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What if men had a curfew? [hypothetical thought exercise, not literal]
- Thread starter Dan Thunder
- Start date
No, I am not. And again, I want to be clear that I understand women are at risk at night. I understand they feel scared. I think that sucks, and I think that we should live in a world where they don't have to feel that way. I am in no way minimizing the situation women are in, or saying "but what if reverse!" or anything like that.
I'm simply saying you cannot expect to have a thread title like this, based on an article title like that, based on a Twitter thread that raises the question, and expect people not to engage with that question at least on some level.
That is not the only thing the thread is about, but it is one thing it is about.
To engage with the question sincerely, as in trying to figure out the logistics, morality, and legality of managing a gender-based curfew, is to inherently undermine the actual point the question is raising.
You're not helping. Like, at all.
I did. Kinda disappointed tbh.
Was curious to see if he measured up to the average Era male's 8 inches.
I mean, you're saying that you'd rather talk about an impossible scenario than the actual thing said scenario is supposed to make you consider.
Like...come on man.
"I know women have it tough....but MEN THOUGH...."
Ask the women you know how they feel about going out at night alone.
I'm not attacking you, but the prospective will likely give you something to think about.
While there is no denying some women avoid black men, the problem is women when on the street have to fear all men. I would bet the majority of women who avoid on the street you are avoid men in general- not just black men. There are NO visual cues to separate the good guys from the bad guys.
If you are doing everything right like you say- the problem is social condition that no women is safe alone on a street. Racism can be a factor, but it is second to a women's safety. Do you think black women avoid you on the street because they are racist, or is is simple you are a strange man that they rather not be wrong about?
Ah, what a novel exercise. Makes you really think about all the random things you do before going out at night. Even now at 37 my husband stresses if I go out alone after sunset. When I did my study in Kyoto when I was 25 my host family put me under a curfew. I was not allowed to go out after 6PM because they were concerned for my safety. Can you imagine that as a grown woman? :P
Aye~
Aye~
I've said what the thread is about several times.
The entire curfew thing is just a framework to get women to share the things they'd do if the threat of street harassment was gone.
That's the topic, the small, good, fun, things many men take for granted that women avoid doing doing because of street harassment.
I mean, not all the types of things discussed in this article are your traditional "oh those thugs (aka black people)" violent crime. Like "oh I would be able to have a drink at the bar and not worry about it being spiked" is not the type of thing associated with black males.
Frankly I disagree simply because like I said, nothing about the article actually insinuates this is an American driven point. It applies pretty much everywhere.
I'll keep it real man. When your response is "I'll only acknowledge this if white women acknowledge thier shit" its hard to see this as not invalidating those experiences at all. It frames it more like your only conditionally gonna accept this based off of stuff not even really said in the article or really by anyone but you.
Like I said, I'm a black dude too but I dont really see where this needs to be about black and white vs men just acknowledging the environment we help foster to women's detriment.
I can.
And I will... because it's flat out not about installing a curfew
That's not at all what I'm fucking saying. I am not one of the people in this thread saying anything about whether or not a curfew or men is realistic or how you would do it or if it's fair or anything. Don't put that shit on me.
I'm just saying it's understandable that someone comes in a thread with this title and attempts to answer it the question in the title of it. I am NOT defending any answer to this question, because I think most of them are very dumb at best, or misogynist at worst.
And I find it honestly insulting that I have a mod sitting here telling me "you're not helping" when this is a constant issue on this site. So many stupid or bad thread titles are edited or have "READ OP" (laughably) added because the original thread titles are bad, sensationalist, misrepresentative of the question being asked, etc.
It's becoming more of a problem and it does not contribute to a culture of good, honest discussion.
Your last 4 or 5 posts are literally you saying that.
"No I get it, I get it...it's fine I get it......BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT"
Why are you focusing on the but. If you get it, add to the conversation, don't keep playing dumb about how you don't like the hypothetical. FFS.
No Read OP is added because way to many people here don't like to read.
The title works because it is the framework which inspires women to share the things they'd like to do.
