Explain Toxic Masculinity Please.

GameAddict411 · Sep 28, 2018

It's when a man is forced to act a certain way because it's what men are supposed to do regardless of what the person thinks. or believes. Example: Men are not supposed to like pink because it's too girly. So a men should not mention that they like pink even when they do. Another more serious example is that men can only express one emotion and that's anger. Men can't show joy, sadness, or any emotions that show vulnerabilities. This causes a substantial amount of men to suppress their emotions and that could be very negative to the mental health of these men. That's toxic masculinity. It also can extend to insecurities regarding gender roles and it has broad implications.

samoyed · Sep 28, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Also Man Up doenst mean "male" in the strictest sense.

It's one of those things, when a turn of phrase becomes so common people lose sight of its origin but it absolutely means "man" in the sense of "male", because manhood is valuable and femininity isn't valuable (except when it comes to men looking for a partner in a woman).

A lot of our language is rooted in old biases of male over female (man up, you throw like a girl), adults over youth (grow up, act your age), superior over inferior (don't let someone boss you around, respect your betters).

excelsiorlef · Sep 28, 2018

Doof Angle said:
Joined Monday, banned Friday. What a story, Mark.

I've had it with these Monday to Friday posters on this Monday to Friday forum.

GameAddict411 · Sep 28, 2018

D65 said:
Some American thing

Toxic masculinity is actually one of the most universal thing among cultures world wide. It's even there in cultures that flourished completely independently.

Vibed · Sep 28, 2018

TheSearchForBigfoot said:
We are physically stronger than women and our brains are better at math, science, spatial relations. So yes. That is genetically hard wired in many/most men because it was desirable throughout most of human history.

Emasculated beta males would not have survived most of human history.

Manning up. Being strong. Those were good things until very recently. The problem is men were too successful. We defeated nature and created a society with very little danger compared to what our ancestors faced. Once desirable traits are no longer desirable. Feminists think men are obsolete.

Yes, men are better than these things than women, on average. To apply that to the individual, who varies greatly, is silly, and only harms the many people who buy into these generalities as if they're the Bible for all.

Famassu · Sep 28, 2018

TheSearchForBigfoot said:
We are physically stronger than women and our brains are better at math, science, spatial relations. So yes. That is genetically hard wired in many/most men because it was desirable throughout most of human history.

Emasculated beta males would not have survived most of human history.

Manning up. Being strong. Those were good things until very recently. The problem is men were too successful. We defeated nature and created a society with very little danger compared to what our ancestors faced. Once desirable traits are no longer desirable. Feminists think men are obsolete.

Some of the brightest, most revolutionary scientists in math heavy natural sciences throughout time have been women. Of course you wouldn't know that because you probably believe the history books that are filled with men stealing the glory for inventions and scientific findings.

And oh god you believe in the whole beta male crap. That doesn't even exist in the animals that were first thought to portray the alpha/beta distinction, let alone in humans.

And no, feminists don't think men are obsolete. What kind of silly notion is that?

Mr. X · Sep 28, 2018

Men getting clowned for interests deemed 'for women' or vice versa

Ex. Women wanting to do contact sports, male nurses

Thordinson · Sep 28, 2018

Vibed said:
Yes, men are better than these things than women, on average.

But they aren't other than physical strength.

EDIT: Another one for fun

Using data from four international assessments of the academic achievement of 1.5 million 15 year olds (Programme for International Student Assessment, PISA), we demonstrate that the relation between sex differences in PISA achievement and national measures of gender equality is not consistent across assessments, and several of the positive findings are confounded by outliers. Further, for overall achievement across reading, mathematics, and science literacy girls outperformed boys in 70% of participating countries

Cryptosporidium · Sep 28, 2018

Stalker said:
Traits of "being a man" instilled in generations by those prior that when objectively looked at are either detrimental to their own well being or that of those around them.

The other aspect is accepted cultural norms for males that society has for a long time just let slide when ultimately they are actually a bad thing.

Rape in marriage (legal in the US 40 years ago because you owned your woman dammit), domestic violence, boys will be boys, cat calling etc etc

Rivenblade · Sep 28, 2018

TheSearchForBigfoot said:
We are physically stronger than women and our brains are better at math, science, spatial relations. So yes. That is genetically hard wired in many/most men because it was desirable throughout most of human history.

Emasculated beta males would not have survived most of human history.

Manning up. Being strong. Those were good things until very recently. The problem is men were too successful. We defeated nature and created a society with very little danger compared to what our ancestors faced. Once desirable traits are no longer desirable. Feminists think men are obsolete.

