UWP and Windows Store comedy of errors: The Ars Technica story

Currently downloading Forza Horizon 4 on my slow Australian internet and hoping that I'll only have to roll the dice once. I've got unlimited bandwidth at least but it will still take a day for it to download.

Gears 4 was the worst for me, it took three full downloads before it stuck.

elenarie said:

In DX12 on Windows 10, they made Borderless perform as well as EF, no more perf drop. Thus there is no reason for EF to exist anymore.

Obviously there is hardware and games that prefer it. The transition will take 5-10 years, but it will eventually fully go away.

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Does variable refresh rate work in borderless?

dmix90 said:

After looking pretty close at Microsoft UWP API's and their whole dev ecosystem it's not surprising that even their in-house devs are struggling to build something decent in the sea of this over-engineered mess.

Even Visual Studio power can barely hold all this shit together.

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The UWP API is serviceable and has largely shit all to do with the Store ballsing up downloads. Even large Win32 apps on the store will have the same problem - which is curious as the store uses the same download system as Windows Update.

RedOnePunch said:

Does variable refresh rate work in borderless?

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I believe so. I've been using Gsync in Borderless for a long time now.

Yo dudes, we gotta incentivize Ms to do better by sending them more money.

It is literally the worst storefront I have ever had the displeasure to bumb into. Tried to dl FFXV demo, it didnt launch, dled it again and same thing. Then I just said fuck it and fired up steam and guess what.. it worked.

I tried to download FH3 demo, and juts recently the FH4 demo and neither finished downloading and just stopped at a certain point. Great experience.

I really hope the rumors about Microsoft buying Obsidian aren't true. I'd hate to see their future games becoming Windows Store exclusive :(

How do they make their store work okay on the Xbox, but not on Windows?

BernardoOne said:

Every single one was Win32. Even ReCore that has " Windows 10 Version 14393.98 or higher required" in the minimum requirements is Win32 and works on W7 lmao

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Nice lol. Oh, are the rest of the spec requirements on this new version still about the same when trying to run on windows 7 even though they list the OS requirement wrong?

MS promoted their store like this:

'Like being violated? You came to the right place.'

Changing something would be false advertising.

elenarie said:

In DX12 on Windows 10, they made Borderless perform as well as EF, no more perf drop. Thus there is no reason for EF to exist anymore.

Obviously there is hardware and games that prefer it. The transition will take 5-10 years, but it will eventually fully go away.

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Interesting, I'm all for it if they got the performance the same.

SmartWaffles said:

3 years and the world's biggest software company is still stuck at developing a good store for their core operating system business.

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This.

When I got my new laptop, I couldn't even install Spotify or iTunes due to a myriad of obscure errors and useless troubleshooting.

Windows Store is a mess, and I'm not surprised it's struggling to take off.

pswii60 said:

It's been the accepted resolution for all Windows issues since 3.1 ;)

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Especially true of any windows that's had a feature update (service pack in the old days) applied
If you want an efficient system you build from the latest full installation from MS and avoid large updates for more than 1 version in the long term
I build a fresh image every other feature/creators update as a rule

pswii60 said:

It's been the accepted resolution for all Windows issues since 3.1 ;)

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I use a Windows 7 system that was set up in mid-2013, and used continuously since then, with maybe 20 reboots in total.
And that's with an absolute ton of software installed and used, including wonky non-consumer and research stuff, as well as several hardware changes/additions.

Going from Windows 7 to 10 as a PC workstation OS only allows for a limited number of conclusions IMHO: (i) the people who worked on the former didn't work on the latter, (ii) the people who made decisions about the former weren't allowed to make them for the latter, (iii) they somehow forgot how to make a good PC OS in the interim, or (iv) making a OS for professional users was seen as a tertiary goal at best, subservient to enforcing distribution of a vehicle to be used as a wedge in the consumer mobile/tablet markets.

I think it's (iv).

