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DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
Hey everyone, I found this article by Kotaku really interesting, mainly because it covers a wide variety of situations that have been common with fighting games as of lately, specially capcom's, see most people always tend to pick up the most popular/high tier characters in fighting games and I believe a lot of potential is lost due to that, since in the end we rarely see some of these interesting matchups or the true potential of these believed-to-be lesser characters in the game, and some people just tend to try and replicate what they see that other pro's are doing, and I believe thats not the optimal approach, take for example RISE | MenaRD, he never stopped believing in his character Birdie since the beginning, even when it wasn't considered to be top tier by the comunitty, yet mena managed to win 2017's cup with a mid tier at best character against some of the strongest pro players in the scene, specially evo 2017's champion tokido who uses Akuma, which is believed to be one of the top tier characters in the game.

Take a look at the matches described in this article, TIGER | Luiman20's Dalshim vs eSPR | Mono's F.A.N.G., really entertaining and different, 2 characters commonly overlooked in the scene, yet these 2 amazing players managed to get to top 8 and face each other. I personally believe this is one of the best aspects of fighting games, and that is the magic of identifying with your character, me, for example, always been a Ken main, and I dont care if he is considered strong or weak, I'll always main him, because I identify with my character, but lately we see some players dropping their fav characters and gravitate towards those characters that are considered better, even Daigo who has been rocking Ryu since SFIV, had to drop him and use guile, most of ken's players are droping him and using akuma instead, and I believe that is not healthy for the game, since we will all end up just having cammys and akumas in our top 32/16/8s. So I am really glad Kotaku is picking up on this story and showing people that it is possible to get to top 8 with low tier characters and also enterteinting for the public to watch new exciting matchups on scene.

And here is where the other situation comes around, lately a lot of these players that try to pick up different characters are from Latin America, a region that as this article states:

Despite being underserved by Capcom, the Latin American region is full of incredible Street Fighter V players, most notably reigning Capcom Cup champion Saul "MenaRD" Mena. Fighting Fest, which takes place on MenaRD's home turf of the Dominican Republic, played host to 112 competitors

Being from the Latin America Region myself (Dominican Republic) yeah I also believe capcom could do a better job at servicing the latin america comunitty, for example there are official capcom usa and japan channels, yet I believe that as of now there isnt any channel for spanish speaking players. As Mena and other highly skilled players from latin america have shown, there is a lot of really strong players around here and capcom should try and give this region much more well deserved exposure.

So what do you think fighting era? do you tend to use the more popular/high tier characters? or do you go with the one that you feel more identifying regardless of their possition on tier lists? do you like matchups between lesser tier characters like this? or do you rather your top tier characters matchups? do you think Latin America is getting the exposure it deserves by capcom? Don't you think SFV top 8 in tournaments would be better for the audience if there was a highter variety of characters shown? let me know what you think.

Link to the article : https://kotaku.com/rare-character-matchup-punctuates-dominican-street-figh-1829506196

Bonus: top 5 moments of the tournament:


 

mnemonicj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,651
Honduras
Nice thread.
I also hope Capcom starts looking into developing more fighters from the Latin America region.
They've done some work, but I hope there's even more variery in the future.
 

Osu 16 Bit

QA Lead at NetherRealm Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,928
Chicago, IL
I play who I connect with, mostly aesthetically. So the coolest girl character who's play style I enjoy. I do not consider the tier list and have competed with a lower tier character at a high level of play.

I do not have a preference for match ups as a viewer. If I like the character I like watching them. If the play is good it's good.

Capcom probably gives the Latin America scene the proper exposure. They're not as strong as other regions but still get a chance to shine.
 

Omar310

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
UK
I agree that it's mad boring how everyone rushes to top tiers and very few explore characters that aren't immediately strong. That being said, I think a lot of the blame falls on the developers to make sure the cast is balanced properly (which I appreciate is probably easier said than done). Capcom especially feels like they have no clue how to balance their game and it's becoming increasingly frustrating to play a low tier character.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
I agree that it's mad boring how everyone rushes to top tiers and very few explore characters that aren't immediately strong. That being said, I think a lot of the blame falls on the developers to make sure the cast is balanced properly (which I appreciate is probably easier said than done). Capcom especially feels like they have no clue how to balance their game and it's becoming increasingly frustrating to play a low tier character.
SFV has some stupid shit, but it's one of the better balanced fighters I've played. Yes there are clear tiers, but you can still take matches even with low tier characters. This is coming from an Alex player.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,851
Santa Albertina
The issue lies in if there is a prize included then I will use the best tool to try to be first and win the prize.

Balance is essential unless that happens everybody will choose the best tool to compete each other and that is fine.

