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Kidgalactus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
824
Orlando
Again stop it.

You've done nothing in here but try to explain away and diminish racism.

Most people who have studied the subject and don't have an agenda of defending this dude have drawn this conclusion

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2014/12/18/hideous-unknown-hp-lovecraft/


So the question becomes why the hell are you spending so much time detracting defending and deflecting from this fact?

I think they're trying to say that there are Lovecraft stories that aren't about racism, so linking everything to that can come off as disingenuous, especially if you don't know the work.

As someone who had read everything the guy ever wrote before learning about this stuff, and a member of a minority, who was often the subject of his disdain; yeah, there is some gross shit in there.

I would give fans of the work a break, though. The ephemera, and mythos have taken on a different context, and can be compelling without him.

I mean, I've never read a contemporary mythos story about racism, and more importantly, I've never met a fan of Lovecraft, the person.

After I found out about this stuff, I was super conflicted, but I think that the book Lovecraft Country was a good response to that conflicted feeling,c at least for me.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
But for anyone in here positing that Lovecraft's work was pervasively racist, can you please explain to me how stories like The Colour out of Space or Call of Cthulu are racist?
Oh, there's super racist parts in Call of Cthulhu. The whole section with the "Louisiana Swamp Mongrels", constant references to unkempt sailors with mixed blood from far off lands as being members of the cult, "Eskimo Diabolists", etc.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
I don't condone Lovecraft the man but I appreciate his work. If we found faults and bigoted views in every early influential figure and disposed of their works because of that we'd have very little to celebrate, admire, or take influence from.
 

Loxley

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,607
Regarding racism towards POC in Tolkien's works - it's not racism born out of some sort of malice or hatred, like it was with Lovecraft. It was racism that was just born out of the period in which the man lived. That doesn't excuse it, obviously, and it's extremely unfortunate, but like many great authors who's works have highly questionable depictions of non-whites (like Mark Twain) the man was a product of the time and place in which he lived. The sad fact is the sort of casual racism towards POC was just commonplace (and one easily could argue still is).

On the plus side, in the 1930s Tolkien was asked by the Nazis to prove his pure Aryan heritage in order to publish The Hobbit in Germany. He kindly told them to fuck off and would be proud to have Jewish heritage if he did.

Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject - which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-10-09-games-really-need-to-fall-out-of-love-with-lovecraft


I've personally never read any Lovecraft, but never felt any hate coming from the tropes that I experienced in other stories that used them. Should the tropes be abandoned because of their origin?

The article does a poor job of supporting its premise. Lovecraft was a racist even by the standards of his time but modern works that use his style of cosmic horror have not brought the racism along with it. And aside from Shadow Over Innsmouth, Lovecraft's racism wasn't core to his stories.

This is kind of a lazy take by Eurogamer. Disappointing. There aren't even that many Lovecraftian horror games compared to, say, zombie games. I don't think there are more cosmic horror games than sci-fi horror games, even.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
So we just obliterate an entire subgenre of horror? Correct? We should be boycotting games like DUSK, right?

Does he really have a monopoly on a sub genre? If he does then I stand by what I say, don't be a fan. Don't normalize It, don't make it popular, don't win him any fans. Hateful people don't deserve it and maybe the people that make Dusk should find inspiration from a better individual.
 

SlothmanAllen

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,834
They can borrow the non-racist and homophobic elements. Especially as I imagine a lot of them just take the superficial scary monsters imagery and run with that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
This would mean that literally everything in art that in some way adapts things from say 50 or more years ago is racist and homophobic. Which means that 99.9% of art is racist and homophobic? That's really weird logic.
If it takes place in that time period and the writing or settings within writing represents such, then it is. I'm saying this is accurate for the setting and not a fault of the author or storytelling, just stating it as a fact of what type of stories lovecraft wrote and what setting they usually shared. His stories do no reflect his own personal racist beliefs though, just the time in which they were written, ie, I see no problem with how lovecraft wrote his stories.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
I feel like scrubbing Lovecraft of his racist roots is not a good idea.
We should contextualize it and anything inspired by Lovecraft should furiously scrub the racist part like it's someone trying to scrub his internet history.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
No.