Works fine for me...

that is after reinstalling Windows twice. The store sucks, kinda embarassing for it to be the one that ships with the operating system and yet still be the least functional one out of all I used.

My issues with the store are so long that I would grow tired of writing them.

A recent event - I purposefully (and annoyingly) have changed my windows to British English even though I would prefer German - I do this for my DF videos. THis is ONLY for the WIndows Store products, which do not allow you to adjust your language in game and take over this option from Windows display language. Yep. Not like Steam, Uplay, Origin, or even fucking that game from win95. Japanese PC ports in the 90s did this better.

Loading up Forza Horizin 4, even though my OS was display language english UK was STILL in German. It turns out, it was basing that decision off of my prefered way of displaying the date and clock - with German / Central European Standards. I had to go through like 5 to 6 sub menus to once again change the way date and time look on my PC against my wishes just so I could play the game in English.

Either MS has a hard-on for anglicising the world with its platform or it is just terrible. Probably both.

Krysuk said:

Especially true of any windows that's had a feature update (service pack in the old days) applied
If you want an efficient system you build from the latest full installation from MS and avoid large updates for more than 1 version in the long term
I build a fresh image every other feature/creators update as a rule

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Ha, this is a very good point. Back in the day, I used to love making a new XP "slipstreamed" install disc every time a service pack dropped, where I could have a disc with all the updates and my core apps ready to go. It was fun when I was an undergraduate, so I had plenty of spare time and it taught me a lot.

Now I'm a time-poor dad with a full time job and other hobbies. I just want my computer to turn on when I push a button, and only do stuff I ask it to do. That's why I use Linux mostly these days. I know my Xubuntu 18.04 install will be supported through to 2023, and I'm confident that it will fire up after every update. I'm so sick of having to troubleshoot every time I Windows 10 forces an update on me, or when I want to install/uninstall a store app. And why the f$@& is a Windows install 70GB these days?!? Do they just not delete a line of code ever? I think my Xubuntu install sits at about 30GB for the OS plus all my non-game apps. Sometimes the OS disk usage SHRINKS after an update.

I'd definitely try MS's games if they weren't tied to the store; FH3&4 look breathtaking.

Durante said:

I use a Windows 7 system that was set up in mid-2013, and used continuously since then, with maybe 20 reboots in total.
And that's with an absolute ton of software installed and used, including wonky non-consumer and research stuff, as well as several hardware changes/additions.

Going from Windows 7 to 10 as a PC workstation OS only allows for a limited number of conclusions IMHO: (i) the people who worked on the former didn't work on the latter, (ii) the people who made decisions about the former weren't allowed to make them for the latter, (iii) they somehow forgot how to make a good PC OS in the interim, or (iv) making a OS for professional users was seen as a tertiary goal at best, subservient to enforcing distribution of a vehicle to be used as a wedge in the consumer mobile/tablet markets.

I think it's (iv).

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Yeap, I think that's a good summary of a mess that is the Enterprise market. We have been utilizing LTSB mode exclusively yet MS is pushing toward semi-annual releases. Dealing with MS on large Win10 deployments is painful.

Of course when you look at MS income from Win10 licenses in the Enterprise market it's going to be at least as large or probably larger which makes things even stranger.

RedHat though loves the situation. We have been going more and more toward Linux on workstations because of that.

scabobbs said:

I tried to download FH3 demo, and juts recently the FH4 demo and neither finished downloading and just stopped at a certain point. Great experience.

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LOL You avatar perfectly describes your experience of the Windows Store!

Dictator said:

My issues with the store are so long that I would grow tired of writing them.

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Perhaps you should write a special about it as well? I mean, now it seems that many people are willing to support the store and UWP anyway to play Microsofts exclusives, generating negative media attention may be the only way to force Microsoft into improving it. If gaming is as important to Microsoft as they claim, they'll have to respond somehow.

Ge0force said:

I really hope the rumors about Microsoft buying Obsidian aren't true. I'd hate to see their future games becoming Windows Store exclusive :(

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i'd be more sad about it being the end of them releasing drm-free versions.