Said that SFV barely has big difference in Tiers... that is a great thing if you wish to have any character (tool) being competitive.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,586
Seattle, WA
I watch fighting game tourneys as a sidelines fan—I enjoy watching high level play without studying the meta and tier analysis and whathaveyou. So I dunno if everyone who "knows better" would puke at this suggestion. But.

I would *love* to see traditional fighting game tourneys that instituted some required swaps to other characters. Example: a mix of drafting/banning before a given series, followed by a requirement to swap to another combatant after every single mini-series won. Maybe a few best-of-three series, where each ends with the winner having a required swap, and then the loser can pick whichever fighter they want in their pool as a response. Whoever wins two (or three) of these best-of-three series first moves on.
 

Osu 16 Bit

QA Lead at NetherRealm Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,928
Chicago, IL
I watch fighting game tourneys as a sidelines fan—I enjoy watching high level play without studying the meta and tier analysis and whathaveyou. So I dunno if everyone who "knows better" would puke at this suggestion. But.

I would *love* to see traditional fighting game tourneys that instituted some required swaps to other characters. Example: a mix of drafting/banning before a given series, followed by a requirement to swap to another combatant after every single mini-series won. Maybe a few best-of-three series, where each ends with the winner having a required swap, and then the loser can pick whichever fighter they want in their pool as a response. Whoever wins two (or three) of these best-of-three series first moves on.


No thank you. I definitely would never enter a tournament like that. When I play fighters I connect with my main and only want to play her and get better with her.

Would be convoluted and take forever too. We can barely do a single best of 3 series on time now anyway.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,152
SFV balance is good and you can even win with lower tier characters .
Still at the end of the day people playing for money or this there job you going to choose the best tools to get it done.
 
OP
OP

DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
I watch fighting game tourneys as a sidelines fan—I enjoy watching high level play without studying the meta and tier analysis and whathaveyou. So I dunno if everyone who "knows better" would puke at this suggestion. But.

I would *love* to see traditional fighting game tourneys that instituted some required swaps to other characters. Example: a mix of drafting/banning before a given series, followed by a requirement to swap to another combatant after every single mini-series won. Maybe a few best-of-three series, where each ends with the winner having a required swap, and then the loser can pick whichever fighter they want in their pool as a response. Whoever wins two (or three) of these best-of-three series first moves on.
I am also a fan of this. Nintendo did this kind of in their smash ultimate invitional, every player had to pick 3 characters and if they use one of them in a round, the next round said participan had to pick one of the other 2 remaining characters. It was really entertaining and fun to watch some pro's try their best at some new characters. This could very well develop into its own kind of battle royale rumble (for a lack of a better name) tournaments.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
I watch fighting game tourneys as a sidelines fan—I enjoy watching high level play without studying the meta and tier analysis and whathaveyou. So I dunno if everyone who "knows better" would puke at this suggestion. But.

I would *love* to see traditional fighting game tourneys that instituted some required swaps to other characters. Example: a mix of drafting/banning before a given series, followed by a requirement to swap to another combatant after every single mini-series won. Maybe a few best-of-three series, where each ends with the winner having a required swap, and then the loser can pick whichever fighter they want in their pool as a response. Whoever wins two (or three) of these best-of-three series first moves on.
It takes a long time to know the intricacies of just one character, even for a professional. It wouldn't work (for Street Fighter).
 

Blu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
807
The thing about Daigo is that he used Guile in SF2 and Ken in 3S. You may know him for his Ryu in SFIV (he also bounced around with Yun and ended up with E. Ryu near the end of SFIV), but he certainly isn't a one character for life guy.
 

Deleted member 43446

User requested account closure
Banned
May 15, 2018
748
Hey everyone, I found this article by Kotaku really interesting, mainly because it covers a wide variety of situations that have been common with fighting games as of lately, specially capcom's, see most people always tend to pick up the most popular/high tier characters in fighting games and I believe a lot of potential is lost due to that, since in the end we rarely see some of these interesting matchups or the true potential of these believed-to-be lesser characters in the game, and some people just tend to try and replicate what they see that other pro's are doing, and I believe thats not the optimal approach, take for example RISE | MenaRD, he never stopped believing in his character Birdie since the beginning, even when it wasn't considered to be top tier by the comunitty, yet mena managed to win 2017's cup with a mid tier at best character against some of the strongest pro players in the scene, specially evo 2017's champion tokido who uses Akuma, which is believed to be one of the top tier characters in the game.

