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Why can't people accept a popular game isn't for them instead of trying to find flaws in it?
- Thread starter Leo
- Start date
Yep, you can still acknowledge the quality of the product, without shitting on it if you don't like it. In general the Sony exclusives are not for me,because of the cinematic angle,but they're good games and some are great, they just don't appeal to me.
I feel like it comes from people who were initially hyped for a game but it just wasn't what they wanted in the end. So they find themselves in a state of post-purchase dissonance where they try to rationalize what is good about their purchase, but eventually they will come to accept that they don't actually like it as much as they thought and feel the need to vent.
It is a forum for video game discussion and while I do find the constant threads about botw not being a good game annoying, that's the price you have to pay for free discussion on a platform. If you don't agree with the writer, don't bother I guess?
It is a forum for video game discussion and while I do find the constant threads about botw not being a good game annoying, that's the price you have to pay for free discussion on a platform. If you don't agree with the writer, don't bother I guess?
while criticizing a game for what it's not is bad, criticizing a game for what it is is fine.
don't mistake one for the other.
at the same time, don't run the risk of being the other side of that coin and complain about people criticizing something simply because you like it
don't mistake one for the other.
at the same time, don't run the risk of being the other side of that coin and complain about people criticizing something simply because you like it
Zelda BOTW is kind of a different Zelda as it's
predecessors, so I can understand when fans of the older games want to express their feelings about the new one. If they like it or not.
People don't want that all the new upcoming games won't be suited for them anymore.
Some don't like the close camra in The Last of Us, but it seems we get more and more of these kind of games from Sony. Other games changed it style to follow the trend (God of War) and suddenly some fans of the older games are mad about this.
I can understand why people try to criticize them, because the popular games are setting the example for future games.
predecessors, so I can understand when fans of the older games want to express their feelings about the new one. If they like it or not.
People don't want that all the new upcoming games won't be suited for them anymore.
Some don't like the close camra in The Last of Us, but it seems we get more and more of these kind of games from Sony. Other games changed it style to follow the trend (God of War) and suddenly some fans of the older games are mad about this.
I can understand why people try to criticize them, because the popular games are setting the example for future games.
Didn't say otherwise. It becomes a problem though if people act dismissive themselves out of their excitement / hype / enthusiasm.
One example that comes to my mind: in the DMC5 reveal thread, I expressed that what I saw in the trailer and gameplay reveal didn't really impress me all that much, I was skeptical and not all that excited. Someone quoted me, posting a handful of gameplay gifs of DMC5 and stating that, if those didn't get me excited, what else would / if any other games could get me excited at all.
I mean, stating something like that is just as dumb as someone damning the game outright. And I didn't go and opened up a thread about how shitty DMC5 looks.
But as I said, actions like these can create reactions that are just as garbage.
If people have given the game a fair chance and came away disliking it overall for any reason, I think it's fair for them to point out what they don't like about it as long as they are doing it in a way that promotes conversation.
No, OP.... I will force myself to like Breath of the Wild!
In all honesty, I think it's important to find faults even in our most beloved franchises and new IP. Still, it needs to be put into perspective. Is there more good in Bloodborne than bad? The majority will argue that there's a lot of good here, others will be turned off by the difficulty/repetitiveness/nontraditional storytelling etc.
I think it's the manner of which is important: people have to accept that God of War or Zelda: BotW, or any other popular game that a majority agrees is standout, doesn't necessarily equate to oneself. And that's ok. Don't subject yourself for any longer than you think was 'a fair chance'. Time is precious and there's so much out there that the likelihood you will find something you DO enjoy is very high.
In all honesty, I think it's important to find faults even in our most beloved franchises and new IP. Still, it needs to be put into perspective. Is there more good in Bloodborne than bad? The majority will argue that there's a lot of good here, others will be turned off by the difficulty/repetitiveness/nontraditional storytelling etc.
I think it's the manner of which is important: people have to accept that God of War or Zelda: BotW, or any other popular game that a majority agrees is standout, doesn't necessarily equate to oneself. And that's ok. Don't subject yourself for any longer than you think was 'a fair chance'. Time is precious and there's so much out there that the likelihood you will find something you DO enjoy is very high.
