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Eurogamer: Games really need to fall out of love with Lovecraft
- Thread starter Lord Arcadio
- Start date
That poem always struck me as some crazy racist rant you'd find scrawled on public toilet wall.
Yeah, HP Lovecraft was racist, even by the standards of his time. Shit sucks. But we are living in a time where people voted for Trump, Brexit is a thing and famous people get free rein to be bigots. I'm not surprised people look past it.
Lovecraft's views went far beyond what was commonly accepted at the time. He was criticized by his contemporaries (even ones who dismissed his racism as an affect of the style of prose he was borrowing described his views as outdated) and people close to him were disturbed by his behavior.
This is how his wife described it: "Whenever we found ourselves in the racially mixed crowds which characterize New York, Howard would become livid with rage. He seemed almost to lose his mind." That's not something you say about a person who holds mildly controversial views about anything.
So one person who is trying to point out that Lovecraft was just as racist as alot of other people in his time? Not that I even agree with what they're saying I'll say again I think your interpeting things in a very specific and unsupported manner. You can discuss the man without normalizing him as this topic is doing.
He lived what 150 years ago? Was a major shithead, but if anyone tried to tell me Bloodborne is racist cause it has outer god like beings in it and cosmic horror I would probably laugh in their faces.
Exactly. The writers and creators in the genre have been tackling this aspect of the Lovecraftian fiction for decades. This article is acting as if this is an ignored aspect that people just turn a blind eye to because they like the genre, when it's the exact opposite. It's something that basically all writers in the genre are cognizant of
Here's an article from last year about this
https://www.wired.com/2017/01/geeks-guide-writers-of-color-lovecraft/
Was hoping to find some examples of racism in Lovecraft inspired games but the article just boiled down to the author being bored of the settings and plot points.
The nazis invented Fanta. Drinking Fanta doesn't make you someone who celebrates racism or white supremacists.
The fact is, as already stated in this thread, millions of ideas come from terrible people or from times where terrible views were common place. We stand on the shoulders of giants, that is to say, every human endeavour is informed by what came before it. We can be inspired by what Lovecraft did for thet horror genre without agreeing with his views on race.
The fact is, as already stated in this thread, millions of ideas come from terrible people or from times where terrible views were common place. We stand on the shoulders of giants, that is to say, every human endeavour is informed by what came before it. We can be inspired by what Lovecraft did for thet horror genre without agreeing with his views on race.
To be honest, while I'm actually getting a little tired of Lovecraftian elements - in a similar fashion to Turin on the previous page - it's mostly because it's not even just a video game thing, but media in general seems to have taken up - even if in commonly shallow fashion - the tropes and aesthetic to such a point it's just getting kinda samey and repetitive. Oh no, yet another horror from far, far away (whether space, dimensions, etc) that has too many eyes or tentacles or whatever the hell else that we'll describe as horrifying and ageless more than actually figure out what the hell it can actually do. It's been kinda used as a way of introducing a form of religious horror - or at least, something 'godly' for heroes to face - without having to create and/or rely upon any actual religious elements.
Such is honestly part of why I love Dark Soul 1's particular aesthetic so much. It's a much more medieval kind of horror, the concepts simple but stretched to such degrees as to be unnerving, if not disgusting. The likes of the Taurus Demon is frightening to new players because looks like it can break you in half (and for new players, probably will). It doesn't need to be built up in exposition to work. Ironically, one of the most tense moments in an actual Lovecraft game - Dark Corners of the Earth - has far less to do with the cosmic horror, and more to do with crazy townfolk hunting you down, and desperately trying to keep ahead of them.
So... yeah, it's an issue outside games too, and usually misses the point in how/why something is actually scary. Hbomberguy's video touches this somewhat, as he realises what the film actually set out to do, vs his original, textual expectations.