Take a look at the matches described in this article, TIGER | Luiman20's Dalshim vs eSPR | Mono's F.A.N.G., really entertaining and different, 2 characters commonly overlooked in the scene, yet these 2 amazing players managed to get to top 8 and face each other. I personally believe this is one of the best aspects of fighting games, and that is the magic of identifying with your character, me, for example, always been a Ken main, and I dont care if he is considered strong or weak, I'll always main him, because I identify with my character, but lately we see some players dropping their fav characters and gravitate towards those characters that are considered better, even Daigo who has been rocking Ryu since SFIV, had to drop him and use guile, most of ken's players are droping him and using akuma instead, and I believe that is not healthy for the game, since we will all end up just having cammys and akumas in our top 32/16/8s. So I am really glad Kotaku is picking up on this story and showing people that it is possible to get to top 8 with low tier characters and also enterteinting for the public to watch new exciting matchups on scene.

And here is where the other situation comes around, lately a lot of these players that try to pick up different characters are from Latin America, a region that as this article states:



Being from the Latin America Region myself (Dominican Republic)
yeah I also believe capcom could do a better job at servicing the latin america comunitty, for example there are official capcom usa and japan channels, yet I believe that as of now there isnt any channel for spanish speaking players. As Mena and other highly skilled players from latin america have shown, there is a lot of really strong players around here and capcom should try and give this region much more well deserved exposure.

De lo mio! :)

The Street Fighter games were always very popular back when I used to live in DR but i didn't expect there to be any big tournaments in the country, and we even have a champion? that's kinda awesome.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,773
South Central Los Angeles
There def needs to be a Spanish language Capcom Fighters channel.

The talent is there to support it.

DR, for my money, seems to be the per capita best in the world right now.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,586
Seattle, WA
I definitely would never enter a tournament like that. When I play fighters I connect with my main and only want to play her and get better with her.

It takes a long time to know the intricacies of just one character, even for a professional. It wouldn't work (for Street Fighter).

But if EVERYONE had to juggle such a requirement, doesn't that flatten the issue to some extent? Additionally, what about the general watchability of the game—if this boosted the drama of watching the game, would that be worth the shift for players? I'm serious. Perhaps the "ban" aspect would be bad, I admit, but having to swap between a main and a secondary/tertiary, and juggling when/how an opponent does the same, just sounds so juicy to me as a viewer.

Would be convoluted and take forever too. We can barely do a single best of 3 series on time now anyway.

This, OTOH, I totally get. There'd have to be some tight timers/rules to keep time bloat in check if we added picks/bans to a massive pool of competitors. (Or save these kinds of swaps for top-32 or top-16 pools, only.)
 

TapuKImo

Member
Feb 17, 2018
49
People can use whatever they want but, at the end of the day, it's a competition with money on the line and players should try to maximize their odds of winning. If there are certain characters that are clearly superior to others, those characters increase winning odds. Character specialists are exciting and cool but, unless I just don't like watching a character (I hate Cammy-filled brackets), it doesn't bother me that these players made these decisions. This is how competitive tournaments usually go and tournaments like the one in DR would lose some of their charm if this weren't the case.

It could affect viewership, I usually don't watch high amounts of Cammy, but I don't think is a huge issue for Street Fighter.

take for example RISE | MenaRD, he never stopped believing in his character Birdie since the beginning, even when it wasn't considered to be top tier by the comunitty, yet mena managed to win 2017's cup with a mid tier at best character against some of the strongest pro players in the scene, specially evo 2017's champion tokido who uses Akuma, which is believed to be one of the top tier characters in the game.

Idk if I'm reading into this incorrectly so I just wanna throw out that Tokido is a character specialist who's character happens to be top tier. He's rocked Akuma for years, across games, and the only time he switched it up was pre-demon SFV with Ryu where he said multiple times that he would switch right back if Akuma later became available.
 
OP
OP

DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
De lo mio! :)

The Street Fighter games were always very popular back when I used to live in DR but i didn't expect there to be any big tournaments in the country, and we even have a champion? that's kinda awesome.
Klk mi hermano!

Yeah, since sfii there has always been a really active informal scene to say the least, as in a lot of warriors all over dominican republic that are not well known and you would only find out about them by word of mouth or by visiting the video games club they frequent, that has always been an awesome part of this comunitty, lots of strong players that are character specific.

And yeah RISE | MenaRD is born and raised here, he won capcom cup 2017, and he is actually the cousin of TIGER | Luiman20 which is the dalshim player in this article.

And we have at least 2 big tournaments per year, and now its only growing since mena has risen the awareness of fighting games here. Next october 13th there will be a big tournament called Genesis with 2k usd dollars as prize for first place.