I'm feeling very positive today because I just started really digging into Dragon Quest XI a couple of days ago and now I'm hooked. This is my first DQ game ever and I absolutely love that it is unabashedly archaic - that's a great strength in today's gaming world where content for content's sake is king and quality is secondary or even tertiary behind selling micro-transactions to remedy purposefully shit game design. DQ XI doesn't have filler content out the wazoo, it doesn't have the world's biggest map filled with enough ultimately meaningless icons to instill instant choice paralysis. DQ XI is just a video game of pure joy that respects every minute you spend playing. Simply wonderful, takes me back to my youth *sniff*.
I see, that person does sound like a bit of a dick. Still though, people like that should be ignored. It doesn't justify the kinds of responses you were talking about in your first post.
It's just what most people enjoy discussing.
I'm kind of split on it myself. I can understand when something just isn't my style(sports games and most simulation games) but I will critique something that has some aspects I like because my personal tastes need to be catered to.
It's hard to draw the line between disliking something because it's fundamentally wrong to you or because with a few tweaks and changes you might like it.
For the record, circle jerking about a game is also obnoxious. I don't bother checking those threads out.
I'm kind of split on it myself. I can understand when something just isn't my style(sports games and most simulation games) but I will critique something that has some aspects I like because my personal tastes need to be catered to.
It's hard to draw the line between disliking something because it's fundamentally wrong to you or because with a few tweaks and changes you might like it.
For the record, circle jerking about a game is also obnoxious. I don't bother checking those threads out.
OP
OP
You don't seem to understand what I wrote. In the same post I gave the example of me not liking shooters. Its in my right not to like shooters, but i won't criticize a game because it's a shooter. I could criticize it because it's buggy, or the frame rate is bad, or the side quests are repetitive, or because the characters aren't charming, all of that is fine, but it makes no sense to say that I don't like the game because it's a shooter.
It's fine for me if people don't like turn based RPGs (hence why I said I don't care if people don't like things I like), but I don't think it's fair of them to say that they shouldnt exist, or should be replaced with something else. There's a huge difference between saying "I don't like this genre" (totally fine) and saying "the very concept of this genre is wrong, it should be some other different thing" (not fine).
It's not that informative, entertaining, or insightful to leave your criticism of a game as "I just don't like it."
There's a reason critical analysis exists. We can examine parts of games, express what does or doesn't meet the design goals, talk about what we specifically did or did not like, and that's all okay. Just as someone who likes a game doesn't invalidate the experience of someone who dislikes it, the reverse is true too.
There is no game that is universally, categorically, undeniably "good" or "bad." There are a lot of games that people on Era would consider to be the best of all time that I don't enjoy at all. And I think discussion about that is really interesting to a lot of people, myself included.
You can't just leave it at "[game you like] sucks ass!" though.
There's a reason critical analysis exists. We can examine parts of games, express what does or doesn't meet the design goals, talk about what we specifically did or did not like, and that's all okay. Just as someone who likes a game doesn't invalidate the experience of someone who dislikes it, the reverse is true too.
There is no game that is universally, categorically, undeniably "good" or "bad." There are a lot of games that people on Era would consider to be the best of all time that I don't enjoy at all. And I think discussion about that is really interesting to a lot of people, myself included.
You can't just leave it at "[game you like] sucks ass!" though.
What a load of wank, why have a forum or any sort of discourse then? Having criticisms (constructive ones) for a work has value. A glad handing pat on the back discourse for any art form isn't exactly a net positive. There is value to discuss the flaws n short comings of any piece of media. From the obvious as hell social short comings of art (racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism), to the political stance of the story, to things like yeah the gameplay itself. It is absurd to me that a medium whose defining characteristic is play and its most defining feature is gameplay, yet routinely the critical darlings either have straight shallow gameplay or outright bad gameplay.
There is value in discussing that The Witcher 3 may get the fundamentals of action gameplay right for its combat system, but completely botches the details that make those systems engaging in the first place. Just like there is value in discussing that hey, Bayonetta for all her she owns her sexuality, also tends to frame things in a way where people aren't as willing to buy the game as tongue in cheek. Yes people love to bitch just to bitch, but the whole "it's just not for you" is just as often a lazy hand wave of valid n constructive criticism as well.
