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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Would "dumping the Joycons" really even save that much money? They'd probably still have to integrate the motion sensors into a "Switch Pocket" because there are games that use at least the tilt aspect there. How much cheaper of a screen can you get than a 6-inch 720p panel nowadays anyway.
 

Machado

A friend is worth more than a million Venezuelan$
Member
Oct 26, 2017
473
Honest question. Why is everyone saying they can't make it bigger/smaller because if joycons? Can't they make new ones?
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Would "dumping the Joycons" really even save that much money? They'd probably still have to integrate the motion sensors into a "Switch Pocket" because there are games that use at least the tilt aspect there. How much cheaper of a screen can you get than a 6-inch 720p panel nowadays anyway.

I think the only real savings would come from the batteries and Bluetooth components, and yeah I don't that would amount to much.
 

VinylCassette64

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,425
The certainty of a hardware refresh has been the main thing holding me back on a Switch; assuming this rumor is true, then I have no problem holding off until 2019.

Personally hoping the new Switch model boasts significantly more internal storage (64/GB/128GB) and better battery life if possible. Performance boosts and improved screens would be nice but I could probably take or leave them TBH.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
This is a repost from the other thread but I think Switch's performance profiles present a really appealing way to improve old software and really make upgrading appealing for current users. Basically if the new Switch allowed old software to run at docked profile undocked, automatically improving a lot of games across the board with no developer effort, that'd be a huge incentive for a lot of current Switch owners. I think it'd be pretty comparable to running old DMG games on GBC with new color palettes or 3DS games on n3DS with super stable 3D, basically automatically improving all your old games.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
Battery life and better screens are very low on my concerns list.

Surprised people have a problem with either. Extended battery would of course be nice, but 2-3 hours worth of play in a day seems more than fair to me.

As for the screen, I think it's gorgeous and I don't really have a single complaint, including the bezels. Total non-issue for me.

Stuff like storage is huge though. Longer replays would be much appreciated as well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
The point is with that and AC Odyssey too its clear that devs do want these games on the system.

I doubt these are the only two games either, I would bet Nintendo has been told by developers many times that there is game XYZ on PS4/XB1/PC that they want to put on Switch but it's too difficult to port. I would bet Square Enix also told Nintendo they could have had DQXI on the Switch the same time as the PS4 if the spec disparity wasn't so large. Instead they have to wait a year+.

If Nvidia is saying "hey, y'know Tegra X1 is kinda old as shit and we got some new silicon that blows the shit out of that 20nm chip for not much more money" ... I mean as Nintendo I think you kinda have to consider it.

Maybe Nintendo of 10 years ago would not hear them out, but times change and audiences change.
In the case of Resident Evil 7 there is no valid excuse beyond not wanting to incur that risk. RE7 is around 24GB iirc, so is Outlast 2, which was shrinked to 10GB for the Switch while still looking good. Technically they are similar, and so on.
As for bigger games, I think the problem there is the file size. Look at Ark, that's a huge game (And much more demanding than both RE7 and AC:Odyssey) but since it has no cutscenes and stuff like that they were able to compress and reduce the assets to fit the space. With a game that has tons of unique audio and video files that's harder, and I think that's what might be happening with many games. We'll see.

Honest question. Why is everyone saying they can't make it bigger/smaller because if joycons? Can't they make new ones?
Because then you have two different sets of similar accessories for the same system, but which are incompatible with one another. A whole mess that damages the point of the system.
 

Black_Red

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
Battery life and better screens are very low on my concerns list.

Surprised people have a problem with either. Extended battery would of course be nice, but 2-3 hours worth of play in a day seems more than fair to me.

As for the screen, I think it's gorgeous and I don't really have a single complaint, including the bezels. Total non-issue for me.

Stuff like storage is huge though. Longer replays would be much appreciated as well.
I think your priorities are really weird, lol.
You can just buy another microSD for more storage.
And replays are a non-factor for most people.
But yeah, to each their own.