Artist intent is always shaped by there worldview.

In one hand people like Visanideth want to argue his racism was just a product of his time, but somehow we are supposed to separate the artist from the art.

Shit makes zero sense.
People can take things from art that aren't intended, that was my point. If you cant separate the two, artist intent and the way others perceive said artists work, that's on you but dont act like it's not an actual THING.

Edit: my point is that, though lovecraft was a racist and his stories were set in racist/homophobic time periods and settings, people didnt like him for that. they took from it the cosmic horror.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
I wish the article had given examples. Lovecraft's blatant racism is very well-known, and it's also well-known that his racism and xenophobia permeate some (but not all) of his stories. His earlier stories are more obviously racist than his later ones, which some have said have reflected his evolving and softening views (not sure how accurate that is). That said, I'm at a loss as to how modern Lovecraftian adaptations or inspired works necessarily carry that baggage? Eternal Darkness and Bloodborne, two of the most famous and iconic Lovecraftian-themed games there are, certainly do not. Eternal Darkness is even one of the earlier examples of a game featuring a highly multi-cultural and diverse set of playable characters.

I think the composer for Eternal Darkness was arrested/jailed for child porn so it's not only Dyack I'd want removed from any reboot/remake
The lead writer actually. Steve Henifin did nothing wrong ;_;

I don't really remember any homophobia or misogny as blatant as his racism, as such i can't provide any examples and only presume his works contained the basic "Women belong in the kitchen" kinda stuff that you can find in most older fiction.
Been a while since I read the stories but I don't recall misogyny, but his stories barely even featured women to begin with. I don't think he was particularly misogynistic for his time, actually. Homophobic, not sure, but probably, I wouldn't be surprised anyway.

Lovecraft's works aged like wet cardboard box, any way.
His actual writing is purple prose trash, have any of you read it? It's awful.
smh. The Shadow Out of Time, The Colour of Space and At the Mountains of Madness are cosmic horror/sci-fi masterpieces y'all
The Colour Out of Space remains the pinnacle of the genre, change my mind.
I dunno, I just finished At the Mountains of Madness again and it was great.
Damn right :)
 
Feb 3, 2018
1,130
I don't condone Lovecraft the man but I appreciate his work. If we found faults and bigoted views in every early influential figure and disposed of their works because of that we'd have very little to celebrate, admire, or take influence from.

Yeah pretty much this if you look up most authors of what is considered great literary works many of those authors had some disturbing views by modern standards but was acceptable back then, I think a good discussion on the subject is always healthy and discussing the authors views and analyzing his works is fine but outright telling people you should not read something or take inspiration is were he loses me.

Many great stories in movies and games have inspiration from these authors for better or for worse but movies based on literary works like the Jungle Book I feel should be enjoyed and read despite the authors views on colonialism.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,091
There's so much to take from Lovecraft's works that aren't bigoted or hateful that this is an extremely myopic take on the issue.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
If it takes place in that time period and the writing or settings within writing represents such, then it is. I'm saying this is accurate for the setting and not a fault of the author or storytelling, just stating it as a fact of what type of stories lovecraft wrote and what setting they usually shared. His stories do no reflect his own personal racist beliefs though, just the time in which they were written, ie, I see no problem with how lovecraft wrote his stories.
Wait, what?
You mean the stories about how mixed blood savages making the place unclean is not sharing Lovecraft's personal racist beliefs?
That shitty poem posted countless time in this thread was just "a product of its time"?
What kind of racist ass time do you think he lived in when no other author ever wrote anything even close to as vile as this guy?
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
I like the idea of Lovecraft's stories more than the stories themselves (although I do have a soft spot for his purple prose, especially when it's read by Wayne June)

The notion that things beyond our comprehension await and lurk and view us with what our limited sentience and morality might consider malice or indifference, so beyond our senses that we can't even truly perceive them
The cults and twisted acolytes that struggle to see and know and think they have found meaning but only just grasp at wisps of understanding
The civilizations that existed before history and still extend their corrupting influence into our lives now