Whenever I've been forced to interact with Microsoft's system, it's been a dumb confusing mess. But I'm yet to encounter any actual serious errors. Perhaps because I've not used it much.

Just stuff along the lines of wait...how do I start the game? How do I uninstall it? How do I make a shortcut? Is there really no other way to get to your Game Pass games than searching for "game pass", scrolling down to A-Z and clicking "show all"? Why does "My library" not do that? Why does "My library" continually claim I've recently bought Twitter and Candy Crush Saga? Why does the downloaded and installed FH4 not exist anywhere in "My library"? Why do different menus let you do different things with apps? Why can't you just right click a thing and do all the things like in the entire rest of Windows? Instead you have to look through the various menus until you find an option that lets you put a link in the Start menu, and then from there you can drag it to the desktop to make a goddamn shortcut. Why is everything so convoluted and nonsensical?

The user interface and experience is a nightmare. The whole thing seems to be the flimsiest framework. Thank goodness Game Pass is a thing. There's no way I'm buying a game on this wonky walled platform.

TheThreadsThatBindUs said:

This.

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Gfwl it was much longer ago also

They even had that games library section in windows Explorer that was probably the best gaming thing they put out on win7 which is now no longer working but can have shortcuts put in

It used to download game information and cover artwork

deadman322 said:

i'd be more sad about it being the end of them releasing drm-free versions.

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Well, if MS buys Obsidian that would be unfortunate. Despite some issues I really liked majority of their games.

If MS acquires them I won't play them because I hate playing Obsidian type RPGs on consoles and love using mods for them. I also hate Windows Store... :(

I don't see why MS would buy them. MS already burned Obsidian on a co-developed RPG which almost drove them out of business.

Ge0force said:

I really hope the rumors about Microsoft buying Obsidian aren't true. I'd hate to see their future games becoming Windows Store exclusive :(

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Obsidian has already been burned by Microsoft once already (Stormlands), something tells me they'd be hesitant with a full-on acquisition.

I could be very wrong though.

Durante said:

I use a Windows 7 system that was set up in mid-2013, and used continuously since then, with maybe 20 reboots in total.
And that's with an absolute ton of software installed and used, including wonky non-consumer and research stuff, as well as several hardware changes/additions

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You can absolutely do the same on Windows 10, you just need to disable Windows Update.
(Which you totes shouldn't do if your computer isn't air-gapped)

Knurek said:

You can absolutely do the same on Windows 10, you just need to disable Windows Update.
(Which you totes shouldn't do if your computer isn't air-gapped)

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Its not that simple and its don't matter when you disable Windows Update if somehow they turn on again.
Even using some alternative software for 'regedit' turn off they came back.

Knurek said:

You can absolutely do the same on Windows 10, you just need to disable Windows Update.
(Which you totes shouldn't do if your computer isn't air-gapped)

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The thread I replied to was about reinstalling Windows being a proposed fix to store troubles. This has nothing to do with Windows update, and is an obviously ludicrous idea for anything but the most vanilla consumer system (which basically just runs a web browser).

~Fake said:

Its not that simple and its don't matter when you disable Windows Update if somehow they turn on again.
Even using some alternative software for 'regedit' turn off they came back.

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In my experience WUB does block it completely. (Then again, I've not installed the latest updates on any of my production systems)

I recently spent 2 hours going back and fourth with MS to figure out why all the installation buttons for purchased content in the store were missing.

It was when I'd signed up for game pass for the first time to play Sea of Theives, went through a sorts of hoops of logging out of this and logging out of that. Taking game pass of my account and putting it back on.

Killing windows store processes and Xbox processes.

Only for me, myself, to find that I needed a windows update, updated the OS and the buttons were restored. Not even tech support suggested that in those 2 hours.