Such is honestly part of why I love Dark Soul 1's particular aesthetic so much. It's a much more medieval kind of horror, the concepts simple but stretched to such degrees as to be unnerving, if not disgusting. The likes of the Taurus Demon is frightening to new players because looks like it can break you in half (and for new players, probably will). It doesn't need to be built up in exposition to work. Ironically, one of the most tense moments in an actual Lovecraft game - Dark Corners of the Earth - has far less to do with the cosmic horror, and more to do with crazy townfolk hunting you down, and desperately trying to keep ahead of them.
So... yeah, it's an issue outside games too, and usually misses the point in how/why something is actually scary. Hbomberguy's video touches this somewhat, as he realises what the film actually set out to do, vs his original, textual expectations.
He should not have a "legacy" the fact that he does is the problem. The fact that people are so willing to praise his work is disgusting. There is no "lovecraftian" work devoid of racist baggage because as we've learned the "monsters" in his stories were just the niggers from around the corner.
So as a writer if you still chose to study and be inspired by his work, then you are willingly perpetuating a racists legacy and views. The fact that people use the word "lovecraftian" to describe anything other than a disgusting human and his views angers me to no end.
And this type of thing only happens when black people or gays are at the receiving end of the hate.
We don't hear talk of separating such n such nazi artist from his work.
The discussion around this whole thing is influenced by racism whether intentional or subconscious.
Why are people so willing and even eager to praise this guys legacy? Even you said his works weren't that good.
I've always associated Alone in the dark with Lovecraft. Also, we are about to get a Call of Cthulhu game. Then we had some games that I think were influenced with his works such as Amnesia, Eternal darkness, Bloodborne or Darkest dungeon.
Cosmic horror is the broader genre, stuff like House of Leaves or Twilight Zone's And When The Sky Was Opened, while Lovecraftian horror is a specific type of cosmic horror that uses the elements and imagery and mythos of Lovecraft's stories
Pointing out he was "just as racist as others in his time" is a deflection and an attempt to normalize the behavior.
And it's disgusting.
This sort of rhetoric drives me bonkers:
The form of these arguments is
"rather than doing [concrete, visually represented thing], this game does [abstract thing, described by its effects on players]. There are no [physical creatures], just [a cognitive state]."
It's lazy. The author says she wants games to produce a specific feeling in the player but wants games to do this without using any specific visual or concrete imagery.
I'd love to know how one implements "confronting us with the nature of our existence" into a game. That shit is fine as a review blurb, but it's nonsense as actual criticism.
The form of these arguments is
"rather than doing [concrete, visually represented thing], this game does [abstract thing, described by its effects on players]. There are no [physical creatures], just [a cognitive state]."
It's lazy. The author says she wants games to produce a specific feeling in the player but wants games to do this without using any specific visual or concrete imagery.
I'd love to know how one implements "confronting us with the nature of our existence" into a game. That shit is fine as a review blurb, but it's nonsense as actual criticism.
To be honest, I'm not familiar with any of H.P Lovecraft's work. I only know the name because I've seen it mentioned on forums or on some sort of marketing for a video game (like a trailer or something). Then again, I really don't read books.
Bloodborne's an odd game to focus on because it reverses many of the most racist aspects of Lovecraft's stories.
A good example is the Shadow Over Innsmouth-inspired area, where the nightmare denizens are hostile not because they are "mongrel" fish people, but because hunters massacred the village in their selfish pursuit of power.
A good example is the Shadow Over Innsmouth-inspired area, where the nightmare denizens are hostile not because they are "mongrel" fish people, but because hunters massacred the village in their selfish pursuit of power.
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I really don't like Lovecraft and was shocked by how racist the guy was and now no-one seemed to be talking about it.
He describes Black folks as being savage, unhuman, beast like. He even named a character's cat N-word man, which was base on the name of his cats.
What she trying to say that by giving attention to Lovecraft we are also giving attention to his work which is loaded with racism.
What she's really trying to hammer across is that no-one is really talking about Lovecraft's overt racism whether it be in adaptation of his work or about the book.