But I like the broader notion of cosmic horror even more though. Lovecraftian fiction give the horror too much of a presence, while cosmic horror is more abstract. The existential dread of what we think we know as life and reality and the laws of nature being merely a thin veil, a barely-understood approximation of a fraction of reality. Like House of Leaves where the laws of physics unravel, or And When The Sky Was Opened where reality seems to be willing people out of existence
 

Raptomex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,249
Does he really have a monopoly on a sub genre? If he does then I stand by what I say, don't be a fan. Don't normalize It, don't make it popular, don't win him any fans. Hateful people don't deserve it and maybe the people that make Dusk should find inspiration from a better individual.
"Lovecraftian horror" and "cosmic horror" are interchangeable. I have no idea if he invented the genre but he's certainly a major influence.

The original Quake is one of the most influential games in history. id was heavily inspired by Lovecraft's work when developing it. Should we not play it anymore?

Should Era hate Bloodborne now? That would be something to see.

What about all these games?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_based_on_works_by_H._P._Lovecraft

I'm not denying the man was a racist prick. But to tell me any work inspired by his is basically normalizing racism, well I just disagree.
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,635
U.S.
Lovecraft is dead. If what we take from him is scrubbed of its racist roots, how does this embolden racists? What message are they getting other than "if people find value in your work they'll scrub it of racism to better reflect their own non racist values after you're gone?"
This. Drawing attention to the fact that he was a racist, when it's a little known fact in the first place, seems sort of counter intuitive to the goal here, that aspect of his persona is completely dissociated from the vast majority of his writing and certainly from Lovecraft-inspired fiction, what good does it do to point it out as if it's some sort of revelation.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
Eternal Darkness is even one of the earlier examples of a game featuring a highly multi-cultural and diverse set of playable characters.
Yeah.

The main character is a woman and one of the only other characters that doesn't get horribly murdered by the forces of darkness is a black guy.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
User banned (3 days) for excessively hostile rhetoric
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-10-09-games-really-need-to-fall-out-of-love-with-lovecraft


I've personally never read any Lovecraft, but never felt any hate coming from the tropes that I experienced in other stories that used them. Should the tropes be abandoned because of their origin?

Dear 'writter',

Shit the fuck up and take your low paying clickbait trash that you barely subsist on while sharing a 3 bedroom apartment with 4 other people at the age of 42 and kindly find something that you're good at, because it certainly isn't providing anything of value with your opinions.

The writer of this article is a complete doofus and an aspirational cancer upon creativity. Yes, Lovecraft was a massive racist and xenophobic, and yes, you can clearly see how his work reflected those elements in both direct and indirect instances.

But to say that his work had nothing of value, nothing to offer, that the very genre he has popularized (Cosmic Horror), can not, or does not 'deserve' to be carried forward because of it is the stupidest drivel that I've read in months, and I post on a message board.

Chances are that this clickbait moron doesn't even know how a myriad of works have taken influence from lovecraft, not just homage or replication (which is probably the only thing he's capable of recognizing). He's probably enjoyed works in multiple mediums and creators who where influenced by Lovecraft or those who were, and he's not even aware of it.

Here's the thing, you can take 'problematic' elements from old works and use them to tell whatever story you want! Fucking shock and awe! But the presence of negative traits in a story does NOT mean that you are endorsing them; you are entirely capable of writing a story that repudiates those things within a context where the 'world' seemingly endorses them.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Yeah.

The main character is a woman and one of the only other characters that doesn't get horribly murdered by the forces of darkness is a black guy.
It's also important to note that the game doesn't rely on the racist tropes Lovecraft is known for as well.
It does rely on harmful mental illness trope which is another can of worm.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
I feel like scrubbing Lovecraft of his racist roots is not a good idea.
We should contextualize it and anything inspired by Lovecraft should furiously scrub the racist part like it's someone trying to scrub his internet history.

