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" Dear dads: Your daughters told me about their assaults. This is why they never told you"
- Thread starter Chrome Hyena
- Start date
There wasn't much in the article that I already didn't know and I'm not as naive as the father's mentioned or men in general. I'm just saying, not all violent responses to rapists are macho theater.
There's not a taboo topic in my family and we plan on telling the kids everything when the time comes. They'll be way ahead of things compared to my generation.
Ok gotcha. I agree with how constantly spouting is counterproductive. In the past, even though I would have probably responded violently to a relative being harmed, I've never communicated those feelings. I just spoke to them about safety and sexual violence once they started hanging out and partying.
All the men ive spoken to about my experiences say among the same things, telling me they want me to turning them in, trying to coerce a name out of me, a face. Saying some scary things. Reacting in a way thats just not helpful for my recovery. They take this caregiving role. I know they care.... i appreciate it. But its not their battle and i want to heal
i would dread having this conversation with my father. But with my mother i can speak much more freely.
i would dread having this conversation with my father. But with my mother i can speak much more freely.
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I read the article and agree with what is said, but I think it is should be stated that people should not conflate feeling anger and actually going out and committing a violent act (not saying everyone here does, but that does seem to be popping up a little). As others have said, feeling that anger or violent urge is natural, but expressing it to others (children and/or victims of assault/harrassment) is where one should really exercise control. I have felt this kind of emotion before but I didn't express it to the person who confided in me, nor did I act irrationally and go out and beat the shit out of someone.
Question is - do their kids feel safer when they say it?
Genuinely. I'd imagine that the negative consequences come about when the situation actually happens.
It makes sense intuitively - that you're protected from all the evils of the world.
But I wouldn't personally know.
It can be, if you have developed the tools to deal with emotional scenarios in a thoughtful manner.
Do you think that is commonplace in our society? Do you think self-reflection and empathizing with the person you care about are actually skills developed today?
Bears have brains too. They aren't self aware but they're behaving according to the best of their ability.
I'm not condoning the behavior, but when 95% of all men are never given the tools to behave any differently there should be no surprise that this continues to be the response. It's depressing and the best response we have is spreading awareness. Even then it'll fail most of the time because people are immediately dismissive of everything that doesn't fit their world view.
We have reached a dangerous climax of post-modernism and anti-intellectualism. I don't know the way out of it, but it isn't by saying "just don't". In fact, I'd argue that this embodies the second level issue with men dialoguing with women - the need to fix everything and believing that we should be able to do so. A woman can't share her experiences and challenges with a man close to her without generally being told how to solve it, as though every challenge in her life was fixable. It doesn't make the situation better to apply that same thinking to the stunted emotional reasoning skills of men, it just makes it more pervasive.
+1
Thought about posting something similar in response to some people saying that it's jusr about stupid honor or ego. Don't know if these posters have kids because it's not easy to understand if you don't have them. Hearing or seeing how someone hurt or had hurt your (little) kid will easily bring hellfire to your blood. In the end, i would probably don't go out and try to kill someone who did something to my kids but you can be sure that emotions would overwhelm me.
The wives heard the threat too.
Now they're in the position of "if I tell my husband something happened to me, will he start threatening violence, or even resort to violence, even when I don't want him to? Next time something happens to his daughter will he go through with it and end up in jail?"
Which is why I said I feel like I understand why the wives thought it was stupid.
Are you ok with teaching your child that you're always going to disrespect their wishes and make their lives worse by selfishly being violent instead of supporting them through their trauma? Is that not a bad lesson, when you could be teaching them that you'll be there for them and will them dictate how things proceed, giving them more control of the situation?
Your vengeance shouldn't come before supporting them. Hell, you can't really even have "vengeance" to begin with. They were the ones hurt directly, not you.
This right here is why neither my sister or I (male) came out to our dad until 15 years later (we were 8/9 at the time). We feared more what he would do to get revenge than we did what our cousin would do. When we told him he made it clear he would have killed him had we told him as things were happening. This was while our mom was fighting cancer and the only one who could really provide for us was our dad. What would have actually happened had we told him all those years ago? Would he really have raced off to feel like a hero, leaving us with nothing? That thought scared us so much that we never said a word, which while my sister handled things far better than I did, holding that in led to me feeling like I was worthless for a good half of my life.