I like the screen too, but the batery is kind of low for some situations (specially long trips).
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
So I've been thinking about this, and we can just figure out what it would most likely be based on power consumption. Switch's power consumption when mobile and full tilt is ~7 watts
X1 SoC has a 20nm design with 4 A57 cores that use ~1.83 watts, GPU is just under 2.4 watts. SoC components we care about here are these 2, so 4.2 watts. (this is the target we should look for, give or take half a watt at 16nm)
 

Simba1

Member
Dec 5, 2017
5,383
That we were talking about a future revision of Switch hardware

Yes we were talking about future revision of Switch hardware, but I dont see point of yours last few posts.

My point was simple that we had some DS games that dont work on all DS units, and that we have some 3DS games that dont work on all 3DS units, but you tried to spin that.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
So I've been thinking about this, and we can just figure out what it would most likely be based on power consumption. Switch's power consumption when mobile and full tilt is ~7 watts
X1 SoC has a 20nm design with 4 A57 cores that use ~1.83 watts, GPU is just under 2.4 watts. SoC components we care about here are these 2, so 4.2 watts. (this is the target we should look for, give or take half a watt at 16nm)

Are you factoring in the LCD screen there or not?
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
So I've been thinking about this, and we can just figure out what it would most likely be based on power consumption. Switch's power consumption when mobile and full tilt is ~7 watts
X1 SoC has a 20nm design with 4 A57 cores that use ~1.83 watts, GPU is just under 2.4 watts. SoC components we care about here are these 2, so 4.2 watts. (this is the target we should look for, give or take half a watt at 16nm)
and the fan?
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
Yes we were talking about future revision of Switch hardware, but I dont see point of yours last few posts.

My point was simple that we had some DS games that dont work on all DS units, and that we have some 3DS games that dont work on all 3DS units, but you tried to spin that.

Nah the DS games all worked with future revisions of the hardware. Which is what a switch mini/TV would be
 

NateDrake

Member
Oct 24, 2017
7,500
Ummmm.........no. Just, no.

Third parties would much rather save millions of dollars by having better parity between consoles, thereby reducing development costs for Switch versions, than have their whole game fit on a game card.

As far as your concern, most PS4 and Xbone games have mandatory installs. Not to mention updates, patches, and DLC. So having a "whole" game on a cart matters to you maybe, but not to the industry. Rare is an instanceiof an entire game on a cart blueray. Especi since an incredible amount of users are going digital this gen.

Don't take your concerns and pretend that they are more important than very real issues that matter to everyone else.

Yeesh.
These aren't my concerns. They are concerns I've heard from developers contacts I have. Numerous projects are not coming to Switch because cart size limitations and cost. Games that can easily run on the platform are being skipped for those reasons.
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
These aren't my concerns. They are concerns I've heard from developers contacts I have. Numerous projects are not coming to Switch because cart size limitations and cost. Games that can easily run on the platform are being skipped for those reasons.
I can't really blame them. Cart sizes are what they are. Nintendo can't do anything about that and they costs a lot.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
But that's point, I never said that DS games didn't work with future revision of the hardware, while you keep replying me like I did said that.

Because we are talking about future revisions of the switch hardware. Your statement is meaningless and off topic in any other context than the thread title. You were talking about a hypothetical switch revision that wouldn't be able to play past switch games. You said that because the DS had some titles released later in the systems life that didn't work on all DS systems, that this somehow made a Handheld only or TV only switch more possible. My point is that they've never made first party titles for one system that wasn't supported in future revisions. That's it. You don't have to be obtuse. This is all under the discussion of a future revision to the switch and whether or not Nintendo would fracture their userbase when their entire history has proven that they usually try not to and always support their own games on future revisions of hardware. Which is what your hypothetical switch mini/ TV is premised upon.
 
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Jonneh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,538
UK
Ummmm.........no. Just, no.

Third parties would much rather save millions of dollars by having better parity between consoles, thereby reducing development costs for Switch versions, than have their whole game fit on a game card.

As far as your concern, most PS4 and Xbone games have mandatory installs. Not to mention updates, patches, and DLC. So having a "whole" game on a cart matters to you maybe, but not to the industry. Rare is an instanceiof an entire game on a cart blueray. Especi since an incredible amount of users are going digital this gen.