This has already happened for the most part. I can't think of anyone I've read who writes Lovecraftian inspired fiction that pushes the racist angle in any kind of positive light and I've read far far more Lovecraft inspired fiction than I'd care to remember. There are certainly works that delve into the racism of Lovecraft but its always dissecting and subverting it from where Lovecraft was going.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
"Lovecraftian horror" and "cosmic horror" are interchangeable. I have no idea if he invented the genre but he's certainly a major influence.
I'd argue that Lovecraftian horror is a subgenre of cosmic horror. Bloodborne, The Void, In The Mouth of Madness, Hellraiser are all specifically Lovecraftian. House of Leaves and Annihilation are cosmic horror
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Cosmic horror is a genre. The dead man known as Lovecraft has no hold over it unless you choose to give him that power.

He doesn't even have any power over his own work (aside from the whole 'being dead' thing) due to it being public domain, that's why so many artists, writers, directors and game designers use his monsters and uncaring universe while ditching his vile social views.

This also allows for subversion- Winter Tide by Ruthanna Emrys reimagines Shadow over Innsmouth as a short prequel, with the narrator described as a racist bigot, and that tale's ending leading to Deep Ones and Innsmouth residents in Internment camps alongside the Japanese in WWII. This leads to, in modern times, a descendant of the Innsmouth prisoners living with a Japanese family in the US. It takes an alternate cosmic viewpoint from the perspective of an immortal species, that makes petty human bigotry seem pointless- ultimately both Deep Ones and humanity are equally doomed on a galactic timescale, our underwater cousins just have gods that answer their prayers and seem terrifyIng to those of us that stumble across them. To the viewpoint of the more-alien Yith, both groups are more similar than dissimilar, with humanity obsessed with minor differences while they enigmatically try to preserve knowledge from foes across the entirety of time and space. Cultists are still the bad guys, but with humans torturing Deep Ones by denying them water, desperate for info on what else is out there that they just don't have, and the scared authorities desperate for control taking risks with things they don't understand, it's quite a refreshing take on the subject matter that condemns HPL's bigotry while taking some of his best-known creations for a spin.

Same goes for Charles Stross, whose 'The Laundry' series of spy fiction crossed with the Mythos is rapidly reaching its endgame. Awesome tales that re-examine a lot of themes, and again ditch the xenophobia due to the fact we can communicate with the earthbound factions making for some shakey alliances against greater threats.

Disallowing the Cthulhu Mythos because HPL was a racist would mean no such analysis, subversion and challenging of his views. Same goes for other authors- most recently Revival by Stephen King was clearly influenced by HPL's work, and Darkest Dungeon's 'rummaging around beneath the crumbling family manor, obsessed with legacy' is absolutely Lovecraft too. I struggled to see any influence of Lovecraft's racism in the final products, just influence from story themes that have been far removed from it by creatives that loved the latter and left the former to rot.
 
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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
This has already happened for the most part. I can't think of anyone I've read who writes Lovecraftian inspired fiction that pushes the racist angle in any kind of positive light and I've read far far more Lovecraft inspired fiction than I'd care to remember. There are certainly works that delve into the racism of Lovecraft but its always dissecting and subverting it from where Lovecraft was going.
I certainly hope that they didn't wait 2018 to reuse whatever Lovecraft did and not import the racist shit written as well!
My point is more that it's better to contextualize than to remove outright.
Like rerelease Birth of Nation (the old racist movie) but properly contextualize it so that no misunderstanding on its place in history is possible.
And for the love of all that is unholy, NO, LOVECRAFT'S RACISM WASN'T THE NORM BACK THEN.
 

Raptomex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,249
I'd argue that Lovecraftian horror is a subgenre of cosmic horror. Bloodborne, The Void, In The Mouth of Madness, Hellraiser are all specifically Lovecraftian. House of Leaves and Annihilation are cosmic horror
That may be true. I only know what I've heard and read about from articles. If you search for "cosmic horror", Lovecraft's name pops up everywhere. So even if you were to eliminate the term "Lovecraftian" in favor of "cosmic horror" or any other term, the association would still stick.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
He doesn't even have any power over his own work (aside from the whole 'being dead' thing) due to it being public domain, that's why so many artists, writers, directors and game designers use his monsters and uncaring universe while ditching his vile social views.