Generally by the time a person is likely to be targeted the fallibility of their parents is well known to them, so it likely instills no feeling of safety, simply an added layer of repercussions from coming forward.
Alternatively, for those like myself abused at a young age, you instead grow up knowing that no one else can truly protect you from the evils of the world and that you're on your own no matter what someone else might say, so again, those continued offerings of undying defense ring incredibly hollow.
In short, it is only a negative consequence. In fact, we'd likely see a far better outcome if we spoke to our children with honesty from an earlier age. If they're more cognizant that there are bad people out there and try as you might the world is a dangerous place they might grow up a bit more cynical, but that cynicism might be a useful tool in protecting themselves and others from predators. It would at the very least hopefully give them someone to talk to about it. A lot of abuse isn't a one time thing, it is a series of progressive trespasses against someone where if the target had support to speak out at step one or two to discuss what is and is not acceptable it could avoid a lot more pain down the road.
I know in my situation I constantly think about what is "too young" to have a conversation about my wife and I's experiences with abuse with our daughter. I worry about the emotional weight it would put on her and also about having the conversation too late. It feels like a no-win situation where we will eventually need to make some hard choices.
I think you misread the thread then. As I recall the guy who threatened violence was a widow. Unless he went home and told his daughter about it he wasn't bringing any of that back to his family.
I wrote a big thing and just deleted it all.
This is all very frustrating.
This ignores the reality of how we interact. To put this another way we don't give women explicit permission to touch us and that definitely is a tactic many women use to express increasing interest.
On one hand people do need to realize that no means no. On the other many people do have a problem expressing their boundaries so encouraging explicit permission seems like the best way to resolve this.
Are you a guy over the age 25 because it would be pretty bad if you really don't get it why we lean towards aggressive behavior like this. In this case it's not about showing power but protecting what we value. It's also based on instincts and testosterone that we assume this is an acceptable course of action.
And your child will suffer in silence because they know this. But go off, I guess.
Reminds me about the poster here who's friend threatened someone else's dad and got applause. Also, if you want to know what toxic masculinity is, it's being violently protective.
Also, if it's unclear to anyone assault can be complicated. You have relationships with people, they may do bad things but you may know other aspects of them. They can be friends, family, lovers etc. If your first reaction is to go after them, then you are a destructive fool. LISTEN to the victims, do not presume you know how to solve the problem.
Also, if it's unclear to anyone assault can be complicated. You have relationships with people, they may do bad things but you may know other aspects of them. They can be friends, family, lovers etc. If your first reaction is to go after them, then you are a destructive fool. LISTEN to the victims, do not presume you know how to solve the problem.
You should care, you'll never see your child again so what's the point?
Oh true, I prolly didn't read that far.
Still I understand why the wives would be mad if OP was in agreement with the action.
I have a young daughter. I don't know what I would do if something ever happened to her. I do know what I would do to prevent something from ever happening to her so perhaps that's my answer.
I don't think telling her the truth would be the best decision in any case.
I don't think telling her the truth would be the best decision in any case.
And absolutely nothing is solved. Your child was still abused. And now they don't have a father around them for years. AAAND, you might get to suffer some fantastic abuse while in prison. Awesome.
THAT'S if things go the way you just said, which they probably wouldn't. Murphy's Law would kick in. YOU would get killed, your child's attacker wouldn't suffer any real consequences due to self-defense of some guy seeking vengeance, and now, your child not only suffered assault, but also the death of their father. Growing up without a father sucks. Growing up without a father sucks more when the child believes that it is their fault that their father is dead.
I have a boy with autism, and I have dealt with both adults and children who have treated him cruelly. You want to go over and body slam an adult motherfucker yelling at a 7 year old, but that doesn't solve anything. He makes me question my ability to be a good dad everyday. I seriously think I wouldn't be able to be a father of a girl. The knowledge that you can't always protect her, plus raging out on her attacker only makes her fearful for / of you? Yeah. It's mentally draining.