I can more than acknowledge what people like about Rockstar games (the absurd production value, the smaller little animations that add detail to the game world, the atmosphere of their games) while being perfectly justified in my criticism that they make shallow games because they make cover shooters where on top of the usual shallow nature of cover shooters, the aiming sucks so much it only really works when it has an auto lock on to make up for the finnicky aiming. Likewise people who value narrative more can recognize what people like about DMC or Bayonetta, and think they are still rubbish for being cringy.
There is value in discussing that The Witcher 3 may get the fundamentals of action gameplay right for its combat system, but completely botches the details that make those systems engaging in the first place. Just like there is value in discussing that hey, Bayonetta for all her she owns her sexuality, also tends to frame things in a way where people aren't as willing to buy the game as tongue in cheek. Yes people love to bitch just to bitch, but the whole "it's just not for you" is just as often a lazy hand wave of valid n constructive criticism as well.
I can more than acknowledge what people like about Rockstar games (the absurd production value, the smaller little animations that add detail to the game world, the atmosphere of their games) while being perfectly justified in my criticism that they make shallow games because they make cover shooters where on top of the usual shallow nature of cover shooters, the aiming sucks so much it only really works when it has an auto lock on to make up for the finnicky aiming. Likewise people who value narrative more can recognize what people like about DMC or Bayonetta, and think they are still rubbish for being cringy.
I don't think the thread is about critiquing a game you've put time into
I was remarking on you saying you don't care what other people think and then in the next sentence saying how what other people think diminishes your experience.
I agree with everything else you posted, but in regards to the soundtrack a lot of people have issue with it because the composer is a garbage human who they think should be fired/vacate the position. I wouldn't really say its petty, or grasping at straws, to oppose a game for that reason.
There's a massive difference between dismissing an entire genre (which is what many do in complaining about turn-based battle systems) and thinking a popular game has flaws, because the former is a matter of taste and the latter is often legitimate criticism that simply doesn't affect peoples' enjoyment but happens to affect that person's. I'm particularly awful at stealth games and fighting games require too much time to get the most out of so I rarely critique them because my perspective is fundamentally flawed. However, there are many popular games that I think are flawed regardless of how popular they may be. Breath of the Wild is one of them, though I rarely bring it up because discussion of the game tends to end in vitriol.
I can accept that it's not for me. I'm not particularly offended by the fact that people enjoy it. But the reason I don't enjoy it is because of fundamental flaws in the gameplay, narration, combat, etc., not some strange bias against popular opinions.
I can accept that it's not for me. I'm not particularly offended by the fact that people enjoy it. But the reason I don't enjoy it is because of fundamental flaws in the gameplay, narration, combat, etc., not some strange bias against popular opinions.
Everytime I see FFXV or Destiny thread I know it would be dumpster fire even before entering them haha.
No one is saying there should be no criticism or discussion.
For me, the issue is complaining or outright wishing for changes that would fundamentally upset the core of what the game is.
Why are these open world games so open? Why is old fashioned game so old fashioned? Hears how to fix X, then makes suggestions that would destroy X. That sort of thing.
Humans are insecure, we seek to validate our purchases by trying to make others agree with our choices or prove that they are wrong. However, some games are also not as good or bad as others make it out to be, so we try to prove our point. Nothing wrong there.
I mean, opinions that aren't popular are still valid. I agree, sometimes it's easy to be a bit too cynical about gaming, but I do don't think we should be so angry about people with different opinions either.
Agreed (and I didn't try to justify these responses with my post - just to clear that up - but rather put them into perspective), yet I still think that behavior like the one I described can cause reactions like creating threads about certain games and trying to spread negativity. People on here (or the internet in general) just should be way more mindful of their words and actions.
But looking at the bigger picture, I fear that we won't reach the point where people can be as polite and considerate of one another online. Thus we'll always have threads / behavior like the one OP mentioned.