It's a poetic version of the question What Would You Do if The Risk of Street Harassment Wasn't There?
Anyone who reads anything on this sees that...
so, like any other night for me?
but seriously, in a hypothetical scenario where every man followed the rule, I do believe women might feel safer. However, if it's just cis men then I argue that the fear would still be there. gay and transgendered men can still be thieves and murderers. I also pondered how long will that feeling of safety last if crime continues.
but seriously, in a hypothetical scenario where every man followed the rule, I do believe women might feel safer. However, if it's just cis men then I argue that the fear would still be there. gay and transgendered men can still be thieves and murderers. I also pondered how long will that feeling of safety last if crime continues.
It's dumb deflective non sense to imply women from fucking Toronto and Ottawa have no issues of safety or anxiety about being out late and alone. Those feelings are caused almost solely by men And yes, it is fucking dumb to imply that because Canada is lower crime than the US suddenly all the issues of being out late and alone suddenly disappear for women.
Its not a misconstrue. You said you've seen women out late in Toronto and Ottawa. No shit, the point wasn't they wouldn't ever do it.
Obviously lower crime lowers general fear levels. What exactly does that have to do with anything? As a black man I'm way more comfortable walking in downtown Toronto at night than walking around in the hood. So? Who wouldn't?
Lmao, just arguing in poor faith. I'm out.
Understood at the first bolded. As far as the second, my ego is making it difficult to swallow as I can still get killed off some racist shit. But I don't disagree... I'm sure the numbers support your statement.
I'm just concerned because there doesn't seem to be an answer to the problem besides provide empathy. I guess this is hard for a lot of men because men typically want to provide solutions when faced with an issue, not just empathy.
And no, I've never had a black woman do any of that. Only white women here in the States and places like Germany, England, France, and Italy sadly.
Posters have an obligation to actually read the content of the OP before blurting out their shitty take. You'll get called out for not doing that in any thread, especially if it's a sensitive subject.
The fact that you're blaming the thread title instead of the posters who don't actually read the OP is honestly strange.
Like, I'm a dude, and in half the conversations with my female friends I feel like some sort of giant just fucking stomping through the countryside with my ignorance. So I'm not some gold standard or whatever.
But then I come here and the amount of guys who are just incapable (or flat out unwilling) to understand even the simplest concepts from a female point of view, making the same dumb statements over and over with zero self-awareness, completely missing the point...
Like, it can't be that hard, right? You'd have to be deliberately obtuse to see the premise of the thread and not immediately understand that it's a rhetorical statement.
But then I come here and the amount of guys who are just incapable (or flat out unwilling) to understand even the simplest concepts from a female point of view, making the same dumb statements over and over with zero self-awareness, completely missing the point...
Like, it can't be that hard, right? You'd have to be deliberately obtuse to see the premise of the thread and not immediately understand that it's a rhetorical statement.
As a guy that got jumped literally on his own street corner coming home from work by 3 dudes and a few months back being followed by to guys a few blocks away from that I am literally terrified any more to be out at night. Especially that I rely on public transit.
People realize it's not just assault too right?
It's catcalling, following, verbal harassment that's part of it.
It's catcalling, following, verbal harassment that's part of it.
You can believe women and understand there is a problem with shitty men and also think the thread / article title is bad.
FWIW, a curfew on men would also protect men that get assaulted by other men too.
How can I get that when the actual person in question is telling me different? What practical thing am I to do? I'm going to show her this post and I am almost certain she'd say it doesn't apply to our city (which was my jumping off point to this thread). Shell say it's a very real concern in India, the US, other places she has lived and traveled. But not here.
You need to 1.) realize that it's not just that one dude she doesn't like at the office, it's likely every 3rd guy she sees on the street
And 2.) realize and understand the very real peril she likely faces every time she leaves your presence and is alone because some random person that you don't see coming thinks she's a vulnerable target simply because she's a woman on her own.