Don't take your concerns and pretend that they are more important than very real issues that matter to everyone else.

Yeesh.
Game Cards are without a doubt the largest detractor to third parties, Nate works in the industry so he's hardly pretending it's an issue.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Guys, that was the 4.2 watt SoC in the current Switch, not the system, which is 7 watts at full tilt (brightness full, full volume, bluetooth, wifi, ect)

4.2 watts + 2.8 gives us 7 watt power draw of the Switch when full tilt, so lets assume the new display draws .8 watts less, for a 2 watt system outside of SoC

X1 SoC has a 20nm design with 4 A57 cores that use ~1.83 watts, GPU is just under 2.4 watts. SoC components we care about here are these 2, so 4.2 watts. (this is the target we should look for, give or take half a watt at 16nm)

(I'm going to use Foxconn leaked CPU clocks as well for this, to see how realistic it is)
16nm GPU 256 cuda cores ~1.4 watts.
16nm GPU with 512 cuda cores ~2.8 watts
16nm A57 quad core at 1GHz ~1.2 watts.
16nm A72 quad core at 1.78ghz ~2 watts.
16nm A57 quad core at 1.78GHz ~3.6 watts

21.5wh / 4.6w (2 watt + 2.6 watt SoC) = 4.7 hours [A57 CPU 1GHz + 196GFLOPs]
21.5wh / 5.4w (2 watt + 3.4 watt SoC) = 4 hours [A72 CPU 1.78GHz + 196GFLOPs]
21.5wh / 6w (2 watt + 4 watt SoC) = 3.6 hours [A57 CPU 1GHz + 393GFLOPs]
21.5wh / 6.8w (2 watt + 4.8 watt SoC) = 3.2 hours A72 CPU 1.78GHz + 393GFLOPs
21.5wh / 8.4w (2 watt + 6.4 watt SoC) = 2.5 hours A57 CPU 1.78GHz + 393GFLOPs

The source for CPU power draws below. GPU is more tricky, however the reduction is estimated anyways, these should be close enough for this type of speculation.
A57-power-curve_575px.png
power-big.png
a57-power-curve-575px.png
 
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Crazyorloco

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,262
Battery life and better screens are very low on my concerns list.

Surprised people have a problem with either. Extended battery would of course be nice, but 2-3 hours worth of play in a day seems more than fair to me.

As for the screen, I think it's gorgeous and I don't really have a single complaint, including the bezels. Total non-issue for me.

Stuff like storage is huge though. Longer replays would be much appreciated as well.

Right lol the screen is great and battery is actually fine for me. Stand by mode is much better than the 3DS. I feel like battery technology isn't really improving... devices just keep adding more mAh.

I'd want to see Greater internal storage and improved build quality (my system has cracks in it). And maybe it'll be like the new 3DS/PS4 with small updates to process games better.

I'd purchase another if it adds that. This is my starting to be my fav system so I'd invest in another if there's a good reason to. By the time this system is released we may have close to or 30 million switches out. So they have to be careful not to segment the audience.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
9,827
Affordable 32GB carts would be a great help. 64GB carts becoming affordable would be even better. It'll eventually happen, but right now costs remain a roadblock. Software sales would still remain a concern, however.
If you dont mind me asking, what sorts of games have weak or middling software sales? I always had the impression that most games were doing reasonably well for being late or paired back ports
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Hmmm. So, are you definitely on board with a Switch Pro happening next year?
I think they need to do it, and I believe the Foxconn leak was this pro we think is coming. The post above is how realistic it all is, that power draw makes sense for the handheld side and the dock side, there is plenty of power so it works there too.

921mhz GPU with 256 Cuda cores is 472GFLOPs, almost half as powerful as xb1. Getting it to 944GFLOPs though, I believe they did that, and the handheld power draw works, that would get you near the XB1 but noticeably short still, though mixed precision would compete with PS4.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
I think they need to do it, and I believe the Foxconn leak was this pro we think is coming. The post above is how realistic it all is, that power draw makes sense for the handheld side and the dock side, there is plenty of power so it works there too.