I don't know but he was fucking delusional and believed in fairies, spiritual and that people with mental illness are processed by spirits. He ended up falling out with Houdini as he refused to listen to reason.
Good for you because I couldn't stomach the racism within his book, he clearly viewed those who weren't white as savage.
He describes Black folks as being savage, unhuman, beast like. He even named a character's cat N-word man, which was base on the name of his cats.
What she trying to say that by giving attention to Lovecraft we are also giving attention to his work which is loaded with racism.
What she's really trying to hammer across is that no-one is really talking about Lovecraft's overt racism whether it be in adaptation of his work or about the book.
I don't know but he was fucking delusional and believed in fairies, spiritual and that people with mental illness are processed by spirits. He ended up falling out with Houdini as he refused to listen to reason.
Good for you because I couldn't stomach the racism within his book, he clearly viewed those who weren't white as savage.
I agree with this.
I remember many years ago being incredibly disheartened when I read about his views, as I loved his stories. I think a lot of people take a blind eye and actually forgive him because they enjoy the stories so much. Cosmic horror can live on without his moniker attached.
I've seen middle school essays that get a point across better. Just utter shit article. What is truly bad for society for using the writing of someone 140 years ago that held racist views? None of it comes through in its gaming influence. He's not some alt right figurehead. This is literally a non issue
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost#Phases_of_the_plan_and_its_implementation
I feel like people have a slightly idealized concept of what American and European society was like at the time.
Many modern Lovecraftian stories are well aware of Lovecraft's racism and either subvert those aspects or tackle them directly, such as with the book Lovecraft Country
Lovecraft was infamously racist, but there is no denying he created something of value that has had lasting effect.
I personally agree with what was said from the directors of the upcoming Lovecraft Country TV series (which is adapted of a book of the same name). For those who don't know, Lovecraft Country was a book written by a black author who grew up on Lovecraft and loved his works but was conflicted about the direct racism in his works as a black man, and made a really stellar book adapting Lovecraftian elements into the era of Jim Crow America. There is a TV series adaption being handled by Jordan Peele (director of "Get Out") and Misha Green (creator of the TV series Underground). They talked about this very topic, and what they said was really inspiring to me. Essentially, we shouldn't live in a world that silences viewpoints we disagree with, but rather take things and turn them into something more than when they started. Lovecraft was undeniably racist, but his creations are detached from him and can be used to tackle the very things he was hateful of to establish better understand and communication. The honest truth is we live as a society on a world constructed out of all sort of hate and terribleness, hell America itself was constructed by mass genocide of the people who lived here before, and it's hardly alone in how our world was constructed to where it is today through its horrible history. Instead of leaving things of the past as they were with no further dialogue or exploration, simply trying to shadow it out, where there is no talking, discussion, or moving past any of it, I think there's far more value in talking about it and using it creatively. There is extreme worth in being able to take a critical and genuine analysis and breakdown of something and explore it's depths in a number of different ways and convert it into something more than where it came from.
The topic of removing creator and their works has come up a few times here on modern creators, but there is a simple thing to say on this topic of Lovecraft specifically. He was a hateful man, and his views were horrible, and we shouldn't ever forget that, but that doesn't mean everything about Lovecraft was horrible and everything he touched was toxic. It's harder to talk about how everyone has good and bad in them than to just outcast anyone with views you view as intolerable. Lovecraft is long dead, his works have outlived him by 100 years almost, and they have successfully almost entirely been removed from the author and who he was. It's more of a concept now than directly attached to him, if that makes sense. There is value in exploring and discussing all of this, and it's a complicated issue and I won't claim to be more knowledgeable than so many on this topic. But I do fully believe that Lovecraftian Horror has successfully managed to detach itself from Lovecraft due to how many people have taken his works and ideas, transforming and shaping them into various adaptions and things, and turning the genre to something more than where it started. I also believe on the topic of Lovecraft as a man, and for all people actually, that there is more to this world than the current black and white discussion we're having of people so often. That doesn't mean to condone other people's actions and xenophobic beliefs, as a person who has strong humanist views I am fully against discriminating against other people for any reason, especially something as stupidly binary and not speaking of the character of a person such as the color of their skin, but trying to have discussion or acceptance of anything anyone with these views has touched is often perceived as 'leeway' to people with problematic shitty views, that's the conclusion some draw when someone speaks positively of anything of their character or what they may have produced. What I believe is that every person on this planet has the capacity of love and hate, and instead of trying to force out certain viewpoints, there is value in artistic expression and exploring these things and transforming them beyond their origin. Why do we talk about the Nazis in World War II? They have historic importance, there's things to learn there, and from experiences of the past of humanity we can move forward to be better and avoid something like that happening again. It also in a darker sense is a fantastic real world horror that shows how terrible and deprived people can get in an organized way to do inhumane things. Creativity and art is one of mankind's tools of exploring that which is complex to us and hard to put into just words of discussion.
