Lovecraft was a skilled painter as well?Is this image racist?
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Eurogamer: Games really need to fall out of love with Lovecraft
- Thread starter Lord Arcadio
- Start date
You are the one that brought up his upbringing and his surroundings as a "reason" for his racism.
Do you read what you post?
This is a good post and I wager the Eurogamer writer hasn't actually read much of his work either.
Also, the suggestion that we "ditch" Lovecraft to embrace SOMA is hysterical and kind of gives it up since SOMA took inspiration in its monster design from Lovecraft, and it's main plot wasn't original.
This is totally false and absurd.
Probably if it was inspired by his workIs this image racist?
Ah, ok, definitely not the fictional thoughts of a fictionally racist character.
Ughh.
Yeah even accounting for the different time period that's just ugly.
Is this image racist?
I think we're done here. Close the thread.
I just looked up "Cthulhu". According to the logic, it's racist because it was initially created by Lovecraft. The image normalizes racism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu
Yeah, I think this poster has shown they're kind of beyond reason.
Eurogamer : Stop liking the thing that I don't like!
Imagine being so insecure as to think like this. Imagine wanting everyone to only like art you deem acceptable and "correct".
Can't wait to live in a society where the only art that is allowed to be consumed is the endless slop Disney has been producing on their factory line for years.
Imagine being so insecure as to think like this. Imagine wanting everyone to only like art you deem acceptable and "correct".
Can't wait to live in a society where the only art that is allowed to be consumed is the endless slop Disney has been producing on their factory line for years.
Lmao, yes because White people have no vices. GTFO outta here Lovecraft.
Thanks for exposing yourself, your posts can be safely disregarded now.
Nobody is arguing about whether Lovecraft himself was racist.
Modern authors and creators have basically scrubbed cosmic horror and Lovecraftian style fiction clean of his ugliest and most problematic aspects to keep and focus on the worthwhile parts. You could look at it like how certain minority groups will take back a slur used agaisnt them and recontextualizing it though that's probably not the best analogy.
Yup, on that note people should check out Lovecraft country!
Question:
Is Darkest Dungeon a racist game?
Because one of the biggest takeaways from that game, despite all of it's Lovecraftian trapping (fuck, the developer is named Red Hook) is that one of the core themes of the game is an anti-corporate message that criticizes companies for treating workers like human capital instead of human beings.
This interpretation is super progressive. But is it still racist?
Had I not read your previous posts I would have assumed this post is parody. Like a 4channer trolling forums pretending to be a "woke" white leftist to make progressives look bad.
Racist guy in the past is racist.
Supposedly not racist guy in the present says"racist guy in the past is just a product of his environment, let's separate the racist from his work"
And you want me to explain why that's problematic?
Tolkien's writings are remarkably pluralistic, and the themes become even more so in the writings that occur in the latter ages of his legendarium.
There are men and women across multiple races fighting together against a singular view - one ring, one tower, one aim.
This is seen through the developed friendship between Legolas and Gimli. This is embodied in Eldarion, a great king of Gondor who was the product of an elfmaid and a mortal man.
Hell, Tolkien's own tombstone, shared with his wife references Beren and Luthien, a union between the human and elf races.
I find it very odd that his cat is both the thing he loved the most (he loved cats) and at the same time he gave the cat that name.
There's a Wyatt Cenac standup to post about this cat.
Sure, Lovecraft was racist, but it's probably possible, if you scrub enough, for the visceral body horror fear of the other stuff in Lovecraft to be divorced from its obviously racist roots. But I don't think there's anything you can do to fix its relationship with mental illness.
In Lovecraft, mental illness comes about as a result of finding the truth about the world: you have a real encounter with one of the elder gods, comprehend that we're actually very insignificant in the world, or see the world's true geometry or whatever, and this drives you mad.
This is, to put it mildly, not an accurate depiction of 'madness' or mental illness. And yet, Lovecraft's depiction of how mental illness works is the one that the popular culture accepts, modulo a few supernatural elements. It depicts mentally ill people as fundamentally corrupted by exposure to the truth of the world, which not only enhances bigotry towards mentally ill people, but makes those mentally ill people more likely to adopt a framing where giving into their symptoms is actually just accepting the truth. Lovecraft spreads misinformation, dangerous misinformation.