I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I feel that, usually, if your argument is sound and doesn't repeat easily reputable points or try to make people on the other side somehow come off as wrong or ignorant or biased or whatever, your point will be listened to and genuinely discussed. It's when people throw in statements like "X game is only popular because it's by Y developer" or "People can't analyze games properly and that's why they like Z game", that people roll their eyes and discussion derails
Would be great if others don't try to change my opinion on said popular games and accept that I didn't like it.
I think fundamentally I think people on the internet need to learn how to read the room more
If a group of people is having a positive discussion about, say, Final Fantasy XV, it's just kinda rude to burst in and be like "well, actually". There's a time and place for that discussion.
It's just as bad sliding into someone's conversation in real life when you don't really know either participant, just to diss what they're talking about. As tempting as it may be, don't do that.
If a group of people is having a positive discussion about, say, Final Fantasy XV, it's just kinda rude to burst in and be like "well, actually". There's a time and place for that discussion.
It's just as bad sliding into someone's conversation in real life when you don't really know either participant, just to diss what they're talking about. As tempting as it may be, don't do that.
My thoughts on this human behaviour is that self-worth and self-acceptance and self-regard are to blame. People are unhappy with who they are and the interaction between them and Society is often media of some form. So their lack of self-acceptance permeates out into their interaction with entertainment. I only say this because I did a lot of personal work on self-acceptance and self-worth and I find I accept games and movies and music as they are. It never occurs to me to wish something was a different way. I either like it or I don't and then I leave it at that. I could be wrong of course and people are just being cunts for cunt's sake. I might be the only decent person I know :D
I guess we've been reading two different Eras. It's same shit as it was on Gaf when majority of people on here, we're over there.
I like good, healthy debate - it's instructive. For me, it's never been enough to simply dislike something - I like to figure out what parts work and what don't and figure out why I felt a certain way about something.
I like engaging things even when I don't like them, bacuase I'm really fascinated by how things work or don't
DQXI I bounced off because the writing did nothing for me - I thought about it and realised what bugged me, contrasted it with positive opinions and felt like I reached a couple of conclusions that had never occurred to me before.
I enjoyed that process; I suspect others will think I'm nuts and I respect that.
I like engaging things even when I don't like them, bacuase I'm really fascinated by how things work or don't
DQXI I bounced off because the writing did nothing for me - I thought about it and realised what bugged me, contrasted it with positive opinions and felt like I reached a couple of conclusions that had never occurred to me before.
I enjoyed that process; I suspect others will think I'm nuts and I respect that.
Oh you're of course going to see some vitriol and salt from folk who simply can't handle different opinions and preferences but I think most of it usually comes from making dismissive statements about why others like or dislike a game or why it blew up or whatever as opposed to someone simply saying that they didn't like a game because of X, Y, and Z
Because ERA is a forum about discussing videogames. I can like a game a lot and even so talk about its flaws, and I can dislike a game and explain why I dislike it. The same way when you computer works you won't think too much why it works, but when it breaks you'll try to understand how to fix it, when a videogame works it feels "natural", and when something doesn't work to you, you'll notice it more and it will be a more interesting discussion topic.
And the very opinion that a thing "is not for you", means that you found a lot of flaws in it, why don't share them?
And the very opinion that a thing "is not for you", means that you found a lot of flaws in it, why don't share them?
If a game series moves from it's routes or into a new direction that is worth discussing, and if you're dismissed as someone who just wants the game to be what it's not, then that ignores any issues that are worth discussing
Maybe modes are cut or it has crappy monitisation or it portrays minorities or women in a negative light, those are worth discussing and it's dangerous to allow people to dismiss anything like that (ie, legitimate criticism) by saying 'not every game has to be for everyone'
That's the point I was making
This. A thousand times this.
I guess I just don't understand the psychology of people who spend time shitting on and arguing over things they don't like. I learned long ago that GTA just isn't for me. I don't enjoy it, but you will never find me in a GTA thread trying to convince people they're wrong and it's terrible, etc.
What is the end goal? Has anyone ever read a forum post and said, "You know, xSephiroth420x is right, Breath of the Wild IS a terrible game after all!" I know it's a forum and it's for discussion. I just don't see the benefit of investing that much time on something you don't like.