Being public domain has gotten us some... uhhh weird stuff based on Lovecraft.

MV5BNzMzNGIwZGUtZWJhMy00ZGFjLWE3OWQtNDM3Y2Y2YmM3MjNjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNDUxMzY1Mw@@._V1_.jpg
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
This seems a rather extreme pov to take something, especially considering how many adaptations of his works there have been not only in games but movies as well (IE the cult classic Re-Animator) that in no way have any of those racist tones or influences.

I think you can clearly see the influence of those views that exist in the works and can separate them to see the merit in things that exist that aren't part of those abhorrent views.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
I certainly hope that they didn't wait 2018 to reuse whatever Lovecraft did and not import the racist shit written as well!
My point is more that it's better to contextualize than to remove outright.
Like rerelease Birth of Nation (the old racist movie) but properly contextualize it so that no misunderstanding on its place in history is possible.
And for the love of all that is unholy, NO, LOVECRAFT'S RACISM WASN'T THE NORM BACK THEN.

Considering I've been reading stuff inspired by him for like 2 decades already and many of those stories being even older than when I started reading them its been like this for a very long time. Even direct adaptations of his work drop most of the racist shit, see the Reanimator movie... though that had other issues not necessarily related to Lovecraft.
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
i feel like a lot of people are willfully ignoring the (convincing) point that the root of Lovecraftian cosmic panic was his anxious xenophobia, and that might be inextricable from use of the theme
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
Wait, what?
You mean the stories about how mixed blood savages making the place unclean is not sharing Lovecraft's personal racist beliefs?
That shitty poem posted countless time in this thread was just "a product of its time"?
What kind of racist ass time do you think he lived in when no other author ever wrote anything even close to as vile as this guy?
Lol, you think NO ONE else wrote shit like that? Maybe no one as remembered as lovecraft but no, there were definitely worse things back then. Shit, I've read worse things than that Indian stuff in old newspapers.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Considering I've been reading stuff inspired by him for like 2 decades already and many of those stories being even older than when I started reading them its been like this for a very long time.
I know, I feel like it still isn't properly contextualized how deeply racist Lovecraft was, then again he's a niche author and his legacy (or work inspired by him) vastly outnumber his work so that's not helping as well.
If you look at Bloodborn for example, it takes more from the mental illness well than from the racist, xenophobic one.
I don't think I've any game try to contextualize Lovecraft's racism in a proper light.
The mental illness representation is still not OK at all though, it can be explained but authors everywhere need to get rid of that like they did the racism.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,622
That may be true. I only know what I've heard and read about from articles. If you search for "cosmic horror", Lovecraft's name pops up everywhere. So even if you were to eliminate the term "Lovecraftian" in favor of "cosmic horror" or any other term, the association would still stick.
No, Lovecraftian has value because it specifically refers to those kinds of stories: cults, the old ones, ancient cosmic gods, pre-historical civilizations and writings, other dimensions, tentacles, creepy hamlets with a dark secret, etc. Stephen King's IT and The Mist are Lovecraftian. Hellraiser is Lovecraftian. A lot of John Carpenter's movies are Lovecraftian

While cosmic horror is more of a broader perversion of reality, that what we think of understand as reality unraveling. Spatial anomalies, the laws of physics and nature falling apart, time and space bending and breaking, our notion of self and existence crumbling, and the existential dread of trying to grasp this sudden shift in what we thought as concrete understood reality. House of Leaves is cosmic horror. Stephen King's In The Tall Grass is cosmic horror. Twilight Zone's And When The Sky Was Opened is cosmic horror. I'd say SOMA is cosmic horror.
 
