Add to that:
- They never do crunch, as stated in their last interview with GameInformer (229 questions...)
- By small team, it is at best 20-50 employees.
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If Dreams is a financial disappointment what should Shuhei Yoshida do with Media Molecule?
- Thread starter ToddBonzalez
- Start date
- They never do crunch, as stated in their last interview with GameInformer (229 questions...)
- By small team, it is at best 20-50 employees.
This is me.
I know "what" Dreams is, but I sure as heck don't know what it is. If your not at an event and or actively seeking it out, your in the dark with Dreams more or less. I know that its another "create your own game" game but thats about it. I've seen the cute trailer with the polar bear, and I've seen it at the Sony presser where they used Dreams between trailers... thats it.
Granted I was never sold on it or interested as I'm not a fan of make your own game, games, but for a first party thing the marketing has been non-existent for someone who visits lots of gaming sites, but not seeking Dreams info.
Joe Schmo doesn't need to know anything about it until 2-3 months before release.
So far what Mm have done is talk to the groups around the world they need to reach - the LBP communities and people who will be in on the beta in a heartbeat.
When they start putting out UGC, maybe getting some celebrity levels/character designs/music all made in Dreams, coupled with heavy above the line as spend & a strong PR campaign that's when people will notice, because that's when they need people to notice.
That's when they need a clear, concise and easily communicated message, not when they're feeding forum discussions.
They show off amazing preview with amazing possibilities, but anyone that's played LBP knows that the marketplace will be hot steaming garbage.
Smart move would be to put new producers and product managers in charge to keep things focused, the end product accessible, and the game to ship in timely manner.
Media Molocule is great, but they just need more focus.
They don't have to do something more traditional like Tearaway if it's managed well.
Instead, one of the first games announced for PS4 is going to be one of its last games.
And it's not even a large project in terms of people working on it.
It's just really complex, and hard to communicate to people who haven't play it......and that's not what a studio should be doing. Especially when there's years to communicate this stuff.
I won't be surprised at all if Sony does this. Sony closed Studio Liverpool, Evolution, and Incognito. Studio Japan's output has dropped significantly over the years.
Media Molocule is great, but they just need more focus.
They don't have to do something more traditional like Tearaway if it's managed well.
Instead, one of the first games announced for PS4 is going to be one of its last games.
And it's not even a large project in terms of people working on it.
It's just really complex, and hard to communicate to people who haven't play it......and that's not what a studio should be doing. Especially when there's years to communicate this stuff.
I won't be surprised at all if Sony does this. Sony closed Studio Liverpool, Evolution, and Incognito. Studio Japan's output has dropped significantly over the years.
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I mean, that looks fantastic. But if this is a game anything like LBP, I don't think this is the level of quality that users will generate. I would gladly be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. User generated content is just lack luster.
What are you talking about? The community made better games than MM. All you had to do is find good creators, follow them and then check out the creators THEY followed. This was always the best way of finding incredible content which is clearly why MM have decided to promote creators first in Dreams. Steve Big Guns was one of the best to follow and that's why he now works for MM. At the time there was around 8 million creations (now 15 million) so of course it's difficult to find the very best. The way the system was set up made it so the silly levels like Shark Attack ended up at the top. These people would just get their friends to heart their levels which lead to a mess.
Fulen was brilliant too:
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It's a good job that 99% of the games won't be made by MM then isn't it.
I can see them making the studio use the engine to create smaller titles / experiences.
Why build this big engine otherwise?
Why build this big engine otherwise?
Man at the time frame this has been in development I can't imagine the game NOT being a financial disappointment.
This what ppl said about ff15 we don't ever know what the budget, pay, deals etc are. Ppl gotta stop looking at these games under the same lenses when trying to analyze financial success. Scope of project, dev costs, number of ppl on board, location, microtransactions, deals, length of time there's so much that varies between different studios I don't get how ppl can look at a game early and go "yup financial failure "
Well, for one, this game doesn't have microtransactions. Two, the marketing and general awareness of the game for the average consumer (think fortnite crowd) isn't anywhere it needs to be. Three, this type of game never sells absolute gangbusters.
Also, we aren't looking at this game early. The game was revealed FIVE years ago. Won't release until 2019 at the earliest. There's absolutely no way this game will be a financial darling in the eyes of Sony. Critical, maybe.
And its not like thats a big deal anyway. Sony can have a few losses under their belt without cutting studios.
Who cares if some of the stuff is 'lackluster' as you say? Make your own shit then, and don't stop until it's goddamn amazing by your standard. You aren't beholden to what others create, that's the whole point of the game. Play, Create, Share. You don't have to do all three or limit yourself to only one.
Oh please. Do you want me to prefeface all conversations on Era with "in my opinion". Thats what everyone is doing here. If you said the opposite it'd be the same thing.
Its not like I'm not excited for the game, man. But like you need to look at reality here.
Only reality I see is time and time again this community repeatedly calls for bombs and are proven wrong on numerous occasions you'd think for maybe a split second they'd wait it out
it might be because the industry is going through some shit rn like a certain games developer who just let go like 275 devs
im not "calling for bombs" dude. I didn't say "wow i hope dreams bombs" and I stated "i don't think dreams will be successful". I really really want the game to succeed. It deserves it.
