Criticism is fair. It helps artists.

you're super wrong, though. tastes change over time. different cultures have different tastes. do you think that's all genetic? culture is a living, breathing thing that is shaped by our cumulative choices and actions. you can't just ascribe all of that nuance to our fucking lizard brains.

your entire point is as wrong as it is irrelevant.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,588
that's a good retort, and i'll add that it was because of $. once $ is in play, then the conversation is different because it is $. OP is more about the topic at hand and not directly with $.

i'll end my posting with this on this thread. when i was on gaf, people tend to read things differently and not in context, as exacerbated but a few who posted based on emotions and not with rationale logic or objective evidence.

CHAD WARDEN IS BACK BABY
why ban me when everyone on that thread said he was one too! shiettttt
What?
I find your posts confusing, but I can see how that could be a grammar issue. May I ask, is english a second language to you? Possibly the difficulty of expressing oneself with a bit of language barrier explains how you have previously had issues in discussion with mono-english speakers.

But who on earth is Chad Warden, and what does he have to do with this thread? And why do you appear to be speaking of being banned on a completely different website? These seem irrelevant.
 

D.A.

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
425
OMG, I was right. You have lost your head in the stars, appealing to some kind of cosmic significance. When talking about things that are of worth to humans, of course it has no bearing on the universe, but that gets us nowhere. We have to remain in the context of human interactions (aka Society) to get anywhere on judgement.


What the fuck is this conspiratorial nonsense? I might be able to follow it if I were alex Jones. Where is this rampant push to turn straight people into gays? The quest for youth in the "opposite gender?"... You mean women? That would make men "the elites" in your scenario. We here down on earth call that "privilege."

Perhaps youre unaware of the gay therapy abuses or the experiments to reassign gender to those with sexual organs ill defined?
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I wonder if he realizes that the current modern standards of beauty was more of a result of westernization and colonialism displacing and uprooted any deviation of their standard of beauty with extreme prejudice. Or that the modern definitions of beauty (like the emphasis of breasts and hips) came about in the 20th century. Or that beauty has been changing since recorded history (Aphrodite had belly fat).
I also wonder what he thinks of the fact that in Japan and Korea (and I'm sure other places), women get surgery to make their eyes look more like Western peoples' eyelids. (Source: just general knowledge I've had for a while, but here's the first Google result https://blog.gaijinpot.com/japanese-double-eyelid-surgery/And as the article points out, some Japanese women do, in fact, have double eyelids, so it's not a black and white (oof) issue, of course.)

Surely if who we are attracted to is in our DNA, this sort of thing wouldn't be necessary. Asian women wouldn't even want to be with white people, and Asian men wouldn't want the women they're attracted to (also Asian, if we assume DNA defines everything) to have eyelids they weren't born with.
 
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D.A.

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
425
you're super wrong, though. tastes change over time. different cultures have different tastes. do you think that's all genetic? culture is a living, breathing thing that is shaped by our cumulative choices and actions. you can't just ascribe all of that nuance to our fucking lizard brains.

your entire point is as wrong as it is irrelevant.

Those who believe culture has free reign over humans are deluded.

Culture may say homosexuality is wrong somewhere it wont trump the intrinsic. Homosexuality will persist. It may say prostitution is wrong yet such will persist. Cheating is wrong yet such will persist. It may try to elevate those who're unfit, but fitness will prevail.

The drive for simmetry, neotenous features, etc is strong to the point it has driven the evolution of the human body from our more common ancestor with the other primates.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Oh I definitely agree that the topics they are delving into with those games are both interesting and also high school specific. I just think if they want to do a dating sim, I would much prefer if it wasn't set in high school.

I think there are definitely interesting related themes they could discuss involving young adults. They did a good job with Catherine and that didn't rely on underage kids. Although oddly enough, Catherine didn't really have as much of a self insert character with Vincent, eh?

-
Edit: Society definitely effects how we perceive and what we value about the other gender and ourselves.