Durante said:

The thread I replied to was about reinstalling Windows being a proposed fix to store troubles. This has nothing to do with Windows update, and is an obviously ludicrous idea for anything but the most vanilla consumer system (which basically just runs a web browser)

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I was replying to your 20 reboots in 5 years claim, which from my experience at work (still on Win7 Ultimate) is only valid if you disable Win Update.
(Which you also can do on Win 10, and which you totally shouldn't do)
I have no issues with Windows Store on my Win 10 install, but that's only because uninstalling it was one of the first things I did when I upgraded from Win 7.

Durante said:

In my experience WUB does block it completely. (Then again, I've not installed the latest updates on any of my production systems)

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I talking about updates like 'october update' or those 'service pack like' updates. Most of then reset everythink.

Durante said:

I use a Windows 7 system that was set up in mid-2013, and used continuously since then, with maybe 20 reboots in total.
And that's with an absolute ton of software installed and used, including wonky non-consumer and research stuff, as well as several hardware changes/additions.

Going from Windows 7 to 10 as a PC workstation OS only allows for a limited number of conclusions IMHO: (i) the people who worked on the former didn't work on the latter, (ii) the people who made decisions about the former weren't allowed to make them for the latter, (iii) they somehow forgot how to make a good PC OS in the interim, or (iv) making a OS for professional users was seen as a tertiary goal at best, subservient to enforcing distribution of a vehicle to be used as a wedge in the consumer mobile/tablet markets.

I think it's (iv).

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I think it's (iv) too with a bit of (ii) thrown into the mix. Windows 7 was such a great OS to take as a basis for future Windows releases, all it needed was a bit modernization under the hood (which, to be fair, happened with Windows 10 more or less) and a modest UI refresh to make it flexible so it's able to handle different input-paradigms. Heck the Superbar was already a pretty amazing idea for both mouse and touch input! Bolting on Windows Phone and integrating it in some core aspects of Windows was the worst possible way to go about this though.

I'm also happy to hear of someone else who made hardware changes without reinstalling Windows. I've been doing this since Vista and I even made the switch from AMD to Intel without reinstalling Windows 7 back then and had zero problems. Yet I've always hear of major warnings about not installing Windows fresh, even from knowledgeable people, who claim it leads to internal OS errors and grave problems although I never found and single evidence for this. With Windows 10 a hardware-swap is even easier, when I went from a 3570k to a 8600k my Windows 10 install was ready in one go after a short "Getting your devices ready" detour. Not going to lie I was impressed by that, with Windows 7 it always took three reboots to get everything installed.

The only mistake I made in my endless dualboot and Windows carryover legacy is that my Windows drive isn't designated as C: which never caused me any problems but one. Atleast I suspect it to be the cause for MBR2GPT failing with Windows 10 1803. Windows 10 boots fine after the conversion but all I get is a black screen with a cursor and after ruling everything out I get the feeling that the process somehow wants to "fix" Windows and make it see itself as C: again which causes a major mess. I have no doubt that the edge-case of a MBR to GPT conversion with a system drive not being designated as C: was never tested :P

TheZynster said:

yes, I really want to do this with 70GB-100GB games and a data cap

thats a shit solution

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You can reinstall windows without losing anything.

YuriLowell said:

You can reinstall windows without losing anything.

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UWP games must be reinstalled from my testing

The windows store is the most frustrating thing I've encountered in a while. It's amazing how the problems and solutions make zero sense. Yesterday everything worked fine. Now I can't access games on the store or log into Forza.
I don't understand.

Edit: I "fixed" it by fucking around with windows user accounts for an hour. Still can't access games from the store, but was able to sign into Forza.

This sounds like my experience with FH3. It took hours to just get the damn store to download anything, let alone FH3. After finally getting it to download and install,I had it crash after the opening movie, crash during the loading screen thing. I finally got it to play, but then one day it decided not to start anymore and then i just stopped trying and admitted defeat. What a horrible store.

Paid for a month of game pass on my PC to try FH4, tried to download it on my laptop and the store opens but nothing will load when I click through.