And if you take madness out of Lovecraft you're left with, I don't know, religion. You're definitely not left with anything recognizably lovecraftian, or at least as anything distinguished from generic existential horror.
In Lovecraft, mental illness comes about as a result of finding the truth about the world: you have a real encounter with one of the elder gods, comprehend that we're actually very insignificant in the world, or see the world's true geometry or whatever, and this drives you mad.
This is, to put it mildly, not an accurate depiction of 'madness' or mental illness. And yet, Lovecraft's depiction of how mental illness works is the one that the popular culture accepts, modulo a few supernatural elements. It depicts mentally ill people as fundamentally corrupted by exposure to the truth of the world, which not only enhances bigotry towards mentally ill people, but makes those mentally ill people more likely to adopt a framing where giving into their symptoms is actually just accepting the truth. Lovecraft spreads misinformation, dangerous misinformation.
And if you take madness out of Lovecraft you're left with, I don't know, religion. You're definitely not left with anything recognizably lovecraftian, or at least as anything distinguished from generic existential horror.
I feel like we've gone beyond separating art from the artist and entered territory where we have jettisoned the capacity to forgive, or even the understanding of why it is a virtue.
Certainly some offenses are unforgivable. But when we cannot erase the past, and we cannot forgive it, we can end it... and take from it what was good.
With so much of what we are recorded now, our memories will someday ask forgiveness from a future that has changed, perhaps measuring the highest moral offense in carbon footprint, or in our ability to apply empathy, or our reticence to judge another's folly, whatever: we don't know how the future will view our current barbarism.
I find it comforting to think that despite our flaws we might contribute something to the culture, to mythology, to history, that transcends us and sheds those flaws.
I don't know how the people of the present can ask for future forgiveness, if we won't extend it to the imperfect people of the past.
Certainly some offenses are unforgivable. But when we cannot erase the past, and we cannot forgive it, we can end it... and take from it what was good.
With so much of what we are recorded now, our memories will someday ask forgiveness from a future that has changed, perhaps measuring the highest moral offense in carbon footprint, or in our ability to apply empathy, or our reticence to judge another's folly, whatever: we don't know how the future will view our current barbarism.
I find it comforting to think that despite our flaws we might contribute something to the culture, to mythology, to history, that transcends us and sheds those flaws.
I don't know how the people of the present can ask for future forgiveness, if we won't extend it to the imperfect people of the past.
Lovecraft's works is racist, I don't really care to argue that whatever is taken from him is or not.
Although a proper contextualisation of the racism on display in Lovecraft is always necessary.
I don't think anyone argued that every single word he wrote was racist, if this was depicting the Cthuluh cult or something you would have a better point.
User banned (5 days): repeated hostility and inflammatory accusations towards others across multiple posts + ignoring earlier warning
Umm you said it yourself.
They decided to name their entire company after one of his most racist works.
Why the hell are you even asking me this?
From my standpoint it doesn't fucking matter, if you are willing to ignore vile racism just to name your damn company, then I have no intention of trying to figure out if you are truly racist or not. At the very least racism didn't stop you for naming your company that. Which is a huge "fuck you" to me and people that look like me. So my stance is fuck you.
Because "Lovecraftian fiction" has largely separated the intent of the artist from the art.
Because the stories that Lovecraft wrote and the stories that were inspired by his works doesn't share the same intent.
It's impossible to separate Lovecraft's own works from his own ideals and racism. It's ingrained in his work.
But Lovecraftian fiction - the stuff of King and Barron and Ligotti and Barker and Vandermeer and others - have re-appropriated the basic ideas and imagery and creatures to represent different intent and themes.
Lovecraft was the foundation but it's bigger than and detached from his original intent now.
Maybe one or two people have said that. Most people that actually know his biography or works indepth know he was racist and we know he was more racist than was average in New England at the time.
Genuine question, and I know you're not going to answer it because it'll hopefully draw light to your 'we must destroy everything that has its roots in bad people' stance: do you think that everyone who drinks Fanta is racist? Do you think that we should get rid of Fanta because of its Nazi origins?
