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F4r0_Atak

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,521
Home
And not 50 peoples since 7 years, they are 40 to 60 peoples working on it for three years...
Not even close to 50 even less 60. Just a reminder that Dreams never "officially" entered full-production. So it is possible that not even all of their staff are working on Dreams. Some could have been assigned to another project unannounced.

Dreams has never managed to get any hype to the point where Sony didn't even do a presentation for it at e3. But there's a lot of viral content potential in Dreams. Leaning to like 70/30 that it's a sales failure, but I think it could go either way.
People who loved LBP will most likely buy this game too, which should not frowned upon given that LBP is still making money for them. Dreams will have and be anything a player wants. If Mm assigned multiple teams to create smaller games inside Dreams, I would not worry about its commercial viability.
 

edo_kid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,095
When's the last time we had this thread actually? Feels like everytime Dreams gets big spotlight somebody makes this thread. Think it was the tga trailer and psx that caused the first one

Yep everytime Dreams gets some big spotlight this thread pops up, around tga definitely had one after that cool trailer.
 

GodofWine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,775
They'll be profitable post Dream..because they are profitable pre-Dreams, and I assume based on nothing, that they are also some sort of 'idea lab' for Sony studios. Dreams as a tool, could lead to profitable ventures beyond Mm.
 

Renfran

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 28, 2018
3,325
Yep everytime Dreams gets some big spotlight this thread pops up, around tga definitely had one after that cool trailer.

More like every time a big Sony 1st Party game is revealed or being discussed threads like this pop up. Which then proceed to vanish after the review and sales thread drops for obvious reasons. Always the same every time. Always the same outcome every time too.
 

dabri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,728
"Not been overly successful"......apart from Little Big Planet selling over 8m copies, 60m pieces of DLC, and at its peak, 1.3m active players. Not to mention MM themselves being profitable for the last decade. On course to ship a title to PS4 with an install base heading for 100m. A title that could well be PlayStation's highest rated exclusives this gen.

I suppose it's only apt you signed off like so many in this thread with essentially, "Good luck MM, you'll need it, when you all get sacked".

One of the most embarrassing threads since this site started. Ignorance is being encouraged when we should all be celebrating and looking forward to what could be a landmark title.
That figure is across all of the LBP games released.
LBP, LBP PSP, LBP 2, and LBP 3.
That's over 10 years and multiple titles. LBP 3 sold under 1/3rd the copies as the first game. The hand held versions did way worst.
So yes, I stand by my statement that MM hasn't released anything that has been successful financially in 10 years.
LBP also had some core gameplay that people could go into and play. Dreams hasn't shown anything like that. Dreams looks to be all creation. I'm sure there will be some micro games that it ships with to demonstrate what can be done with the tools, but everything we've seen has varied so drastically.
I have no doubt the game will review well. I have no doubt because MM are a very talented group of people. But that doesn't translate to financially successful.
The purpose of the thread was to ask people what they thought would happen to MM if Dreams fails. I stated what I thought would happen based off my view of their success. You disagree and that is fine. I actually hope Dreams is successful and we don't have to worry about what will happen. You seem convinced it will be.

Edit: I should have stated that I know MM didn't make LBP3. I was trying to establish the decline in the IP through sales over the years.
 
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EdgeXL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,789
California
I would hope that Media Molecule has a long and secure future. I do not like most of Sony's games but I do love what MM creates. I would be very sad if they were in danger of closure.
 

TheLoCoRaven

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
379
I think they could make awesome PSVR platformer games like Astro Bot Rescue Mission. I could see them thriving in VR.
 

TriniTrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
496
Denver, CO
Does anyone think this game will be successful? I am super interested in it but it seems so niche that i'm not sure how much money they will make off of it.
 

JamboGT

Vehicle Handling Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,454
That figure is across all of the LBP games released.
LBP, LBP PSP, LBP 2, and LBP 3.
That's over 10 years and multiple titles. LBP 3 sold under 1/3rd the copies as the first game. The hand held versions did way worst.
So yes, I stand by my statement that MM hasn't released anything that has been successful financially in 10 years.
LBP also had some core gameplay that people could go into and play. Dreams hasn't shown anything like that. Dreams looks to be all creation. I'm sure there will be some micro games that it ships with to demonstrate what can be done with the tools, but everything we've seen has varied so drastically.
I have no doubt the game will review well. I have no doubt because MM are a very talented group of people. But that doesn't translate to financially successful.
The purpose of the thread was to ask people what they thought would happen to MM if Dreams fails. I stated what I thought would happen based off my view of their success. You disagree and that is fine. I actually hope Dreams is successful and we don't have to worry about what will happen. You seem convinced it will be.

LBP 3 was by Sumo Digital, LBP Vita was Double Eleven.