Going through some quite ridiculous 'fixes' just now.

Plus, everytime my PC updates I have to remove all my harddrives but the boot drive just to get it to start up. Then it fucks up all my drive letters which plays havoc with my backups.

Edit: lol, just realised it's still trying to download Blizzard Mountain for FH3

Edit: edit: got FH4 started by going to the online store. Fingers crossed.

Cthulhu_Steev said:

Paid for a month of game pass on my PC to try FH4, tried to download it on my laptop and the store opens but nothing will load when I click through.

Going through some quite ridiculous 'fixes' just now.

Plus, everytime my PC updates I have to remove all my harddrives but the boot drive just to get it to start up. Then it fucks up all my drive letters which plays havoc with my backups.

Edit: lol, just realised it's still trying to download Blizzard Mountain for FH3

Edit: edit: got FH4 started by going to the online store. Fingers crossed.

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And people wonder why GAME PASS so far is only catering to Consoles or at least being promoted mostly for the console. I wouldn't promote it for PC until the shit worked seamlessly with the storefront. I hope in the background part of their whole reboot of xbox, they are secretly redoing the PC side from the ground up. It needs it badly, and I want to use it for Gears 5, and Halo when ever it comes. Even though it was a major pain in the ass, when it worked Gears 4 was great on PC. I got at least over a 100 hours or more in Horde mode alone.

Ge0force said:

I really hope the rumors about Microsoft buying Obsidian aren't true. I'd hate to see their future games becoming Windows Store exclusive :(

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I concur, I will cry.

Durante said:

I use a Windows 7 system that was set up in mid-2013, and used continuously since then, with maybe 20 reboots in total.
And that's with an absolute ton of software installed and used, including wonky non-consumer and research stuff, as well as several hardware changes/additions.

Going from Windows 7 to 10 as a PC workstation OS only allows for a limited number of conclusions IMHO: (i) the people who worked on the former didn't work on the latter, (ii) the people who made decisions about the former weren't allowed to make them for the latter, (iii) they somehow forgot how to make a good PC OS in the interim, or (iv) making a OS for professional users was seen as a tertiary goal at best, subservient to enforcing distribution of a vehicle to be used as a wedge in the consumer mobile/tablet markets.

I think it's (iv).

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It's more (i) and (ii) with new leadership thus new business goals. Most people who worked on Windows 7 are no longer at the company. If they are they were promoted into leadership roles or most likely moved to other divisions. Same with Xbox 360 vs Xbox 1.

If you were around in the Windows 7 days and you were not dumb with your financial situation you can probably semi retire by now or choose to work on what you want.

That's just the nature of big business especially corporate America. Nothing will ever stay the same because there is constant pressure to continue to drive up profits and for new leadership to have business impact and leave their mark.

Due to the churn maintenance on code bases especially is very challenging. You're dealing with code that has been around since day 1 and the people who originally wrote it are long gone. Even Forza Motorsport is a 10 year old codebase and despite the team wanting to make changes risk mitigation has to be taken into account.

Management wants changes now not after you refactor things which adds up technical debt over time but they don't care as they won't be around to deal with the codebase 10 years from now.

Durante said:

I use a Windows 7 system that was set up in mid-2013, and used continuously since then, with maybe 20 reboots in total.
And that's with an absolute ton of software installed and used, including wonky non-consumer and research stuff, as well as several hardware changes/additions.

Going from Windows 7 to 10 as a PC workstation OS only allows for a limited number of conclusions IMHO: (i) the people who worked on the former didn't work on the latter, (ii) the people who made decisions about the former weren't allowed to make them for the latter, (iii) they somehow forgot how to make a good PC OS in the interim, or (iv) making a OS for professional users was seen as a tertiary goal at best, subservient to enforcing distribution of a vehicle to be used as a wedge in the consumer mobile/tablet markets.

I think it's (iv).

