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OP
OP
NYR

NYR

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,020
Whats Chapter 19 about? Detail would be great

https://globalnews.ca/news/4422423/nafta-chapter-19-explainer/

Chapter 19 gives the United States, Canada and Mexico the right to challenge each others' anti-dumping and countervailing duty decisions in front of an expert panel with members from both countries involved in a dispute.

Anti-dumping cases are used to block imports on the basis that the exporting country is not trading fairly, for example by subsidizing a domestic industry so it can set low prices.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
So overall, it looks like Canada got Trump to agree with most of Obama's provisions laid out in TPP? And kepI chapter 19?

How ironic,
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,015
I can hear the Orange shithead already in my head talking about how this is a great victory for the working class of America. That he himself singlehandedly fought Trudeau to the death for the deal and then righteously spared his political life because he is a nice guy like that.
 

JK-Money

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,558
https://globalnews.ca/news/4422423/nafta-chapter-19-explainer/

Chapter 19 gives the United States, Canada and Mexico the right to challenge each others' anti-dumping and countervailing duty decisions in front of an expert panel with members from both countries involved in a dispute.

Anti-dumping cases are used to block imports on the basis that the exporting country is not trading fairly, for example by subsidizing a domestic industry so it can set low prices.
Glad that was kept in, thanks for the info
 

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,678
Whats Chapter 19 about? Detail would be great

Chapter 19 gives the United States, Canada and Mexico the right to challenge each others' anti-dumping and countervailing duty decisions in front of an expert panel with members from both countries involved in a dispute. Anti-dumping cases are used to block imports on the basis that the exporting country is not trading fairly, for example by subsidizing a domestic industry so it can set low prices.

When NAFTA and the earlier Canadian-U.S. Free Trade Agreement were negotiated, Canada pushed the United States to give up the right to bring anti-dumping cases against its neighbors completely, but the United States refused. Chapter 19 was a compromise. During a speech in Ottawa last year, Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland reminded her audience that Canada had walked out of trade talks with the United States in 1987 over the issue.

The system has not been used heavily in the last 10 years. The best known cases, and all of the currently active cases that involve Canada, are about softwood lumber. Active cases between Mexico and the United States cover U.S. fertilizer, and steel pipe and washing machines made in Mexico.

In the mid-2000s, in the midst of the last round of softwood lumber disputes, Chapter 19 panels repeatedly ruled against the United States to fight back, before both sides negotiated a truce.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4422423/nafta-chapter-19-explainer/
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,187
This actually sounds reasonable. Dairy had to be softened, it was not in keeping with fair trade. I say this as a Canadian.

fuuuuucking Trudeau giving Trump a win...

Preserving north american free trade agreements is in the interests of both countries. The fact that trump managed to almost fuck up one of the most stable and profitable relationships in the world, then subsequently fix it, is not exactly a "trump win"
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,858
fuuuuucking Trudeau giving Trump a win...
As opposed to what? Putting us in a recession to claim the moral high ground? My pride doesn't pay my mortgage.

If some moron wants to brag about delusions of grandeur while Canada gets what it wanted all along and makes minimal concessions then by all mean, let the orange braggard sing to his Neanderthal base.
 
Oct 30, 2017
4,190
As opposed to what? Putting us in a recession to claim the moral high ground? My pride doesn't pay my mortgage.

If some moron wants to brag about delusions of grandeur while Canada gets what it wanted all along and makes minimal concessions then by all mean, let the orange braggard sing to his Neanderthal base.

Some people would rather burn their house down than to placate Trump with a morsel. It's not particularly reasonable. You don't have to kiss his ass but you don't have to self-destruct either.

"Should we agree to this deal that's basically TPP and gives us stuff we want?" "No way, think of how he'll brag on Twitter!"

Not to mention there's no guarantee any of this will come to fruition given the hurdles it has to pass. It's basically a free ticket to get him from doing something stupid.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,677
The only negative here is we haven't completely undone supply management and destroyed the dairy cartel.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Thanks for helping Trump Canada. Trump is gonna act like the US scored the biggest economic win in history now.
 