Chill bruh
Mmh for sake if argument, lets say that MM did not have any treasury (which by the way is not true, MM being one of the most profitable studio of sony WWS).
Lets say they started from scratch, they had to pay 50 devs on average for 7 years.
Employee cost based on glassdoor average in london would be 3,5k per month for that sort of job, 5k when including social charges roughly.
Thats 250K per months for all people adding to this exploitation charges of let's say 50K per month (location rent if they're not owning walls, food, furniture, power, etc....)
So we end with 300k/month, so roughly 3.6 millions per year, 25M for last 7 years. Remember these numbers are based on a VERY high average of everything. We're probably more around 20M total.
If that game is sold 60 bucks and sells 500k copies, studio will already be profitable by a margin.
I think it will sell more, and MM already generated big amount of cash for sony to support them before that. If mm was still independant they would break even very shortly after game lauches.
There is no way the game is a financial disappointment by just doing some unfair math toward MM.
Without even working there we can already know what will happen.
Lets say they started from scratch, they had to pay 50 devs on average for 7 years.
Employee cost based on glassdoor average in london would be 3,5k per month for that sort of job, 5k when including social charges roughly.
Thats 250K per months for all people adding to this exploitation charges of let's say 50K per month (location rent if they're not owning walls, food, furniture, power, etc....)
So we end with 300k/month, so roughly 3.6 millions per year, 25M for last 7 years. Remember these numbers are based on a VERY high average of everything. We're probably more around 20M total.
If that game is sold 60 bucks and sells 500k copies, studio will already be profitable by a margin.
I think it will sell more, and MM already generated big amount of cash for sony to support them before that. If mm was still independant they would break even very shortly after game lauches.
There is no way the game is a financial disappointment by just doing some unfair math toward MM.
Without even working there we can already know what will happen.
Everyone could publish, so of course there was a lot of garbage on the platform. But more than enough outstanding creations buy hundreds/thousands of dedicated and very talented users.
it's also a good job that i can just hold off a few months, & then get the game cheaper, while waiting for the majority of those games to get built :) ...
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Yup. It's what I appreciate about Siny and Nintendo in the console space: they both seem more willing to fund smaller interesting titles and take some risks while relying on big brand titles to deliver the revenue and margin.
Buy 2M copies himself and turn it into a financial success.
I believe something like Dreams should definitely be included at OS level in PS5, receive constant updates and grow bigger and bigger as a platform.
And I do think they have long term plans for it anyway, so regardless of it's initial financial success i believe it could drive console sales
I believe something like Dreams should definitely be included at OS level in PS5, receive constant updates and grow bigger and bigger as a platform.
And I do think they have long term plans for it anyway, so regardless of it's initial financial success i believe it could drive console sales
They could open up commercial options.
i.e. allow you to publish standalone games from Dreams and sell them on the PS store.
This would have a few effects:
1) It would attract more 'serious' creators to the platform, people who would spend a lot more time/effort, producing higher quality content - the effort becomes justifiable if there's potential commercial reward
2) It would allow Dreams a direct way to potentially make a lot of money from even a small community of creators
There's potential downside too - like poor quality content flooding the store. Everyone thinking any little thing they make is worth selling. This could present obvious discovery/curation challenges, but they're not challenges that others don't also have to deal with.
I think MM has a 'dream' that Dreams can be a big enough community as a self-contained platform of free sharing, and that it is commercially viable for them in that guise. The 'hippy artist' dream. And maybe it can be, LBP was. But if that doesn't pan out, they could easily pivot it to be a more commercial tool. As an engine it does seem both attractive enough to creators and compelling enough in its potential output quality to support commercial projects that can be marketed independently to a wider audience of players who may not care a jot for Dreams itself. That would potentially = $$$$$.
But I think MM wants to see first how the 'artist commune' vision goes.
i.e. allow you to publish standalone games from Dreams and sell them on the PS store.
This would have a few effects:
1) It would attract more 'serious' creators to the platform, people who would spend a lot more time/effort, producing higher quality content - the effort becomes justifiable if there's potential commercial reward
2) It would allow Dreams a direct way to potentially make a lot of money from even a small community of creators
There's potential downside too - like poor quality content flooding the store. Everyone thinking any little thing they make is worth selling. This could present obvious discovery/curation challenges, but they're not challenges that others don't also have to deal with.
I think MM has a 'dream' that Dreams can be a big enough community as a self-contained platform of free sharing, and that it is commercially viable for them in that guise. The 'hippy artist' dream. And maybe it can be, LBP was. But if that doesn't pan out, they could easily pivot it to be a more commercial tool. As an engine it does seem both attractive enough to creators and compelling enough in its potential output quality to support commercial projects that can be marketed independently to a wider audience of players who may not care a jot for Dreams itself. That would potentially = $$$$$.
But I think MM wants to see first how the 'artist commune' vision goes.