921mhz GPU with 256 Cuda cores is 472GFLOPs, almost half as powerful as xb1. Getting it to 944GFLOPs though, I believe they did that, and the handheld power draw works, that would get you near the XB1 but noticeably short still, though mixed precision would compete with PS4.
If mixed precision is really only taking advantage of 1.33x at most for games using unreal engine 4, it will be close to xbone specs.. but it won't be consistent of course. I wouldn't say competing level though.. not sub 1.3 after mixed precision mode. If only they went with xavier specs at 12nm and 1.3 TFLOPs docked and 500 GFLOPs handheld, with 137GB/s bandwidth using only about 20 watts docked(see link below). Maybe its viable on a handheld now.. who knows. The lower the node size the better. 7 or 10nm would be gerat, but I'm not keeping my hopes up.
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-drive-xavier-soc-detailed/
My question now is how much more power and energy efficient are 16, 12, 10, 7nm nodes over 20nm?
 
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z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
If mixed precision is really only taking advantage of 1.33x at most for games using unreal engine 4, it will be close to xbone specs.. but it won't be consistent of course. I wouldn't say competing level though.. not sub 1.3 after mixed precision mode. If only they went with xavier specs at 12nm and 1.3 TFLOPs docked and 500 GFLOPs handheld, with 137GB/s bandwidth using only about 20 watts docked(see link below). Maybe its viable on a handheld now.. who knows. The lower the node size the better. 7 or 10nm would be gerat, but I'm not keeping my hopes up.
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-drive-xavier-soc-detailed/
My question now is how much more power and energy efficient are 16, 12, 10, 7nm nodes over 20nm?
Don't expect these sorts of performance levels. Compared to a XB1, it should be capable of 35% (very roughly) currently, it could be a super tiny upgrade to 42% (again rough) and as much as 84% of an XB1, if they doubled the Cuda cores.

16nm is an estimated 60% iirc.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Who even knows, maybe a higher end Switch was always part of Nintendo's blue print for the Switch family.

When Iwata spoke of the "NX" he initially mentioned it could be a family of products similar to what Apple does.

Nowhere did they ever say it was going to be exactly like the DS/3DS/old Nintendo consoles, that's something perhaps some people just assumed far too quickly just "because".
 

Dark Cloud

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
61,087
Who even knows, maybe a higher end Switch was always part of Nintendo's blue print for the Switch family.

When Iwata spoke of the "NX" he initially mentioned it could be a family of products similar to what Apple does.

Nowhere did they ever say it was going to be exactly like the DS/3DS/old Nintendo consoles, that's something perhaps some people just assumed far too quickly just "because".
Yes, Iwata mentioned family of systems. Back then people did think of different devices playing the same games. We'll see how it pans out.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
Who even knows, maybe a higher end Switch was always part of Nintendo's blue print for the Switch family.

When Iwata spoke of the "NX" he initially mentioned it could be a family of products similar to what Apple does.

Nowhere did they ever say it was going to be exactly like the DS/3DS/old Nintendo consoles, that's something perhaps some people just assumed far too quickly just "because".

Yes we expect revisions to the hardware and new versions. But history is history and it's all we have to go on. No one in their right mind should pretend they know what Nintendo WILL or CANNOT do. But those of us with experience know that they are conservative and prefer iterative design to massive overhauls. That's been the trend and people here are making predictions based on past behavior. As if there is anything else to go off of
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,990
Affordable 32GB carts would be a great help. 64GB carts becoming affordable would be even better. It'll eventually happen, but right now costs remain a roadblock. Software sales would still remain a concern, however.

Carts will probably be solved in 2019 where a price drop in 32gb carts are expected and 64 gb carts will be made available. As for software sales, I dont think there is anything to be concerned about. We've seen software from all kinds of genre's do well on Switch and with publishers like Square and Bethesda backing Switch as much as they can I dont see any reason for concern

Who even knows, maybe a higher end Switch was always part of Nintendo's blue print for the Switch family.