Silex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,754
So Canada gives US minor concessions on dairy in return for keeping Chapter 19? Trudeau and Freeland just pulled the mother of all coups.
 

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,678
This actually sounds reasonable. Dairy had to be softened, it was not in keeping with fair trade. I say this as a Canadian.

The crazy thing here is, Trump basically agreed to the restricted increase in dairy allowance, that we were already willing to allow in the TPP from the Obama administration. Because that TPP lost the US IP aspects and negative clauses they wanted to push because Trump backed out of that agreement, it became the CPTPP we signed with 11 other countries. Trump was pushing hard for 100% retirement of our supply chain management system, which did not occur because we allowed a marginal total similar to the CETA agreement signed last year with the EU. Neither did the shutdown of Chapter 19, nor the inclusion of a sunset clause, which would have fucked everyone up.

The trade-off? Trump gets to talk about an agreement being done to his citizens, while we get the fuck out of Dodge by coming away with an agreement we can live with.

Trudeau and Freeland basically did the following:

There is a move in basketball called pulling the chair out. The defender basically pushs into the lower back of the offensive player who is posting up on them in the paint. They create a back and forth push and pull movement as this match-up occurs. The idea is to make the offensive player have more backward movement with the idea that you are giving up territory to their strength.

Once the defender is ready, on the next push by the opposing player, the defender then simply moves away altogether, causing the other player to fall on their ass like a chair was pulled out from underneath them.

A turnover ensues.

You could call it rope a dope as well, as it may be more fitting for Trump. Since we dragged this out until literally the last second that Trump could still present a deal.
 

Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,369
It will actually be amusing to watch Trump gloat to his supporters about his total victory when in reality he'll get a 5% access to the dairy market (or something like that).
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,971
Thanks for helping Trump Canada. Trump is gonna act like the US scored the biggest economic win in history now.

Not our problem.
YrOcuVu.jpg
 
OP
OP
NYR

NYR

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,020
On the same page as your post:
Dairy concessions are a major blow to Canada and Quebec. Even TPP levels would hurt Canada since it means more US dairy in the Canadian market. I never said this deal is a loser for Canada - Canada won some and lost some and I highlighted one of the losses. Highlighting the losses doesn't mean there wasn't wins or the entire deal is a loss.
 

Deleted member 29676

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,804
It does when you're negotiating with a lunatic who wants you to give up everything.

"give up everything" is a pretty standard negotiation starting point. Why take anything off the table unless you get something for it.

I think Canada did well in the negotiations but understanding why takes nuance that won't be read nearly as much as the incoming tweets.
 

Merguson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
475
I'm assuming this is what people meant when they mentioned auto export quotas. This is from Bloomberg's live feed.

Canada will get auto tariff exemption as part of the Nafta deal, my colleagues Josh Wingrove and Jenny Leonard report citing people familiar with the talks.

Canadian auto exports up to a certain threshold will not be impacted by any U.S. tariffs on automobiles, a key reprieve for Canada as part of a Nafta deal struck with the U.S.

Current Canadian production levels of roughly 1.8 million units would not be affected by any tariffs that U.S. President Donald Trump has threatened, three people familiar with talks said. Tariffs would not kick in until Canadian auto exports to the U.S. topped 2.6 million units annually, two of the people said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live...low-organic&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business
 

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,678
"give up everything" is a pretty standard negotiation starting point. Why take anything off the table unless you get something for it.

I think Canada did well in the negotiations but understanding why takes nuance that won't be read nearly as much as the incoming tweets.

Yeah, that's the thing.

This will basically turn into another "USA Wins World Cup Game! Final Score 1-1" to the regular Trump follower.
 

Yoma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
638
As opposed to what? Putting us in a recession to claim the moral high ground? My pride doesn't pay my mortgage.

If some moron wants to brag about delusions of grandeur while Canada gets what it wanted all along and makes minimal concessions then by all mean, let the orange braggard sing to his Neanderthal base.