Okay, what's the clear concise message? Because all I ever see from Dreams is "IT'S WHATEVER YOU WANT IT TO BE" and that's not a pitch.
confine them to work on pre-existing ip. other playstation platformers at this point
7+ years for Dreams, way too much. thy are really small tho but I mean. thats just way too long.
I mean. we're talking about a game that will be even more niche than little big planet. the barrier to entry is high this time around. skill wise. its a time investment. i dont think many want to buy it day 1. most will wait few months for all the UGC to stack
7+ years for Dreams, way too much. thy are really small tho but I mean. thats just way too long.
I mean. we're talking about a game that will be even more niche than little big planet. the barrier to entry is high this time around. skill wise. its a time investment. i dont think many want to buy it day 1. most will wait few months for all the UGC to stack
It's a game engine for gamers and non-programmers. If you want to make your own game, here's a great entry point. The end.
This is a compelling idea I think. The success of stuff like Roblox et al shows the market (70m active users on that platform). They're competing with others in this space, but the quality of their tool vs others may be a stand-out strength. They have disadvantages too, they might have to pivot aspects of their vision if they want to maximize their potential reach, but the potential audience is there, and the pitch is very simple I think.
Add a Battle Royale mode and make it free to play.
In reality, it'll sell a million within a week at retail plus another 20-30% digitally.
In reality, it'll sell a million within a week at retail plus another 20-30% digitally.
Keep at it. A game that gives you an infinite supply of games on your system is something worth pursuing.
Well fuck the internet are my reply somehow.
Short version: it's fruitless trying to define Dreams as an experience because literally most of the eventual content and experience it will offer hasn't even been created yet. It's genre defying and "what is it" is really missing the point.
As for it's success like LBP they'll be down to the community it attracts. MM produce creative concepts that push the envelope enough I doubt Sony even look at them as a normal studio. This is like having a Lynch or a Kubrick in your stable of talent. It's about the critical reception and status of letting them do what they want and getting kudos for going do.
MM don't have huge budgets, produce highly rated and genre defying content and I doubt are held to same performance metrics: and they shouldn't be.
Short version: it's fruitless trying to define Dreams as an experience because literally most of the eventual content and experience it will offer hasn't even been created yet. It's genre defying and "what is it" is really missing the point.
As for it's success like LBP they'll be down to the community it attracts. MM produce creative concepts that push the envelope enough I doubt Sony even look at them as a normal studio. This is like having a Lynch or a Kubrick in your stable of talent. It's about the critical reception and status of letting them do what they want and getting kudos for going do.
MM don't have huge budgets, produce highly rated and genre defying content and I doubt are held to same performance metrics: and they shouldn't be.
IMO, this is a terrible idea. It would completley destroy the whole idea of having assets created by other user and available for everyone (if you wish so). The point of Dreams is having a community willing to share and create together. With this approach, you are making Dreams to be just another game engine without a soul. If this project fails, at leat they tried, and then they could try such drastic measures. But I just can't see it being a positive thing if people would start approaching Dreams as a tool for making games on which you can make profit. Yes, for enabling the potential of the tools that would be the best approach, but it would serioseri undercut the game, the community and the whole ethos of Dreams. It would be the end of Dreams as a whole unified package.
Well, while I think it could be handled in better or worse ways, and wouldn't necessarily have to be a total disaster wrt 'the sharing economy' of the community, I'm indeed presenting it as a fallback option, if it can't stand on its own two feet as that 'artistic commune' type vision they're clearly going for for the moment.
If you listen to one of the latest interviews it sounds like a version of Little Big Planet will be included.
I still don't think people grasp how ambitious and groundbreaking Dreams will be. We have the possibility of commercial quality titles, of all genres, produced by the community. Everything can be shared. If someone builds a Mario like character (moves and all) this can be shared. Same goes for all assets, be it tree's, weather systems, music, you name it.
If they promote the game with streamers then it might really take off. It would all depend on how quickly people put out insane shit and how good the streamers and youtubers themselves are at making levels.
Because if it's really difficult to make something good and there are no great levels for a while then it could also easily backfire, making the game seem worse than what it will be later on. That's why early access (by promoters) could be double edged sword.
I hope they themselves will have already put up levels or even give out copies ahead of times to certain members of the LBP community.
Because if it's really difficult to make something good and there are no great levels for a while then it could also easily backfire, making the game seem worse than what it will be later on. That's why early access (by promoters) could be double edged sword.
I hope they themselves will have already put up levels or even give out copies ahead of times to certain members of the LBP community.
I don't see it being a financial failure, Media Molecule actually seems to be one of the more balanced teams in terms of project stability. They don't make blockbuster Uncharted, God of War style games that require a 'blockbuster' budget to go with it. They are one of the most creative and unique studios in the industry and were one of the centre points of the now hugely popular 'play,create, share' brand of games. Moreover, they are giving PlayStation major support for their peripherals, VR and Move especially. Not to mention once amazing creations within Dreams gain momentum and reviews are (possibly) quite positive word of mouth overtime will contribute to back catalogue sales. I also fully expect this game to make it to PS5 as well, probably within PS5's first year.