It does suck but that's the thing. The only thing that doesn't in these situations is that if they tell you, they likely feel comfortable telling you and view you as a source that can somewhat help them hopefully cope. Been put it this position more than once and yeah it's infuriating that you're powerless to make it better with a quick fix. Unfortunately, like many things in our lives the solution is never as simple as smash bad thing and everything is instantly better but rather a shit load of work.
OP, I think it's great that you had this realization. I hope this inspires you (if you haven't already), to talk to your daughter about this subject.
I really didn't tell my parents when awful things happened to me, but I was afraid to. In retrospect, I probably should have. If only just to have someone to talk to about it.
But my father overreacting could have been a very real problem too. Hm :/
I really didn't tell my parents when awful things happened to me, but I was afraid to. In retrospect, I probably should have. If only just to have someone to talk to about it.
But my father overreacting could have been a very real problem too. Hm :/
This is sure something I hadn't thought about. My girl's just 2.5 so I think I can probably handle this in a better way now when she gets older. Tell her something like, if you're ever in a situation like this I'll be there to give you whatever you need. If it's to destroy this guy, it'll be that. If you just want me to be there for you, it'll be that. Don't ever feel like you can't share with me, I'm here to give you what you say you need, not what I think you might need.
Or I dunno, somethin. Food for thought, thanks OP.
Or I dunno, somethin. Food for thought, thanks OP.
It's really hard to be a father behind bars. Its better for you to be there for your child. Its certainly not good for you to stack more shit on top of your child after what they've gone through either. This isnt about you at the end of the day.
I think we agree in many ways, mainly that this isn't acceptable behavior, and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response. You make a lot of good points.
However, what you describe as developed skills and tools, I view as simple common sense.
Like, don't frighten your children by explaining to them that you are capable of murder and will avenge them if anything happens to them. Instead, make them feel safe and able to come to you. It's not like I've studied this or have honed my empathetic skills, it just makes sense. It is very obviously the right thing to do.
And if people are going to reject the glaringly better option, I am not going to mince words when describing what I think of their intellectual capacity to raise their kids.
No we don't. If you do then there's something wrong with you. Seriously, what the fuck?
Without a doubt this is very difficult for fathers to deal with, especially when a primal parent rage takes over. Good on the people in this thread who read the article and makes them rethink about their approach. I think the people in this thread who still go "I don't care, rage is rage, I need my vengeance" seriously need to have that re-think as well. It's ultimately not about you. As hard as that sounds.
You aren't protected from the evils of the world when you hear that.
You're witnessing one of those evils manifesting in someone you're supposed to trust. Isn't there something counter-intuitive to knowing that someone loving you means they'd commit heinous acts of violence for you? That makes love sound broken, bitter, and wrong.
I have a 4 year old girl and worry about this stuff all of the time. Not so much just the worst case scenarios, but just the realities of being a woman in this world. Even if they aren't part of the 1/3 (or whatever the ratio was) that will experience sexual assault at some point in their lives, there is so much shit on a microaggression level to deal with. As a parent, you can try your best to prepare your kids for life and independence, but most of it is ultimately out of your hands. Even if you still feel responsible.
Anyhow, this was a good article. I never do the "If anyone touches you, I will kill them" thing, but if something ever happens, hopefully my daughter feels comfortable enough to seek support in me, and hopefully I can control myself enough to give it. It's fine to feel emotions of hurt and rage, but you have to dump your own issues outwards to less affected parties who can support you, and not inwards towards those most affected and in need of support. Often that can be hard though.
Anyhow, this was a good article. I never do the "If anyone touches you, I will kill them" thing, but if something ever happens, hopefully my daughter feels comfortable enough to seek support in me, and hopefully I can control myself enough to give it. It's fine to feel emotions of hurt and rage, but you have to dump your own issues outwards to less affected parties who can support you, and not inwards towards those most affected and in need of support. Often that can be hard though.
Two days after my daughter was born (my first, and only, child), my father-in-law (who I've always had a great relationship with) visits us in the hospital. He pulls me aside and gives me the whole, "your life will never be the same, your world will revolve around her, etc" speech that we all know and can commiserate with.