Regardless, threads like this are strange to me, do we not need to wait for games to come out, and find out how they are before wondering what will happen if it is unsuccessful?
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,440
That figure is across all of the LBP games released.
LBP, LBP PSP, LBP 2, and LBP 3.
That's over 10 years and multiple titles. LBP 3 sold under 1/3rd the copies as the first game. The hand held versions did way worst.
So yes, I stand by my statement that MM hasn't released anything that has been successful financially in 10 years.
8.5 million as of 2012 which is two years before LBP3 released and doesn't include LBP Vita (LBP3 was also made by Sumo Digital, not Media Molecule). And that's just unit numbers, no mention of the mountains of money made from content packs.
 

MZZ

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,335
Definitely wont sack them. They are a fairly unique studio and is also a favorite to several executives for their unique creativity.
 

HighJump

Member
Oct 27, 2017
443
Alabama
This is a small studio. There is no downsizing step and Dreams would be their first major screw up. Tearaway was a Vita game and then a late port to PS4. Should be looked over.

Sony will probably just tighten the reigns a bit and give them funding for whatever project they want to move onto next. I'm thinking MM plays it safe and chooses a more traditional Mascot Platformer. Probably 3D as that's the direction they've been leaning (LBP>Tearaway>Dreams).
 
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Apex88

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,428
That figure is across all of the LBP games released.
LBP, LBP PSP, LBP 2, and LBP 3.
That's over 10 years and multiple titles. LBP 3 sold under 1/3rd the copies as the first game. The hand held versions did way worst.
So yes, I stand by my statement that MM hasn't released anything that has been successful financially in 10 years.
LBP also had some core gameplay that people could go into and play. Dreams hasn't shown anything like that. Dreams looks to be all creation. I'm sure there will be some micro games that it ships with to demonstrate what can be done with the tools, but everything we've seen has varied so drastically.
I have no doubt the game will review well. I have no doubt because MM are a very talented group of people. But that doesn't translate to financially successful.
The purpose of the thread was to ask people what they thought would happen to MM if Dreams fails. I stated what I thought would happen based off my view of their success. You disagree and that is fine. I actually hope Dreams is successful and we don't have to worry about what will happen. You seem convinced it will be.
MM didn't develop Little Big Planet 3.

MM has been profitable throughout Dreams' development.

MM and Sony are about to cash in with a userbase approaching 100m. And then Dreams will have a second boost when it transitions over to PS5. I struggle to see any scenario where this thing doesn't sell millions of copies and tens of millions in DLC. The Beta later this year (with creations carried over to the full release) will deliver more content and examples of Dreams' potential than we could ever imagine.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,634
Develop every future first party game in Dreams to return on investment.

It would be "dream" marketing if Sony gets their studios and other third party devs to make short games and then give them as free to do marketing. Or even sell as DLC expansion packs where you can use the assets in each game to make your own game.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I think the surprising bankruptcy of Telltale has kinda caused everyone to re-assess their assumptions about studios with niche games that were just presumed to be doing well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
56,807
That figure is across all of the LBP games released.
LBP, LBP PSP, LBP 2, and LBP 3.
That's over 10 years and multiple titles. LBP 3 sold under 1/3rd the copies as the first game. The hand held versions did way worst.
So yes, I stand by my statement that MM hasn't released anything that has been successful financially in 10 years.
LBP also had some core gameplay that people could go into and play. Dreams hasn't shown anything like that. Dreams looks to be all creation. I'm sure there will be some micro games that it ships with to demonstrate what can be done with the tools, but everything we've seen has varied so drastically.
I have no doubt the game will review well. I have no doubt because MM are a very talented group of people. But that doesn't translate to financially successful.
The purpose of the thread was to ask people what they thought would happen to MM if Dreams fails. I stated what I thought would happen based off my view of their success. You disagree and that is fine. I actually hope Dreams is successful and we don't have to worry about what will happen. You seem convinced it will be.
Wtf do y'all live in ya own lil world or what! The facts and information are right there! How is this not straight trolling at this point
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...the-mascot-playstation-has-been-searching-for
 

TheRulingRing

Banned
Apr 6, 2018
5,713
eiBV33B.png
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They will be Ok, without games and still making profits

Source: https://document-api-images-prod.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/docs/h3sFmGQwJegbeGXkoyodCdw4J1zX9EPwfjOMAQG3Z7c/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3L62Q6H5Z/20181003/eu-west-1/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20181003T152149Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=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&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=17ea88edc4c570a4e7dbe0f1950992c530d6dd2cbd5b057fa67ebdee04c0b2b2

I doubt their game/software sales are currently high enough to be making 16 million revenue.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a large part of that revenue consists of money "paid" to them by Sony (even though they're technically already owned by Sony) for their work. The statement even mentions invoicing other group companies for the services, and counting this as revenue. If this is indeed the case, they would then be making a loss for Sony for the year. Maybe someone actually involved in financial filings can clarify.

I don't expect them to get shut down anyway, though.
 

HebrewHammer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,524
Chicago
If Dreams and Days Gone fall short critically and commercially, I think MM and Bend are at a high risk of closure in 2019.

Granted, it's a hunch.
 

butman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,024
I think they know that it will be the AAA exclusive that will sell the less.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,620
Watertown, NY
Indeed: Zipper, Sony Liverpool, Incognito, Guerilla Cambridge, Evolution, and BigBig all survived difficult times.