You mention getting rid of Tolkien, and all derived work (see: almost all high fantasy) and it seems your demonization by association knows no reasonable bounds. I hope you don't ever know anyone who needs treatment for asbestos poisoning, because a lot of medical research into that topic was done by some pretty disgusting people.
id Software used Lovecraft's work as an influence for Quake. No discussion was opened about it at the time as far as I know. And you said yourself you didn't have a problem with Quake. So... Does that make you racist? This is getting out of control.
This is why I will never read a Lovecraft story no matter how many times purist try to hype it up. I'm good.
Yeah no. Lovecraft stuff is sweet. Sure you could replace the other dimension fish beings with black people or irish or gays fairly easily as Lovecraft was absurdly xenophobic. But you can easily take from his works and just ignore/remove the racist subtext. I mean themes of human insignificance in the face of cosmic powers, seclusion, cult mentalities, fear of the unknown, all of those can exist without being confined to racist views. Also stop telling other people what they should and shouldn't create. If you cant handle that, I'm just gonna assume, the vast majority of artists and entertainers are shitty people and therefore you can't consume their works that's fine you can never enjoy anything I don't care. But don't tell others what they are ALLOWED to create and enjoy.
this thread shows some people who have no clue about the white supremacist Lovecraft thinking they have a clue. he was not racist "for his time", he was a racist, period. don´t make excuses here, because it is flat out wrong.
maybe just read about the subject before you post in a forum. yes, he was an interesting character and his works are still regarded in todays media landscape but he also was an undeniable racist.
maybe just read about the subject before you post in a forum. yes, he was an interesting character and his works are still regarded in todays media landscape but he also was an undeniable racist.
1. Upbringings: Lovecraft was born rich and soon fell into disgrace after both his parents fell to mental illness and died in mental institutions. His problems with sexuality stem from living with his mother and being repressed. He went very quickly from relative priviledge to poverty.
2. Surroundings: Lovecraft wanted to become a writer in a world where his peer were all better off than him both economically and in terms of ancestry. He felt inadequate, socially inferior and he hated his looks.
This is relevant to his work because his outer beings are alhoof, distant, incomprensible and cruel; they create humanity, then abandon it and casually destroy it. When they turn to it, they do with cruelty and mindless rage. His monsters are more ancient, wise and powerful, but ultimately alien and deformed. His protagonists very often discover they descend from those monsters and are condemned to madness and deformity too.
In short: his stories aren't about monstrous mongrels being defeated by valiant white men (that's Howard). His stories are about omnipowerful "parent" being abandoning and rejecting humanity and something greater and more powerful and terrible existing beyond us and not caring about us. And the fear that the deformities of our ancestors may reside in us.
In short, his work isn't about racism but about his parents and his social anxieties.
My problem is that this is a possibility and people are ok with that.
Dude was a racist
His racism inspired his story's
People are ok with using his stories for inspiration.
That's fucked up and racist in itself.
The vast majority of people here agree that he was racist. They agree that he wrote and believed vile things and he was a terrible human being.
None of this fucking matters.
Nobody brings up Nazi upbringing and surroundings when people rightfully condemn them fuckers.
The only people that do are nazi sympathizers.
Are you a racist sympathizer?
That's not at all what he said.
He said his upbringing helped define a lot of his works more than his racism did. That is in no way excusing his racism or normalizing it, or even attributing it to his upbringing.
Lovecraft's parents succumbing to mental illness is a large part of what defined some of his works which revolved around the protagonist finding out he has some ancient horrible heritage that eventually will manifest itself in a horrible way. That's an incredible clear connection between his upbringing and his works that involves very little semblance of racism.
Was he a racist? Of course. Was he especially racist for his time? Yes. Were some of his works rooted in racism? Yes.
Can you describe every single thing he did as revolving around racism? No.
No exceptions. Racists need to be shunned, the moment you start to excuse them they find acceptance and a place in society. Saying "Fuck Lovecraft" but enjoying his work is giving him acceptance, he has a place, he has fans and it sends the wrong message to others. That you can be racist yet still successful like Trump and we have seen how that emboldens racists.
Actually you should read it, at least you'll know how far the racism rabbit hole goes.
It's rather deep
Can you post some examples of that work proving to be an inspiration for modern works? If you want to post that as additional proof that Loftcraft was racist, that's fine, but I think everyone is on board and in full agreement that Lovecraft was racist and terrible. However, I get the feeling that when modern creators create works of cosmic horror, this isn't something they look to. I think it is more than possible to look at the works of Lovecraft for inspiration without explicitly drawing influence from his "n***** poem".