I care about the NAFTA agreement and I hate the fact that the fucking president would kill it based on an empty threat. I believe Trudeau caved into his demands but granted I probably fucked up by jumping into conclusions. >.>

I just don't want Trump to keep the presidency anymore and anything that bolsters his chances concerns me.
 

Phrozenflame500

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,132
Seems ok, less protectionism in retail and dairy is a win for consumers of both countries and keeping Chapter 19 intact is important. The auto quota stuff seems a bit concerning though.
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,015
Wow, the auto industry produces that many units? I assume this is including parts, not just automobiles?

Because if that's just automobiles, holy shit. How many cars do people actually drive?
 

Dobby

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
185
Overall seems like a win for Canadian consumers but a meaningful political loss for Trudeau. The negatives coming out of this affect Canadian dairy and auto industries, which are essentially the two strongest lobby groups in Canada. Oops.

But hey, I'm looking forward to cheaper milk! Bring on the Fairlife, that stuff is magic.
 

Deleted member 15948

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
786
Guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out the nitpicky details but...

American dairy? Up here? Ew, gross.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
Overall seems like a win for Canadian consumers but a meaningful political loss for Trudeau. The negatives coming out of this affect Canadian dairy and auto industries, which are essentially the two strongest lobby groups in Canada. Oops.

But hey, I'm looking forward to cheaper milk! Bring on the Fairlife, that stuff is magic.

If your big takeaway is looking forward to cheaper milk, is this really a political loss? Unless you're in the diary industry yourself. As to how it will affect the auto sector...


I'm assuming this is what people meant when they mentioned auto export quotas. This is from Bloomberg's live feed.

Canada will get auto tariff exemption as part of the Nafta deal, my colleagues Josh Wingrove and Jenny Leonard report citing people familiar with the talks.

Canadian auto exports up to a certain threshold will not be impacted by any U.S. tariffs on automobiles, a key reprieve for Canada as part of a Nafta deal struck with the U.S.

Current Canadian production levels of roughly 1.8 million units would not be affected by any tariffs that U.S. President Donald Trump has threatened, three people familiar with talks said. Tariffs would not kick in until Canadian auto exports to the U.S. topped 2.6 million units annually, two of the people said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/live...low-organic&cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business

...Canada would need to grow the auto industry ~45% before the tariffs hit.
 

Raspyberry

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,237
Overall seems like a win for Canadian consumers but a meaningful political loss for Trudeau. The negatives coming out of this affect Canadian dairy and auto industries, which are essentially the two strongest lobby groups in Canada. Oops.

But hey, I'm looking forward to cheaper milk! Bring on the Fairlife, that stuff is magic.
It's funny because as mentioned the Conservatives would've rolled over very early under Scheer.
 

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,678

Team America: World Police throw-up style? Me too, brother/sister, me too.

We dodged a bullet with it remaining as NAFTA in name.

Also, does anyone else not realize that it can't be a sheer coincidence that this agreement only occured literally at the 11th hour before Trump could legally present any deal to Congress?

Freeland, you sneaky sneaky lady.
 

Slime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,971
The fun thing about opening up the dairy market to the US is they could all just put their tails between their legs and pull their product (a la Target), because so many Canadians are grossed out by US dairy to begin with.

Team America: World Police throw-up style? Me too, brother/sister, me too.

We dodged a bullet with it remaining as NAFTA in name.

Also, does anyone else not realize that it can't be a sheer coincidence that this agreement only occured literally at the 11th hour before Trump could legally present any deal to Congress?

Freeland, you sneaky sneaky lady.

Lol

Yeah, they were smart in letting it go down to the wire. Future PM!
 

Raspyberry

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,237
Guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out the nitpicky details but...

American dairy? Up here? Ew, gross.
Just don't buy it. I've been avoiding anything from the US for grocery since this happened and will continue to do so while Trump is in power. Gotta punish the Americans for allowing this to happen and avoiding American products is the only way how.