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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Lol, you think NO ONE else wrote shit like that? Maybe no one as remembered as lovecraft but no, there were definitely worse things back then. Shit, I've read worse things than that Indian stuff in old newspapers.
From lionized authors?
Which one?
Where are this plethora of authors obsessed with racism to the point of dedicating so much of their work to it?
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
I know, I feel like it still isn't properly contextualized how deeply racist Lovecraft was, then again he's a niche author and his legacy (or work inspired by him) vastly outnumber his work so that's not helping as well.
If you look at Bloodborn for example, it takes more from the mental illness well than from the racist, xenophobic one.
I don't think I've any game try to contextualize Lovecraft's racism in a proper light.
The mental illness representation is still not OK at all though, it can be explained but authors everywhere need to get rid of that like they did the racism.

A lot of stories do deal with the racism, just they aren't parroting Lovecraft's bigotry. Alan Moore's Providence goes all in on Lovecraft and his mythos and dealing with the racism is a big part of it. In fact it can be a difficult read or many people miss a lot because you actually need to be fairly well versed in Lovecraft the person as well as his stories to get everything out of this work.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
i feel like a lot of people are willfully ignoring the (convincing) point that the root of Lovecraftian cosmic panic was his anxious xenophobia, and that might be inextricable from use of the theme
I don't think cosmic xenophobia as a theme needs to be a bad thing when confronted with literally terrifying alien species that are as close to gods as to make no difference and actually want us dead. I mean, plenty of sci-fi writers have toyed with the idea that any alien civilisation we meet is almost certainly going to go very badly for us. I do think there is clearly a lot of racism/xenophobia/mysogeny in his description of the more humanoid creatures, (Innsmouth, anything inhabiting a human form) and as such they need to be treated with care if used.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
A lot of stories do deal with the racism, just they aren't parroting Lovecraft's bigotry. Alan Moore's Providence goes all in on Lovecraft and his mythos and dealing with the racism is a big part of it.
*scribble name and book on paper*
My comment was more about games but still,
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
From lionized authors?
Which one?
Where are this plethora of authors obsessed with racism to the point of dedicating so much of their work to it?
It's like you didnt even read what you quoted. I said they WERENT as remembered, and went on to mention newspaper articles. If I knew someone as famous as lovecraft that did that, I would have said so in the first place. Not sure what the point of that question was, based on what I said.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
i feel like a lot of people are willfully ignoring the (convincing) point that the root of Lovecraftian cosmic panic was his anxious xenophobia, and that might be inextricable from use of the theme

I actually am pretty certain the root of Lovecraft's cosmic panic wasn't his xenophobia, but rather his fear of going "mad" like his parents due to a lack of mental health knowledge back then and both his parents suffering from degrading mental states that both died in mental hospitals young. His fear that madness was going to overtake him like his parents, and that back then the source of what ailed them was an unknown due to mental health being grossly misunderstood at the time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
*scribble name and book on paper*
My comment was more about games but still,
You should read providence. It's a lovecraftian story, with all the homophobic/racist trimmings of the time period but, the main character is a gay Jewish man. Alan moore did a great job of flipping lovecraft's prejudices on their head while still maintaining what originally made lovecraft famous to begin with.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
I actually am pretty certain the root of Lovecraft's cosmic panic wasn't his xenophobia, but rather his fear of going "mad" like his parents due to a lack of mental health knowledge back then and both his parents suffering from degrading mental states that both died in mental hospitals young. His fear madness was going to overtake him like his parents, and that back then the source of what ailed them was an unknown.

It can be both and 1 feeding the other.

It's like you didnt even read what you quoted. I said they WERENT as remembered, and went on to mention newspaper articles. If I knew someone as famous as lovecraft that did that, I would have said so in the first place. Not sure what the point of that question was, based on what I said.
My point is that Lovecraft's racism is an anomaly as far as reknowned authors goes.
No author from that time period ended up spouting the BS lovecraft wrote so from that alone he is special.
I don't doubt that there are a group of people writting this kind of shit all the time.
One of the most accomplished French author of the mid XXth century is Celine, which is a massive piece of shit.
He wrote shit that makes the worst of Lovecraft look like PSA for antiracism.