When Iwata spoke of the "NX" he initially mentioned it could be a family of products similar to what Apple does.

Nowhere did they ever say it was going to be exactly like the DS/3DS/old Nintendo consoles, that's something perhaps some people just assumed far too quickly just "because".

I believe in a strategy where you have an OG Switch and some sort of an IPAD variant of the Switch which is bigger stronger and less portable but plays higher end games and offers better performance in general. People dont seem to object to exlusive ipad apps. I dont see the problem with having exlusive Switch pro software.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Yes we expect revisions to the hardware and new versions. But history is history and it's all we have to go on. No one in their right mind should pretend they know what Nintendo WILL or CANNOT do. But those of us with experience know that they are conservative and prefer iterative design to massive overhauls. That's been the trend and people here are making predictions based on past behavior. As if there is anything else to go off of
Lol I love the contradictions here. This might be my favorite joke post.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Yes we expect revisions to the hardware and new versions. But history is history and it's all we have to go on. No one in their right mind should pretend they know what Nintendo WILL or CANNOT do. But those of us with experience know that they are conservative and prefer iterative design to massive overhauls. That's been the trend and people here are making predictions based on past behavior. As if there is anything else to go off of

Well you could also look at Nintendo's recent history ... they are aggressively going after monetization and revenue streams to the point of doing things straight they said they would never do.

Looking at their history like in 1998 or something to me just seems irrelevant.

Even if it was there are plenty of examples of Nintendo doing whatever the heck they please when ever it suits them .... the GBA should've had a 7 year life cycle before a GBA + came out if we were going off the Game Boy, but lo and behold just 3 years in Nintendo was already transitioning to DS, which would become their most successful system ever (so so much for the "yeah but Sega!", how about DS?).

We don't know what the upgrade path for the Switch ever was and I don't think the past gives many answers either. There's already plenty of smoke at this point given that data miners have found the "Mariko 8GB" chipset (Tegra 214) already in the Switch's OS along with a VR mode that the current Switch would be really poorly suited to handle.

To me I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was always part of the plan. Nintendo wasn't going to give up the cash cow of two hardware lines so easily, more likely the plan was to have a higher end premium model and a cheaper lower end model. When the 3DS is phased out, the current Switch will likely take over that spot, and a higher end Switch will move in upstairs in the premium segment.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
Well you could also look at Nintendo's recent history ... they are aggressively going after monetization and revenue streams to the point of doing things straight they said they would never do.

Looking at their history like in 1998 or something to me just seems irrelevant.

Even if it was there are plenty of examples of Nintendo doing whatever the heck they please when ever it suits them .... the GBA should've had a 7 year life cycle before a GBA + came out if we were going off the Game Boy, but lo and behold just 3 years in Nintendo was already transitioning to DS, which would become their most successful system ever (so so much for the "yeah but Sega!", how about DS?).

We don't know what the upgrade path for the Switch ever was and I don't think the past gives many answers either. There's already plenty of smoke at this point given that data miners have found the "Mariko 8GB" chipset (Tegra 214) already in the Switch's OS along with a VR mode that the current Switch would be really poorly suited to handle.

To me I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was always part of the plan. Nintendo wasn't going to give up the cash cow of two hardware lines so easily, more likely the plan was to have a higher end premium model and a cheaper lower end model. When the 3DS is phased out, the current Switch will likely take over that spot, and a higher end Switch will move in upstairs in the premium segment.

If you want to talk recent history, the N3DS was a spec bump and had an exclusive title. And it was still compatible with all prior software
 

Farmboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,149
What I'd like to see (and think is realistic):

- A pro model with enhanced graphics capability (1080p, 60fps fixed for most titles), same form factor as the current Switch except the screen is edge-to-edge, no bezel.
- A mini model that is slightly thinner and smaller (same screen size as the current Switch, but with the bezel removed), with smaller, non-detachable joycons. Does not come with a dock but is compatible with (and fits into) existing ones, as well as all other joycons/pro controllers etc.
 
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