Out of nowhere, he gets deadass serious, looks me in the eyes and says, "Don't you just feel like you'd do anything to protect her? Like, that you'd even KILL any one that tried to hurt her?"
I kind of laughed it off, and was like, "Sure, I'd do anything for her."
In my head tho, I'm like, "WTF was that just now???"
Like, he sounded less like a protective father, and more like a guy who was just itching for some motherfucker to give him a reason. That's not just toxic masculinity, it's morbid masculinity. It's not a competition, you're not a better dad because of your proclamations that you'd kill for your kids. Take it down a notch.
This article just confirms what I was already thinking at that time. That your kids aren't going to come to you with their problems if you've told them that you'd escalate the situation to 11 like that. My dad was like that. Fucking BE REASONABLE.
Out of nowhere, he gets deadass serious, looks me in the eyes and says, "Don't you just feel like you'd do anything to protect her? Like, that you'd even KILL any one that tried to hurt her?"
I kind of laughed it off, and was like, "Sure, I'd do anything for her."
In my head tho, I'm like, "WTF was that just now???"
Like, he sounded less like a protective father, and more like a guy who was just itching for some motherfucker to give him a reason. That's not just toxic masculinity, it's morbid masculinity. It's not a competition, you're not a better dad because of your proclamations that you'd kill for your kids. Take it down a notch.
This article just confirms what I was already thinking at that time. That your kids aren't going to come to you with their problems if you've told them that you'd escalate the situation to 11 like that. My dad was like that. Fucking BE REASONABLE.
Anger is normal. The degree is learned. But scaring your loved ones by expressing the desire to kill anyone who hurts them? That's ego. All ego. It's about proving to themselves and to others that they're big, strong, and tough enough to do whatever it takes to achieve vengeance. It's never about reassuring the victim, it's about affirming the speaker's masculine dominance. It's a cultural byproduct of a patriarchal society.
Your view highlights what I'm saying here though.
Most people, ultimately, either run to or away from how their parents raised them. What you see as common sense is likely something you were instilled within in that same context.
A person raised in a culture of violent bravado that is often mistaken by men as being "a real man" is, unless they've seen the negative ramifications of it first hand, unlikely to reject those same attitudes as they get older.
Also you say that people reject the glaringly better option, but in order for empathy and support to be the glaringly better option most people would need experiential evidence to convince them of this.
You didn't actively develop the world view you have, and by proxy most people didn't actively develop theirs. Most people simply aren't that into self actualization.
As someone who has had to basically relearn my emotional responses from where I used to actively enjoy violence I can say with complete certainty that it is not easy. Growing up in a culture of condoned violence is a powerful form of indoctrination, just like growing up in a culture of condoned sexual exploitation and abuse. It is so powerful that people quickly become unaware of it and, unless they personally have been meaningfully scarred by it, typically defensive of it.
I didn't tell my parents about anything I've experienced because they're just going to say "it was your fault" and then also be mad at me.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
This relates to something on late night NPR last night - a guy who said he had two daughters and 'was more liberal than the hosts' was upset about the sexual assault allegations against kavanaugh coming up now. He said he hated him politically but he didn't think the allegations were worth pursuing and the managed to completely destroy everything he had said by then going 'they had plenty of time to report this, so why now?'.
I forget the two host's names (whatever the male and female hosted political NPR show that's usually on in the evenings), but the female host IMMEDIATELY stopped him and said something along the lines of "I wish you hadn't gone there" and did the NPR equivalent of ripping him a new one. But the guy didn't seem to get it, he was convinced that any woman sexually abused at any age would come forward basically immediately and that there was no reason for them to ever hide it. So that really highlighted how clueless/blind massive swathes of people are to the issue.
I forget the two host's names (whatever the male and female hosted political NPR show that's usually on in the evenings), but the female host IMMEDIATELY stopped him and said something along the lines of "I wish you hadn't gone there" and did the NPR equivalent of ripping him a new one. But the guy didn't seem to get it, he was convinced that any woman sexually abused at any age would come forward basically immediately and that there was no reason for them to ever hide it. So that really highlighted how clueless/blind massive swathes of people are to the issue.