Lovecraft as a man is one thing, but by his works retaining relevance it hasn't in turn made his views more acceptable or widely held by people or any less shitty, rather than people saw value in his works and ideas past his xenophobia and hate. In the end, we sit in a world built on the blood of many and the terrible acts of our ancestors. But remembering that, talking about that, exploring all of that, is important I think. I realize a single man's beliefs and our world history are very different scales of comparison, but my main point is that it's important to remember these things, explore these things, and transform and build upon these things. Like in reference to Lovecraft it's important to remember he was horribly racist. Does that mean we should cast out everything he ever did and try to use obscurity to prune him out of relevance? I don't believe so, he made works of undeniable value, and those works should stay available and accessible. There is value in his works, that much is already well established by history. Being able to take what he created, discuss who he was as a person, and take some of his ideas and transform them into something greater than where they started from I think is all productive and natural developments. I don't think it's problematic, I actually think it's the best possible outcome. It doesn't endorse Lovecraft's shitty views, but it does allow us to have a dialogue like we are now, and people can and have taken what he's created and turn it into something far greater than Lovecraft himself as a man and further divorced it from his views. I'd say his works were detached from his views long ago and will further separate and evolve, and I believe that's a good thing.
I personally agree with what was said from the directors of the upcoming Lovecraft Country TV series (which is adapted of a book of the same name). For those who don't know, Lovecraft Country was a book written by a black author who grew up on Lovecraft and loved his works but was conflicted about the direct racism in his works as a black man, and made a really stellar book adapting Lovecraftian elements into the era of Jim Crow America. There is a TV series adaption being handled by Jordan Peele (director of "Get Out") and Misha Green (creator of the TV series Underground). They talked about this very topic, and what they said was really inspiring to me. Essentially, we shouldn't live in a world that silences viewpoints we disagree with, but rather take things and turn them into something more than when they started. Lovecraft was undeniably racist, but his creations are detached from him and can be used to tackle the very things he was hateful of to establish better understand and communication. The honest truth is we live as a society on a world constructed out of all sort of hate and terribleness, hell America itself was constructed by mass genocide of the people who lived here before, and it's hardly alone in how our world was constructed to where it is today through its horrible history. Instead of leaving things of the past as they were with no further dialogue or exploration, simply trying to shadow it out, where there is no talking, discussion, or moving past any of it, I think there's far more value in talking about it and using it creatively. There is extreme worth in being able to take a critical and genuine analysis and breakdown of something and explore it's depths in a number of different ways and convert it into something more than where it came from.