Also if you are interested in the dominican scene tournaments, here is the full top 8 of fighting fest 2018 which is the tournament talked about in this article:

http://www.twitch.tv/quienonlinerd/v/316951797?sr=a&t=1s

Fun fact: I had to be the comentator for the whole top 8 by myself xD. Disfrutalo hermano!
 

ethomaz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,851
Santa Albertina
I watch fighting game tourneys as a sidelines fan—I enjoy watching high level play without studying the meta and tier analysis and whathaveyou. So I dunno if everyone who "knows better" would puke at this suggestion. But.

I would *love* to see traditional fighting game tourneys that instituted some required swaps to other characters. Example: a mix of drafting/banning before a given series, followed by a requirement to swap to another combatant after every single mini-series won. Maybe a few best-of-three series, where each ends with the winner having a required swap, and then the loser can pick whichever fighter they want in their pool as a response. Whoever wins two (or three) of these best-of-three series first moves on.
There is no enough time to master more than one or two characters.
Each player should focus in one main and at max one secondary.

That is why there is no tourneys like you said.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
But if EVERYONE had to juggle such a requirement, doesn't that flatten the issue to some extent? Additionally, what about the general watchability of the game—if this boosted the drama of watching the game, would that be worth the shift for players? I'm serious. Perhaps the "ban" aspect would be bad, I admit, but having to swap between a main and a secondary/tertiary, and juggling when/how an opponent does the same, just sounds so juicy to me as a viewer.



This, OTOH, I totally get. There'd have to be some tight timers/rules to keep time bloat in check if we added picks/bans to a massive pool of competitors. (Or save these kinds of swaps for top-32 or top-16 pools, only.)
If your goal is to watch people suck and random people win because of matchup unfamiliarity then sure, it could work.
 

Deleted member 43446

User requested account closure
Banned
May 15, 2018
748
Klk mi hermano!

Yeah, since sfii there has always been a really active informal scene to say the least, as in a lot of warriors all over dominican republic that are not well known and you would only find out about them by word of mouth or by visiting the video games club they frequent, that has always been an awesome part of this comunitty, lots of strong players that are character specific.

And yeah RISE | MenaRD is born and raised here, he won capcom cup 2017, and he is actually the cousin of TIGER | Luiman20 which is the dalshim player in this article.

And we have at least 2 big tournaments per year, and now its only growing since mena has risen the awareness of fighting games here. Next october 13th there will be a big tournament called Genesis with 2k usd dollars as prize for first place.

Also if you are interested in the dominican scene tournaments, here is the full top 8 of fighting fest 2018 which is the tournament talked about in this article:

http://www.twitch.tv/quienonlinerd/v/316951797?sr=a&t=1s

Fun fact: I had to be the comentator for the whole top 8 by myself xD. Disfrutalo hermano
!

Will do. I haven't been following/playing the fighting genre for some time now, but don't mind watching some tournaments once in a while.
 
OP
OP

DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
Idk if I'm reading into this incorrectly so I just wanna throw out that Tokido is a character specialist who's character happens to be top tier. He's rocked Akuma for years, across games, and the only time he switched it up was pre-demon SFV with Ryu where he said multiple times that he would switch right back if Akuma later became available.
I didnt mean to imply that Tokido used akuma because he was one of the strongest characters of the game, sorry if it came out as that (Spanish is my mother tongue). So what I truly mean is that Mena managed to beat one of the best players in the scene with one of the best characters of the game while using birdie witch was considered to be mid tier at best.
 

myco666

Member
Oct 26, 2017
853
Fake Europe
I watch fighting game tourneys as a sidelines fan—I enjoy watching high level play without studying the meta and tier analysis and whathaveyou. So I dunno if everyone who "knows better" would puke at this suggestion. But.

I would *love* to see traditional fighting game tourneys that instituted some required swaps to other characters. Example: a mix of drafting/banning before a given series, followed by a requirement to swap to another combatant after every single mini-series won. Maybe a few best-of-three series, where each ends with the winner having a required swap, and then the loser can pick whichever fighter they want in their pool as a response. Whoever wins two (or three) of these best-of-three series first moves on.

I don't see how this would help character variety or watchability. People would just pick top tier chars as secondary and then they would be even more represented than they already are. Also people would probably gravitate away from low tiers as they would have to dedicate time to two chars instead of perfecting one.

I didnt mean to imply that Tokido used akuma because he was one of the strongest characters of the game, sorry if it came out as that (Spanish is my mother tongue). So what I truly mean is that Mena managed to beat one of the best players in the scene with one of the best characters of the game while using birdie witch was considered to be mid tier at best.

Tbf Akuma vs Birdie is pretty much even so it is not like Mena was using a char who had an uphill battle in that MU. It is still a great feat to beat Tokido at Menas age.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,143
Peru
We need more Cody reps in this game, he's very decent :( problem is his bad match-ups are really bad.