Well I definitely don't disagree with that as those are valid points to bring up and discuss and simply trying to handwave them away isn't helpful and just shuts down discussion. That does often happen and it's frustrating when it does. But, more often than even that, I feel that I observe others trying to knock down what others like or prefer by painting them as somehow wrong or blind, which inevitably leads to the thread breaking down
Because that stuff can be reasonably constructive as well too? I don't subscribe to the notion that all genres are good, plenty of genres are out right rubbish. So even the example of "why is this turn based game like this", well lazy criticism sucks, yes, but you can make plenty of arguments against that type of jrpg. How simplistic it is, how moment to moment play is devoid of any actual tactics or strategy. Or how loot games drop any sort of skillful play, depth or whatever, and are more about taking advantage of how compulsive a player naturally is. Shit like that.
I agree that a blanket complaint without any follow up sucks. But I'm just as less fond of blind praise with very little substance to it. So some healthy criticism is fine. Larger issue, broad take I would say it has more to do with the limited vocab surrounding games discussion.
Zelda BotW forums at launch were awful, god forbid you didn't like anything about the game
Is it really? I always find it much easier to express what I like in something than what I don't like, even if it's something that I find bad or mediocre
OP
OP
I agree that Sugiyama's biggotry is a valid argument against the game, unfortunately (not against it's quality, obviously, but it can justify someone not wanting to buy/play it), but I was referring to the thread questioning if the music isn't the reason why the franchise isn't popular in the west. What??
We only became aware of Sugiyama's issue a few months ago, and before that, Dragon Quest music has always been reconigzed as a staple of good quality in the industry, it's lack of popularity in the west obviously can't be retroactive. Same with the thread criticizing Toriyama's iconic monster designs. The amount of reach to justify them not liking the game baffles me.
Because some people feel good when they shit on a piece of media that's popular. Some people may even like this popular piece of media, but can't stand their own feelings, so they have to piss on it to feel powerful and good about themselves.
Im more suprised people have time for that. Must be exhausting.
Im more suprised people have time for that. Must be exhausting.
They absolutely can, so as long as they don't try to paint people who don't like it as if they're somehow wrong
On the flip side, you had folk who clearly didn't like the game that much swarming threads just to go on about not only how much they didn't like it but it's actually a bad game and that everyone else is just wrong, biased, unable to properly analyze games, ignorant, and God knows what else because it simply couldn't be that they just don't like the game
More specifically about the games you mentioned (not Pokemon, I'm not into Pokemon enough I fear):
-Persona 5: loved the game, but it was too long for its own good and the gameplay formula feels the same as 3/4.
-BotW: it's my favorite game ever, and the game that rekindled my passion for gaming, even though I can see that some players won't enjoy that much the game, and some old Zelda fans can be alineated by the changes.
-DQ XI: I think that the game feels arcaic, the combat is boring and the music is bad. Only great things from the game IMO are graphics and some cutscenes. I know that the saga has its fans, but I myself as JRPG player but not a DQ fan, I found XI a pretty forgetable experience and a game that needs to "modernize" some of its aspects.
I think that criticizing a game is fine, as long as you provide your reasons, and I think that not being able to criticize some game because it received good scores or the fanbase is happy is a dumb idea. We're here to share our opinions, even if the opinions clash with the "most shared" ones.
And personally I don't give a fuck about critic reviews, so I don't try to understand why a highly critic acclaimed game is not for me.
-Persona 5: loved the game, but it was too long for its own good and the gameplay formula feels the same as 3/4.
-BotW: it's my favorite game ever, and the game that rekindled my passion for gaming, even though I can see that some players won't enjoy that much the game, and some old Zelda fans can be alineated by the changes.
-DQ XI: I think that the game feels arcaic, the combat is boring and the music is bad. Only great things from the game IMO are graphics and some cutscenes. I know that the saga has its fans, but I myself as JRPG player but not a DQ fan, I found XI a pretty forgetable experience and a game that needs to "modernize" some of its aspects.
I think that criticizing a game is fine, as long as you provide your reasons, and I think that not being able to criticize some game because it received good scores or the fanbase is happy is a dumb idea. We're here to share our opinions, even if the opinions clash with the "most shared" ones.
And personally I don't give a fuck about critic reviews, so I don't try to understand why a highly critic acclaimed game is not for me.