You should read providence. It's a lovecraftian story, with all the homophobic/racist trimmings of the time period but, the main character is a gay Jewish man. Alan moore did a great job of flipping lovecraft's prejudices on their head while still maintaining what originally made lovecraft famous to begin with.

US comics are a blindspot for me so I'll definitely check this one, thanks for the recommandation as well.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
I get where the writer is coming from, but the entire breadth of human history is built on the legacy of flawed, sometimes plainly bad people by our current social morality (well, some of us). I think it's going way too far to want to not use, or be inspired by, or play around with the foundational work of a genre because the progenitor was a bad guy. If we ascribed to the philosophy as a whole, I honestly wonder how much of our cultures, our works of art and entertainment would remain if we essentially pulled them from the collective social conscious from the top to the rotten roots. And even if it would normally bother you if the person was alive and could prosper from it, in Lovecraft's case he's not alive, he can't benefit from it.

It's not like the world and ideas behind cosmic horror are inherently racist - they aren't. And it's not like thousands or millions of people are going to be inspired to read Lovecraft and suddenly become xenomorphic, racist, bigoted in general.

I'll leave my comments at this. Let's not go too far, okay?
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
It can be both and 1 feeding the other.

I fully believe that, there's no question both seeped into his work alongside other things, but I would argue the actual root stemmed from these experiences and other things fed into it.

But this also highlights a big point: A lot of Lovecraft's themes can actually be separated from racism because they were almost certainly multi-faceted and not commentary on a single thing often, which is why people often can adapt elements of Lovecraft while scrubbing out the segments that were there. The themes of his works I think are compelling which is why they've stuck, and these themes are detachable from the source as they're rather ambiguous things. And the less ambiguous things, such as his monsters, are just cool monsters people like to play around with.

So I think it's definitely possibly to remove these elements from transformative takes on his works, as there's compelling themes to explore and the things that have stuck have mostly separated from Lovecraft's own views.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
US comics are a blindspot for me so I'll definitely check this one, thanks for the recommandation as well.
It's a prequel/sequel to "the courtyard" and "neonomican". The courtyard is a nice precursor to providence. Neonomican is so bad, I think providence was written to make up for it. DONT read neonomican. Its trash. Just....forewarning, lol
 

Kater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
639
I would love a departure from the term Lovecraftian for sure. And I'm not a fan of the fishing town setting with the xenophobic folk living there so I can agree with the author on that.

Still have to play SOMA, wish my PC could actually run it. T_T


Great video essay on that topic, definitely recommend watching it. One of his less controversial vids too, I think most people can enjoy it.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
I fully believe that, there's no question both seeped into his work alongside other things, but I would argue the actual root stemmed from these experiences and other things fed into it.

But this also highlights a big point: A lot of Lovecraft's themes can actually be separated from racism because they were almost certainly multi-faceted and not commentary on a single thing often, which is why people often can adapt elements of Lovecraft while scrubbing out the segments that were there. The themes of his works I think are compelling which is why they've stuck, and these themes are detachable from the source as they're rather ambiguous things.

Even the most reviled art in history can serve as a jumping point for something far better.
It's kind of a tricky thing to do, with the xenophobia and the madness fear in his work entertwinning it manages to try to produce a certain mix of horror that can be difficult to match without the xenophobia.
It's still million times easier than anyone trying to do something with nazi art though, that's so clearly coded it's not something anyone not mastering his craft should touch lightly.

It's a prequel/sequel to "the courtyard" and "neonomican". The courtyard is a nice precursor to providence. Neonomican is so bad, I think providence was written to make up for it. DONT read neonomican. Its trash. Just....forewarning, lol
All from Alan Moore?
 

Cokesouls

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,350
I'd argue that Lovecraftian horror is a subgenre of cosmic horror. Bloodborne, The Void, In The Mouth of Madness, Hellraiser are all specifically Lovecraftian. House of Leaves and Annihilation are cosmic horror
Isn't bloodborne both? I remember it having a lot of mentions of the word cosmos.