It's not that men cognizantly think "I will ignore the needs of the victims and enact a revenge plan to sate my anger". Is the end result the same? Yes it is. I'm not here to actually argue against any of this. I agree. Just noting that the reason this is a thing is because people have a hard time thinking logically in fits of extreme emotional responses or when discussing topics that elicit such responses.
Ideally, cool heads would prevail but then again, that applies to just about everything and we know it's a pipe dream.
There's a difference between "making sure your child knows you will support them" and "putting the burden of managing your own violent tendencies on your child's shoulders".
Traditional western fatherhood confuses the two often.
I don't want to invalidate these feelings but men should consider the ramifications of what they say beyond how "right" it feels to them at that very moment.
Traditional western fatherhood confuses the two often.
I don't want to invalidate these feelings but men should consider the ramifications of what they say beyond how "right" it feels to them at that very moment.
I'm trying to figure out how to put this sussinctly, but basically the cultural attitudes and norms that make men think they can sexually harrass and assault women are the same cultural attitudes and norms that make men think they can beat and kill men who sexually harrass and assult women.
If you want to beat a dude up, you're not a good guy. You've been poisoned by the same line of thinking a frat-boy butt grabber is. When people talk about the patriarchy or toxic masculinity, they mean all of it. Using power and violence to achieve results, fighting battles for other people based on what you perceive the best solution to crimes permitted on others to be, circumventing the wishes of victims or the abilities of powers (police, courts, employers etc.) other than yours to reach a resolution.
If you want to beat a dude up, you're not a good guy. You've been poisoned by the same line of thinking a frat-boy butt grabber is. When people talk about the patriarchy or toxic masculinity, they mean all of it. Using power and violence to achieve results, fighting battles for other people based on what you perceive the best solution to crimes permitted on others to be, circumventing the wishes of victims or the abilities of powers (police, courts, employers etc.) other than yours to reach a resolution.
I would say that if you dont at least WANT to beat the dude up, then you're not a good guy. Its such a natural feeling to want to harm someone who caused harm to someone you love. Its not the same as thinking its OK to sexually harass or assault someone whatsofuckingever. Not only men feel this way. Jesus.
Dude stop. It's a common sentiment 'giving chase'. 'Hunters' and other common analogous imagery. Not saying that all men are rapists, but we're taught as soon as we begin dating that it's all about the chase and such. That's what I'm saying.
I think he meant it's more so that our first instinct is to go "I want to kick this guy's ass," because for guys it's how we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be all powerful shitkickers who deal with our problems with a good ol' round of fisticuffs.
Very good thread and article in the OP.
My dad is such a sweetheart, wouldn't hurt a fly. My mom, on the other hand... If I had told her about the abuses I got after school, she would've gone ape-shit. Though I'm not sure that's why I didn't tell them, it was more a mixture of "I brought it upon myself" kinda shame and "I guess it's normal to be bullied".
I can't even imagine the thought of having kids go through this. I haven't thought about it until now, really.
My dad is such a sweetheart, wouldn't hurt a fly. My mom, on the other hand... If I had told her about the abuses I got after school, she would've gone ape-shit. Though I'm not sure that's why I didn't tell them, it was more a mixture of "I brought it upon myself" kinda shame and "I guess it's normal to be bullied".
I can't even imagine the thought of having kids go through this. I haven't thought about it until now, really.
I dont necessarily agree. I think it falls under a protective instinct kind of thing, not a toxic masculinity kind of thing. I know a few moms that would fuck someone up if you ever hurt their child.
I started crying this morning when I read this. I understand why the writer focused on dads but I think it's actually a bit simplistic to talk only about dads. Moms are also often unaware and parents of both genders can be unknowingly cruel and completely oblivious about these things.
I hid the things that happened to me (small things like being catcalled regularly starting from age 12, medium things like sexual harassment from high school teachers, big things like rape and having a man suffocating me with a pillow because I was screaming "no" too loudly). My parents have no idea. They're old-fashioned (read: sexist) and very protective. My mother told me directly that if I was raped, it would be my fault. I even argued this point with her but she just got angry with me. My dad never spoke about stuff like this. It would have broken my parents' hearts to know any of what happened to me. I didn't tell them for a number of reasons: I didn't want to be blamed and punished, I didn't want to hurt my parents (because they love me), and I didn't think there was anything that they could or would do that would have made the situation better. I was afraid of them "overreacting" and I was afraid of them having no real external reaction at all. So what good could come from inviting blame and causing pain? And besides, I couldn't even anticipate what actions they'd take.