The topic of removing creator and their works has come up a few times here on modern creators, but there is a simple thing to say on this topic of Lovecraft specifically. He was a hateful man, and his views were horrible, and we shouldn't ever forget that, but that doesn't mean everything about Lovecraft was horrible and everything he touched was toxic. It's harder to talk about how everyone has good and bad in them than to just outcast anyone with views you view as intolerable. Lovecraft is long dead, his works have outlived him by 100 years almost, and they have successfully almost entirely been removed from the author and who he was. It's more of a concept now than directly attached to him, if that makes sense. There is value in exploring and discussing all of this, and it's a complicated issue and I won't claim to be more knowledgeable than so many on this topic. But I do fully believe that Lovecraftian Horror has successfully managed to detach itself from Lovecraft due to how many people have taken his works and ideas, transforming and shaping them into various adaptions and things, and turning the genre to something more than where it started. I also believe on the topic of Lovecraft as a man, and for all people actually, that there is more to this world than the current black and white discussion we're having of people so often. That doesn't mean to condone other people's actions and xenophobic beliefs, as a person who has strong humanist views I am fully against discriminating against other people for any reason, especially something as stupidly binary and not speaking of the character of a person such as the color of their skin, but trying to have discussion or acceptance of anything anyone with these views has touched is often perceived as 'leeway' to people with problematic shitty views, that's the conclusion some draw when someone speaks positively of anything of their character or what they may have produced. What I believe is that every person on this planet has the capacity of love and hate, and instead of trying to force out certain viewpoints, there is value in artistic expression and exploring these things and transforming them beyond their origin. Why do we talk about the Nazis in World War II? They have historic importance, there's things to learn there, and from experiences of the past of humanity we can move forward to be better and avoid something like that happening again. It also in a darker sense is a fantastic real world horror that shows how terrible and deprived people can get in an organized way to do inhumane things. Creativity and art is one of mankind's tools of exploring that which is complex to us and hard to put into just words of discussion.
Lovecraft as a man is one thing, but by his works retaining relevance it hasn't in turn made his views more acceptable or widely held by people or any less shitty, rather than people saw value in his works and ideas past his xenophobia and hate. In the end, we sit in a world built on the blood of many and the terrible acts of our ancestors. But remembering that, talking about that, exploring all of that, is important I think. I realize a single man's beliefs and our world history are very different scales of comparison, but my main point is that it's important to remember these things, explore these things, and transform and build upon these things. Like in reference to Lovecraft it's important to remember he was horribly racist. Does that mean we should cast out everything he ever did and try to use obscurity to prune him out of relevance? I don't believe so, he made works of undeniable value, and those works should stay available and accessible. There is value in his works, that much is already well established by history. Being able to take what he created, discuss who he was as a person, and take some of his ideas and transform them into something greater than where they started from I think is all productive and natural developments. I don't think it's problematic, I actually think it's the best possible outcome. It doesn't endorse Lovecraft's shitty views, but it does allow us to have a dialogue like we are now, and people can and have taken what he's created and turn it into something far greater than Lovecraft himself as a man and further divorced it from his views. I'd say his works were detached from his views long ago and will further separate and evolve, and I believe that's a good thing.
His views are 140 years old are you insane?
Can you tell me the negative effects by citing love craft horror is modern society? Does it make racism any less awful by casually remarking a game has lovecraftian horror themes?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost#Phases_of_the_plan_and_its_implementation
I feel like people have a slightly idealized concept of what American and European society was like at the time.
Thousands attend nazi and white supremacists rallys in 2018. Millions excuse and even support the unjust killings of black men in 2018.
What's your point here?
This is just my personal experience. Until I read this thread I didn't know about Lovecraft being such a racist even for his time standards. I'm not an ultra fan of his work, but I have read most of it several times and I have always liked it. The Call of Cthulhu RPG (not videogame) set in the 1920's is one of my favourites. And I swear that I have never made the connection between his works, monsters and his racist views. I can certainly believe that the monsters on his books are metaphors for black people, but I think that, as a reader, we can choose to make our own interpretation of his work and disassociate it from racism.
I'm just kinda shocked this was posted on Eurogamer. It is a poorly written thought piece that doesn't really have any depth to it as their reasoning boils down to "I'm bored of it". Feels like thy just wanted to justify their point by pointing out Lovecraft's bigoted views. Their solution to the problem is SOMA, which is a good game but it is hardly even relevant to the same type of existential horror.