Anyway, Mm is a small studio so I don't expect Dreams to need to sell gangbusters to keep them afloat. Dreams is also the type of game/app that is going to require a metric ton of post launch support, so they're going to need to be around for that.

Zipper, Liverpool, Evolution failed to make any profit from multiple projects, and were able to make what ever they wanted. There's only so much you can do to make a studio profitable. Part of that was on Sony in how they managed them, but also they gave creative freedom and big money to those studios to make what they wanted.

MM is small, and had been profitable from their previous games minus teraway.
 
OP
OP
ToddBonzalez

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Why are y'all so bloodthirsty for people to lose their jobs
Not bloodthirsty at all. I hope the game is a success, and if worst comes to worst and it does not meet expectations, I'd hope Sony would avoid layoffs/closure at all costs.To answer my own question stated in the OP, I believe that MM is too talented and unique a team to break up, so I'd hope they'd be given the opportunity to continue to support Dreams and make new games w/o creative restraint. Their presence in WWS adds to the health of the PlayStation platform.

This is a board where we can discuss the business of the games industry. I think discussing the hypothetical outcomes of a game's sales is an appropriate topic.
 

Apex88

Member
Jan 15, 2018
1,428
We are at that stage in a generation where "Sony's luck must end" so all the crazies come out. When even God of War gets pummelled for the lack of a jump button and Spider-Man devs recieve threats over a puddle. There's not much hope for MM and Bend to get the benefit of the doubt.

As ever. The devs will have the last laugh.
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
It's hard for me to imagine Sony allowing Media Molecule to work on Dreams for so many years without any consequences if the game doesn't sell well.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,861
"Where are we going Papa Yoshida? Some where fun?"


"You'll See."


*EA passes by*


EA: "oh? Yoshida-san! taking your kid "out" I see! ;)
Dont worry little boy, you'll have plenty of friends where youre going. I made sure of it." :)
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,381
UK
Title says it all. MM is one of the oddest beasts in the games industry. Certainly they're very good at what they do, but what they do doesn't always have mass market appeal. I think Dreams will be well-received critically, but I can't deny that it feels like a niche, difficult-to-market product.

I'm not sure it will recoup the costs of it's 7+ year development. If this situation comes to pass (i.e. good reviews and poor sales), what do you think SIE should do with Media Molecule? While Little Big Planet was a success in all regards, the Tearaway games didn't do particularly well from a commercial standpoint, and Dreams has had quite a protracted dev cycle at this point.

-Do you let MM keep on keepin' on, developing their acclaimed, yet niche brand of games?
-Do you strongly encourage MM to abandon the build/create/share genre and develop something more conventional that fits their skill set (maybe a stylized action-adventure or platformer)?
-Do you dissolve the studio?

Curoius what era thinks.
Are you a shareholder?
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
They won't close MM. Sony needs some niche developers creating games outside of the box. What we need is a Puppeteer 2 and other titles not FPS or Open World made by a small first party team with low budgets.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,199
South Central Los Angeles
MM is a studio with Minecraft and Fortnite potential.

Do I think Dreams will be a Minecraft or Fortnite sensation? No, not really (I don't expect it to bomb either tho).

But their creation tools have too much upside to just shut them down, even if Dreams doesn't do well. You gotta let them incubate just like you gotta let VR incubate.
 

Yurinka

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,457
All Media Molecule games have been profitable, and their LBP titles have been a huge success in sales and as GaaS with years and years of paid DLC content. It's something rare in the gaming industry.

I don't understand how people like the OP can consider Dreams may be "a financial dissapointment" or even consider MM closure. You guy don't have any fucking idea what are you talking about, this "small" studio is still making profit even with no recent release.

Dreams seems to be a LBP on steriods, bigger and better, with more potential to create innovative, cool and surprising stuff, with more intuitive and simple creation tools. It's going to be another hit like LBP. You are going to eat crow.
 
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LifeLine

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
I doubt their game/software sales are currently high enough to be making 16 million revenue.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a large part of that revenue consists of money "paid" to them by Sony (even though they're technically already owned by Sony) for their work. The statement even mentions invoicing other group companies for the services, and counting this as revenue. If this is indeed the case, they would then be making a loss for Sony for the year. Maybe someone actually involved in financial filings can clarify.

I don't expect them to get shut down anyway, though.


Pretty sure they're counting the money Sony pays them as profit in there. Although MM might be pulling in money, Sony isn't making any back.
 

Deleted member 5159

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,704
this negative whataboutism thread is pretty shameful and gross to be honest and shouldnt be allowed imo. Let's wait calmly, hope for the best and then discuss, but as a lot of people said, this is supposed to be a continuous service, it might not take out in the first month and then after a while it goes viral, let's chill.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,512
"What should this company do to punish a studio if their game doesn't do well" is a weird ass thread idea.

Cause like... nothing, I hope? Dreams looks amazing and like it could be an excellent thing for people who wouldn't otherwise make games. I really want to see what comes out of it. If it doesn't sell, I... want Media Molecule to make whatever the next thing they make is?

Why would you want them to do anything?