That's what we're talking about here. That's what this thread is about. The point of the hypothetical was to make you think about what it must feel like for the women you love to be able to move about outside of a state of fear simply because men aren't around. THAT is the plight of women.
I don't understand how you don't get that.
She feels very safe here and she doesn't even feel unsafe alone with that man at work. And I don't picture myself sheltering her from things she doesn't even fear.
Actually, this is inaccurate. We usually add "READ OP" because people don't read the OP, they read the headline and jump straight to drive-by/hot takes posting without understanding the actual context of the topic, and those cause derails. When the OP itself is bad, we typically lock the thread and/or reboot it with more information.
Another thing that causes derailing, are people clutching at their pearls at how bad the title is and how you can't possibly have a good discussion with such a baaaad thread title... despite said discussion actually already happening, even whilst some loud voices insisting that it can't, in a tone that sounds borderline like backseat moderation. Sounds familiar?
In other words: your concerns about the thread title (which really couldn't be made any clearer if I tried) have been noted. Now please stop derailing this thread and let people discuss the actual topic. If you have further questions, feel free to PM me.
You're not helping in the sense that you are harping on this after the thread title was edited to spell out for people that this was, indeed, a hypothetical, and not actually a serious attack on men's autonomy and freedom after an arbitrary time of night. However, the original title was nonetheless accurate and would've only required reading about two or three sentences of the OP- much less the actual Twitter thread- to glean enough context to respond in good faith versus knee jerking, and it is a lot less obtuse than a lot of the joke threads we allow to remain unedited. This tangent is now fully about how men feel, which inherently undermines the entire point and premise of this hypothetical regardless of your statements that you also understand why women have anxiety at night. Time and place.
I get the feeling this is going to be eye opening for you.
Edit: Oh you're in Canada? This is DEFINITELY going to be eye opening for you.
I have asked it. My comment was based on their feedback to the matter. I don't actually presume to project my male experience onto women, even I'm not that daft. Finland is like japan where it's really safe to walk around during night. When the whole metoo thing happened this was talked a lot. I'm not saying bad stuff never happen to women during night, I don't think you even thought I would try to peddle that kind of bullshit.
It would be a moo point as I also couldn't go out or come home from work I guess. More on topic would a curfew actually do anything as men that follow the law would probably be less likely to break other laws while those willing to break curfew would likely break other laws?
This thread is very informative. The reason shit is so slow to change is that there are people who even after being beaten on the head that things are a certain way are still able to look you in the eye and shit out the same misinformed garbage over and over.
"This thread isn't about literally forcing men to stay at home."
"Oh, I understand. But wouldn't incarcerating men be really difficult to do?"
"Nobody would try to do that, it's just a hypothetical to understand the affect that men have, even when not aware, on women."
"I see what you mean. If all men are forced to stay home, how would infrastructure work? Don't technicians need to be on hand at all times?"
"That is irrelevant. We are just talking about the weight taken from women's shoulders to not have to second guess if a man is going to cause her harm or risk offending or enraging a man when she is out."
"Oh yes, of course. I agree. I'm a nice guy and would never assault a woman. Would I also be forced into slavery by these powerful women who would enact these brutal laws against men? Also, don't women commit crimes too? Isn't it unfair to men that we talk about the affects on women being ignored and talked over when it comes to their safety and well being?"
"This thread isn't about literally forcing men to stay at home."
"Oh, I understand. But wouldn't incarcerating men be really difficult to do?"
"Nobody would try to do that, it's just a hypothetical to understand the affect that men have, even when not aware, on women."
"I see what you mean. If all men are forced to stay home, how would infrastructure work? Don't technicians need to be on hand at all times?"
"That is irrelevant. We are just talking about the weight taken from women's shoulders to not have to second guess if a man is going to cause her harm or risk offending or enraging a man when she is out."
"Oh yes, of course. I agree. I'm a nice guy and would never assault a woman. Would I also be forced into slavery by these powerful women who would enact these brutal laws against men? Also, don't women commit crimes too? Isn't it unfair to men that we talk about the affects on women being ignored and talked over when it comes to their safety and well being?"