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You have only restarted that PC only 20 times in 5 years? WOW :O

Windows 10 is trash. The store only matches the OS' quality.

It's crazy to think that there will never be another Windows (sure we will see about that ...). I hope some of the future creator updates make it a better overall experience, but after three years of updates bringing more trouble than solutions, I doubt it.

elenarie said:

In DX12 on Windows 10, they made Borderless perform as well as EF, no more perf drop.

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Input lag as well? That has been my main concern.

Dictator said:

THis is ONLY for the WIndows Store products, which do not allow you to adjust your language in game and take over this option from Windows display language.

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Yeah, Forza games use "regional format" settings to determine the language they are running in. So if you have English as Windows display language but don't want to have AM/PM for your time display or Sunday as a first week day - you're fucked.

This has more to do with how these games approach their localization choice than UWP or WinStore, of course, but it still shows the level of thinking that MS is putting into their 1st party software. I mean, there are literally zero PC games for the last five or even more years that do this - precisely because it's incorrect to use Windows regional settings to determine the language of display and/or audio. Not MS though, they are still somewhere around 2004 in their current PC gaming releases.

Ge0force said:

Perhaps you should write a special about it as well? I mean, now it seems that many people are willing to support the store and UWP anyway to play Microsofts exclusives, generating negative media attention may be the only way to force Microsoft into improving it. If gaming is as important to Microsoft as they claim, they'll have to respond somehow.

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With how Microsoft has scarcely addressed or even acknowledged the problems people have been having with the store in the past several years, it's clear they just do not care about whether people like the store or not. I don't think any amount of media coverage is going to make them suddenly start giving a damn.

Dinjoralo said:

With how Microsoft has scarcely addressed or even acknowledged the problems people have been having with the store in the past several years, it's clear they just do not care about whether people like the store or not.

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Which is bizarre.

I don't understand what Microsoft's strategy with the store could possibly be.

And then some Microsoft Rep will say with a straight face that they're dropping pc gaming because poor sales... And fail to mention their store is a piece of garbage.

elenarie said:

In DX12 on Windows 10, they made Borderless perform as well as EF, no more perf drop. Thus there is no reason for EF to exist anymore.

Obviously there is hardware and games that prefer it. The transition will take 5-10 years, but it will eventually fully go away.

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DX9 and DX11 still lose a bit of performance in Borderless right? Ever since I had a GTX 1070 I wrote the performance-loss off as negligible but when I made some tests a few weeks ago I was a bit shocked how much more consistent and faster EF can be in non-DX12 scenarios.

Windows update seriously fucked me over today. Had a meeting with a huge client to show them a VR project I've been working on. Usually for public demonstrations, I'll use a Windows VR headset because they don't require setting up base stations or anything. So I test everything out last night before going to bed, everything runs fine. I get up in the morning, and notice Windows had updated. Figured it wouldn't be a big problem, so I packed everything up and go off to my demonstration.

Lots of people standing around, including the big boss of the entity I'm developing for, waiting for their demo. I log into Steam alright, SteamVR pops up and says it sees my Windows VR headset fine. Login to my Epic account, open UE4, it loads fine, also detected my VR headset. Go to launch the demo and the Windows Mixed Reality portal pops up. "Oops, something went wrong, sorry." That was the entirety of the error message. No real way to trouble shoot it. What was promised to be 10 minutes of setup turned into about an hour of fumbling around in silence as people watched and the windows VR headset shit itself over and over again.

I am extremely fortunate that someone in their media department downstairs actually had a Vive in storage. They grabbed me a cart and we set up the Vive and 10 minutes after the demo was up and running. The problem was entirely on Microsoft's end, the way their VR software is deeply integrated into windows. It worked last night literally right before I went to bed, and the only thing that changed between then and my pitch was Windows updated. Best I can tell, the windows update broke their VR support for me.

Again, thank fucking god for that Vive, because it could have turned really ugly. I've actually been recommending those Windows VR headsets for quick demonstrations for a year now, not anymore.