I mean, I sort of agree and disagree with the dating sim aspect? Like, relationships and its sheer complexity plays a huge role in high school and the dating sim elements are certainly a way to make sure those elements are a part of the narrative. I also haven't played 5 but I don't remember those dating elements ever going farther than a date so it really isn't like other dating sims which end in either sex, true or first love, marriage, or existential horror as the collection of data realizes it is in a video game and falls in love with the player and manipulates the game and your computer in an attempt to be with you forever. So I do see why they are in the game. But with the comments given from the director about having every woman needing to be beautiful plus that statue clearly going for a really tight biker outfit to the point of trying to make the vulva visible through the leather (because that's realistic), the dating sim gets way more creepy.

Also, it is annoying how so few Japanese video games/anime/manga actually grow beyond high school. Or the ones that do have stupid hang ups. This is why I can't recommend that Dragon Maid anime to anyone despite it being mostly about adults because of the stupid unnecessary lolicon and shotacon bait that serves no purpose but to be lolicon and shotacon bait.
 

D.A.

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
425
I also wonder what he thinks of the fact that in Japan and Korea (and I'm sure other places), women get surgery to make their eyes look more like Western peoples' eyelids. (Source: just general knowledge I've had for a while, but here's the first Google result https://blog.gaijinpot.com/japanese-double-eyelid-surgery/)

Surely if who we are attracted to is in our DNA, this sort of thing wouldn't be necessary. Asian women wouldn't even want to be with white people, and Asian men wouldn't want the women they're attracted to (also Asian, if we assume DNA defines everything) to have eyelids they weren't born with.

We arent different species the divergence of the races happened too short a time ago to have major effects, we still remain one race the human race. Large eyes correlate with neoteny.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
We arent different species the divergence of the races happened to short a time ago to have major effects, we still remain one race the human race. Large eyes correlate with neoteny.
okay well lol oh boy

you're not wrong about the race thing but you're also missing so much context here that i'm embarrassed for you
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
We arent different species the divergence of the races happened to short a time ago to have major effects, we still remain one race the human race. Large eyes correlate with neoteny.

Again, this relies on your conjecture (I'm not even going to dignify that with the term observation) that the entire human race is predisposed to one specific type of body for man and woman. Which is false. There is an entire community of people who do not care about society's increased sexualization of beauty because sexualization does nothing to them. I should know because I'm one of them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
What?
I find your posts confusing, but I can see how that could be a grammar issue. May I ask, is english a second language to you? Possibly the difficulty of expressing oneself with a bit of language barrier explains how you have previously had issues in discussion with mono-english speakers.

But who on earth is Chad Warden, and what does he have to do with this thread? And why do you appear to be speaking of being banned on a completely different website? These seem irrelevant.

Old meme. There's foul language in the video. Can't explain what the relation to this thread is though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyufDxxWIsM


That's a fair summery of this page.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I also wonder what he thinks of the fact that in Japan and Korea (and I'm sure other places), women get surgery to make their eyes look more like Western peoples' eyelids. (Source: just general knowledge I've had for a while, but here's the first Google result https://blog.gaijinpot.com/japanese-double-eyelid-surgery/And as the article points out, some Japanese women do, in fact, have double eyelids, so it's not a black and white (oof) issue, of course.)

Surely if who we are attracted to is in our DNA, this sort of thing wouldn't be necessary. Asian women wouldn't even want to be with white people, and Asian men wouldn't want the women they're attracted to (also Asian, if we assume DNA defines everything) to have eyelids they weren't born with.

Yep, societal goals plays a huge role in our modern interpretations of beauty, with western (or to be more specific, white) styles seen as the epitomy of success so many started to associate things associated to white people as the highest standard of beauty. This was common all around and only recently had a counter-culture among African and Asian Americans. But Asian countries still do cling to whiteness as standards of beauty. See how they prop up the lightest of tones as their standard of beauty as if that is the only skin tone Asians have (or Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, etc.). I don't know about other countries as I do not visit those countries but the societal changes of colonialism had a far more profound impact on beauty than...our inherent DNA or some eternal cosmic truth or whatever.

Like, there is a deep discussion to be had about the topic of beauty and how it relates to women and sexualization. How beauty is used in art. How it can cross the line into sexualization and when it should cross that line. How history and society shape these two definitions. The underlying meanings behind them. There is a breadth of discussion to be had, but the person we are talking about seems to be wanting the topic to be only skin deep to justify the objectification of women.
 
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