I never ever said "disappear" or zero issues of safety or security. You're very obviously misquoting me intentionally and you want to claim I'm arguing in poor faith? Hilarious.
For assault, maybe. For less-likely-to-get-prosecuted things like harassment /intimidation it would probably curb that, predominately affecting women.
I'm not saying that.
I encourage people to listen to the women that they trust and in turn, trust them.
Someone brought up in the "why didn't you report your rape" thread from yesterday that a big factor on why no one said anything was because they were afraid of the response of their loved ones. Like, they might tell you about A guy, a particular guy who the system might do away with if he gets too bad, but you often won't hear about...the guy that followed her for 4 blocks and only left when she ducked into a coffee shop on the way home. The little things, the everydays.
I'm glad you're discussing this stuff with your SigOt, most people don't because it's easier not to.
People who personalize this shit ignoring the broader picture are the worst.
Fun fact, the first time I have ever witnessed a cat call was last month on a trip I took California. Before that never saw it.
Would it be reasonable then for me to deny cat calling is a real thing women experience because I saw it once in one isolated incident?
The answer is no because there is so much evidence that this shit happens and with frquency that using personal experience to define it is being obtuse.
Are there women out there who will just feel safe enough or bold enough to do whatever the fuck they want when they want? Of course. Earth is a big place. Is there copious amounts of data out there saying many women experience harassment and feelings of anxiety being out alone at night or isolated from friends? Hell fucking yes. How is this hard to grasp?
Fun fact, the first time I have ever witnessed a cat call was last month on a trip I took California. Before that never saw it.
Would it be reasonable then for me to deny cat calling is a real thing women experience because I saw it once in one isolated incident?
The answer is no because there is so much evidence that this shit happens and with frquency that using personal experience to define it is being obtuse.
Are there women out there who will just feel safe enough or bold enough to do whatever the fuck they want when they want? Of course. Earth is a big place. Is there copious amounts of data out there saying many women experience harassment and feelings of anxiety being out alone at night or isolated from friends? Hell fucking yes. How is this hard to grasp?
I'm sorry for white women treating you like that. It is bullshit that they do.
I'm a white women, of the times I've known I was stalked and harassed, it was by white men. Women are right fearful to be fearful, but that doesn't excuse them from not being educated who is more likely attack them.
You're the one desperately trying to make this all about something else instead about the stories women collectively experience because of the gender.
I saw it. It may very well be that the majority of places to live have this as a widespread problem, but that doesn't preclude the fact that some places may be safer than others. Hell, when my sister came to visit me here she remarked on how safe she felt. There's also a big difference between places where people think to themselves "I don't go out after dark" versus "I want to avoid that person over there". Neither is desirable, but one is more tolerable than the other.
You have good parents. If you are not being vigilant most of the day your not being very bright.
Not much of a think piece. Yeah, it would be safer for a time and then the shitty women would begin to prey on the weak at night. One predator leaves another will take its place. Which brings us back to square one.
Everyone be vigilant especially at night.
Yeah, but you have to know that coming into a thread about women being afraid for their safety just because you don't like the way that conversation is being oriented is like... really, REALLY dismissive, right?
If you don't have anything to say about the actual, obvious subject of the thread - women being harassed by men at night, and why that sucks - it's okay just to... not talk about it. Trying to steer the discussion away from that because it's phrased in a way that bothers you is obnoxious.
When women say "most men don't care about our issues" this is what they mean. Caring more about semantics than harassment. This all seems really, painfully obvious to me.
No shit some are safer than others, but bringing that up is pointless and usually just done to try and section off the issue to just one of geography and poverty.
Because again it's not just the bad parts of town where this happens...
All these anecdotes about how you know women who feel safe serves only to downplay the issue
You're not wrong though in that talking to women we know might open our eyes. It did open my eyes, just not about this particular aspect. Now the revelation about how much bad stuff goes on inside houses, parties, abuses. Shit was way higher in volume than I ever thought it would be. That was the big revelation to me.