Anyway, I must've missed the part where Bloodborne was racist because it was cosmic horror.
Anyway, I must've missed the part where Bloodborne was racist because it was cosmic horror.
It's the opposite though. His racism has very much tainted his work and it's something that is always brought up today, that writers are always struggling with when writing in the genre. It's never been ignored, it's actively an issue for writers. You can find myriad articles over the past decade about this
User Warned: Inappropriate language + hostility
Apparently not considering how many people still believe and defend them today.
Fuck you.
I agree that the whole madness thing propagates a harmfully simplified image of mental illness. There is a great opportunity to explore the ideas of cosmic horror in terms of modern understanding of mental illness, and would have the benefit of being a step removed from the original stories.
Grow up. You can't defend your position fine. Don't act like a child.
And you don't find that problematic? A racist guy writing vile racist things has been elevated to the point where you didn't even know some work you enjoy was inspired by vile hatred.
You are ok with that?
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Is this how you expect to get people to side with you? Really?
You are the one calling names. That's what children do.
Now kindly go away, I'd rather not converse with someone such as yourself.
And fuck you to. I don't want you people on my side.
Yikes
Also, the article was shallow as fuck, was execting something with more depth
Yes, Lovecraft was a massive racist until his death 81 years ago. Yes, people have known this for over a century. Why are you expecting people in this thread to act shocked and appalled at something that everyone knows? Man was racist in times when 99.99% people were Racist, news at 11.
What, exactly, are people deflecting from when they point out the very obvious thing that racism in his time was commonplace? People aren't defending his racist views by pointing this out.
You're connecting dots that have no business being connected like the author of this article.
Yeah, I think divorcing it from Lovecraft himself by just saying Cosmic Horror helps a lot. The basic idea of a universe dominated by manevolent beings beyond your comprehension obviously has some value, given how popular it seems to be, even if pretty much everyone Lovecraft himself ever wrote is basically unreadably racist. Bloodborne is fine, but no one should ever attempt an actual direct Lovecraft adapatation, and people shouldn't insult something like Bloodborne by tying it to Lovecraft (I'm not sure if FROM ever directly referenced Lovecraft in development or not. If they did, they shouldn't have, but how bad Lovecraft is also probably isn't as well understood in the Japanese context.)
How is whole madness aspect of cosmic/Lovecraftian horror demonizing mental illness? I'd argue there's a huge difference between someone dealing with mental illness and how madness is presented in cosmic horror; it's not something wrong with the person, but something done to them
Why is pointing out how racism was commonplace in his time even needed?
Why would a person feel the need to point that out?
You haven't read much Lovecraft. I was going to post about how relatively easy it was to separate his works with racist themes, to works without them, since most of his racist works are super fucking racist. On the other hand, you'd have a hard time convincing anyone The Color out of Space is an analogy for Jewish cultural influence on American society or something.
Many aspects of Bloodborne (most notably the entire concept of the dream world) are directly inspired by Lovecraft's stories.
The thing to keep in mind is that inspiration doesn't mean slavish devotion. Again, compare the Fishing Hamlet in the DLC to The Shadow Over Innsmouth. There are some very deliberate differences that completely remove the racist themes present in the original.
Pro-tip to all writers heading out to try and make a point about Lovecraft's racisim - you better do your homework and hit some real fucking meaningful points, because chances are people have done that work 100 times before and 100 times better. Lovecraft is so influential and so infamously SHITTY as a human being that the discussion around said work and view points is well worn grounds.
I guess what I'm saying is this article isn't very good.
I guess what I'm saying is this article isn't very good.
No, I'm not ok. I'm quite surprised and it has soured my memories of his works. But I think people, for better or for worse, can make their own interpretations and give their own meaning to works of art regardless of the author's original intentions. I choose to continue to take Lovecraft's stories as pure fiction with no substantial connection to the real world, as I always have done.