Also, it's a goddamn laundry list of shitty sex- and gender-related abuse. If they didn't think it was my fault for the first few, they would surely conclude it was my fault by the end. The most horrifying thing about #metoo for me is realizing how much crap I'd actually forgotten or previously written off as "well, duh, boys will be boys and men will be boys."
So. Burdening my parents and make them feel bad, being made to feel worse myself, and giving up the little control I had over the situation(s)... it was such an easy decision. And the reason I started crying was because I hadn't realized how easy the decision had been. And no, I'm not going to tell them now. 15-20 years on, I'm staying quiet unless they directly ask me and only if I think they'll be supportive about it. This means respecting my wishes for what I want to share, what I want them to do, and not being raging asshats about it. But I don't see any of that happening. And that's fine. They can't make it better and I'm not interested in trying to fix their shitty opinions by becoming an emotional prop in a debate that I couldn't win intellectually with them.
To answer OP's question: I don't think this will be a turning point. Or at least, I don't think we'll see a significant change soon. Just like the 1980s/90s backlash to 1970s feminism, I think we'll see a backlash to all this too. (I think the Republican stubbornness over Kavanaugh's nomination *is* backlash.) 3 steps forward, 2.95 steps back. But the 0.05 steps will be meaningful and it will make a difference in some ways. Maybe there will be more parents who learn how to make their children feel safe in talking to them. Maybe more people won't laugh at bad rape jokes that punch down at victims. Maybe more people will learn what affirmative consent is. It's not enough but it's not nothing.
I hid the things that happened to me (small things like being catcalled regularly starting from age 12, medium things like sexual harassment from high school teachers, big things like rape and having a man suffocating me with a pillow because I was screaming "no" too loudly). My parents have no idea. They're old-fashioned (read: sexist) and very protective. My mother told me directly that if I was raped, it would be my fault. I even argued this point with her but she just got angry with me. My dad never spoke about stuff like this. It would have broken my parents' hearts to know any of what happened to me. I didn't tell them for a number of reasons: I didn't want to be blamed and punished, I didn't want to hurt my parents (because they love me), and I didn't think there was anything that they could or would do that would have made the situation better. I was afraid of them "overreacting" and I was afraid of them having no real external reaction at all. So what good could come from inviting blame and causing pain? And besides, I couldn't even anticipate what actions they'd take.
Also, it's a goddamn laundry list of shitty sex- and gender-related abuse. If they didn't think it was my fault for the first few, they would surely conclude it was my fault by the end. The most horrifying thing about #metoo for me is realizing how much crap I'd actually forgotten or previously written off as "well, duh, boys will be boys and men will be boys."
So. Burdening my parents and make them feel bad, being made to feel worse myself, and giving up the little control I had over the situation(s)... it was such an easy decision. And the reason I started crying was because I hadn't realized how easy the decision had been. And no, I'm not going to tell them now. 15-20 years on, I'm staying quiet unless they directly ask me and only if I think they'll be supportive about it. This means respecting my wishes for what I want to share, what I want them to do, and not being raging asshats about it. But I don't see any of that happening. And that's fine. They can't make it better and I'm not interested in trying to fix their shitty opinions by becoming an emotional prop in a debate that I couldn't win intellectually with them.
To answer OP's question: I don't think this will be a turning point. Or at least, I don't think we'll see a significant change soon. Just like the 1980s/90s backlash to 1970s feminism, I think we'll see a backlash to all this too. (I think the Republican stubbornness over Kavanaugh's nomination *is* backlash.) 3 steps forward, 2.95 steps back. But the 0.05 steps will be meaningful and it will make a difference in some ways. Maybe there will be more parents who learn how to make their children feel safe in talking to them. Maybe more people won't laugh at bad rape jokes that punch down at victims. Maybe more people will learn what affirmative consent is. It's not enough but it's not nothing.