EDIT: nvm, banned
I'm one of those people who lovecraft detested, and I don't think that Red Hooks name is a huge "fuck you" to me. There are millions of people of colour who have their own opinions on lovecraft and are fans of his work whilst being aware and informed about the vile person he was. You certainly don't speak for us.
Your name includes the word mech. Is it possible you like mechs? If so I have some bad news.
Cosmic horror is a genre. The dead man known as Lovecraft has no hold over it unless you choose to give him that power.
I think that's telling.
I mean, if you read Lovecraft's work, sure these horrible, mystical monsters are terrifying and all, but they're also fascinating. They're seductive. The protagonist more often than not ends up joining them.
It's not just the cat. He married a jewish woman after spending a good part of his youth writing anti-semitic propaganda. Lovecraft was an extremely conflicted man and most likely he suffered from some forms of mental illness. It doesn't really apply to his most racist statements and positions (he tempered them in frequency but never retracted from those views, and he should be judged as such), but he never really manages to distance himself from the horrors he describes.
In many ways, I think he was a man struggling to belong who was virtue signaling to a racist, classist society who had rejected him.
None of this justifies his racism, but it can help understanding his work.
Lovecraft is dead. If what we take from him is scrubbed of its racist roots, how does this embolden racists? What message are they getting other than "if people find value in your work they'll scrub it of racism to better reflect their own non racist values after you're gone?" Trump, and men like him, are another beast entirely.
I read much of Lovecraft's work when I was very young and unaware of the racist connotations in some (much?) of it. I played the RPG with my friends. We were captivated by the cosmic horror elements, though we did not know the term at the time. As I got older, I read about his racist views and was appalled. But I still find value and merit in some of his work.
For anyone who chooses not to, or cannot, separate the artist from their work, I respect that.
But for anyone in here positing that Lovecraft's work was pervasively racist, can you please explain to me how stories like The Colour out of Space or Call of Cthulu are racist?
For anyone who chooses not to, or cannot, separate the artist from their work, I respect that.
But for anyone in here positing that Lovecraft's work was pervasively racist, can you please explain to me how stories like The Colour out of Space or Call of Cthulu are racist?
I actually think his works are far more about his dealings with mental illness than they are about his xenophobia. The reason for this was due to his own life, mental illness was GROSSLY misunderstood in the late 1800s and early 1900s, his father had a degrading ailment in the real world which lead to him being thrown into a mental hospital where he ultimately died. He lived with his mother for a long time with just the two of them, where she had a degrading position brought on by grief and other factors in life limiting her in what she could do and the help she could get, ultimately being also hospitalized and dying. One of Lovecraft's closest friends also had been overcome with depression and ultimately died by suicide. During all of this, there was no answers to what exactly ailed all these people close to Lovecraft, because mental health research was not that far along back then. He was afraid he was going to be consumed by whatever madness it was that consumed all those close to him, which is what I think a lot of his books explore. It is a misguided take on mental health, but at the same time you can't really hold that against him since simply put, there was no understanding back then of what we have today and it more was him exploring the "unexplainable" things that consumed and lead to the deaths of those close to him. The idea of a fate people can't escape, madness, horrors beyond our comprehension, ancestry leading us to become the very thing we fear, and such things. He was deathly afraid he was going to go mad one day just like his parents did, that being the son of two people who went mad meant it was inevitable he was going to as well.
It's interesting in the sense it's the interpretations of someone who had people close to him in life with mental health issues, but was born in a time where no one understood it, and he wrote things about it as he came to fear it and how it affected those close to him. The misinformation doesn't come from a place of maliciousness nor personal ignorance as much that there was no information on all of this back when he wrote it, and that lack of information and what he visibly saw happen to people close to him terrified him and obviously influenced what he wrote about. His racist views were not simply a product of his time, he was undeniably xenophobic, but his views on mental health definitely were, especially as the people closest to him in his life growing up including his own parents suffered from mental health problems that he nor they understood.
So we just obliterate an entire subgenre of horror? Correct? We should be boycotting games like DUSK, right?