No clue where you get the idea that feminists think men are obsolete. I'm having a hard time processing what you could even mean by that. That men in general don't exist in feminists' minds? That alpha males don't exist in feminists' mind? That straight feminist women don't need men? Or gay feminist women? Strange things to say.

kswiston · Sep 28, 2018

excelsiorlef said:
I've had it with these Monday to Friday posters on this Monday to Friday forum.

Iunderstoodthatreference.gif

sph3re · Sep 28, 2018

Being too masculine to go to therapy because feelings are gay

Being toxic towards women to prove your worth as a man

Among a multitude of other things

Silvergun-Blue · Sep 28, 2018

TheSearchForBigfoot said:
We are physically stronger than women and our brains are better at math, science, spatial relations. So yes. That is genetically hard wired in many/most men because it was desirable throughout most of human history.

Emasculated beta males would not have survived most of human history.

Manning up. Being strong. Those were good things until very recently. The problem is men were too successful. We defeated nature and created a society with very little danger compared to what our ancestors faced. Once desirable traits are no longer desirable. Feminists think men are obsolete.

r/incels getting banned really did a number on you guys huh.

Westbahnhof · Sep 28, 2018

Mr. X said:
male nurses

This, btw, is especially fucked up in German, IMO.
Female nurses were traditionally called "Krankenschwester". I think this is rooted in nun stuff, but basically, it means "Sick person sister". I've seen old people (in homes for the elderly) be super confused what to call a male nurse, since they'd call out "Schwester!/Sister!" to get a nurses attention usually. This little old lady kept yelling "Bruder!/Brother!", it was adorable, but also showed how necessary a new term was.

Fudgepuppy · Sep 28, 2018

I love this comic about the subject.

And this TED talk.

Son Lamar · Sep 28, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
It comes up all the time on here and sometimes feels like folks are saying it when it doesn't fit, which lead me to ask myself if I truly understand the concept more than being a catch all buzz word for a guy who is also a jerk.

help me out.

I couldn't find a thread but I never seem to search correctly.

Lol i think I know why this thread was made and it should be

samoyed · Sep 28, 2018

sph3re said:
Being too masculine to go to therapy because feelings are gay

Not hugging your male friend or providing emotional support/receiving emotional support cuz that's gay.

Dice · Sep 28, 2018

TheSearchForBigfoot said:
We are physically stronger than women and our brains are better at math, science, spatial relations. So yes. That is genetically hard wired in many/most men because it was desirable throughout most of human history.

Emasculated beta males would not have survived most of human history.

Manning up. Being strong. Those were good things until very recently. The problem is men were too successful. We defeated nature and created a society with very little danger compared to what our ancestors faced. Once desirable traits are no longer desirable. Feminists think men are obsolete.

Rendering... said:
Women of Era, though your limbs be weak and your brains be dim, repose in comfort, for we alpha males cast long shadows.

lmao for fucking real... what the fuck did I just read. It just feels like some giant man-ape wants to protect me from fellow man-apes (and I'd just want both of them to leave me alone).

Mr. X · Sep 28, 2018

Rendering... said:
Women of Era, though your limbs be weak and your brains be dim, repose in comfort, for we alpha males cast long shadows.

You have my fedora

Anthony Hopkins · Sep 28, 2018

Its when men act to macho and agressive and it a lie.
It like a form of social peer pressure.
Becase people just

Deleted member 3093 · Sep 28, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Got it. (it's always The Godfather ) I'm not sure I 100% agree with it's usage and I do believe there are differences in men and women that should be respected but not exacerbated however, I get the concept and can be more aware.

One of these differences in men and women shouldn't be men engaging in unhealthy behavior

HamCormier · Sep 28, 2018

Famassu said:
That doesn't even exist in the animals that were first thought to portray the alpha/beta distinction, let alone in humans.

Nevermind what he said -- are you sure of that? That the alpha/beta distinction doesn't exist in animals?

GrooveCommand · Sep 28, 2018

To me, toxic masculinity is anything that reinforces gender stereotypes regarding men.

For example, sometimes I like to sit down when I go #1 at home. I've been criticized for this because it doesn't fit the gender stereotype of a man. The reality is that I'm comfortable with my sexuality and believe that has nothing to do with how I choose to go the bathroom.

Soapbox Killer · Sep 28, 2018

A.By said:
One of these differences in men and women shouldn't be men engaging in unhealthy behavior

Doesn't this imply some petty bad stuff only about men or Am I reading this wrong?

HamCormier · Sep 28, 2018

GrooveCommand said:
For example, sometimes I like to sit down when I go #1 at home. I've been criticized for this because it doesn't fit the gender stereotype of a man. The reality is that I'm comfortable with my sexuality and believe that has nothing to do with how I choose to go the bathroom.

Who criticises how you go to the bathroom? Why do they know? o_O ;)

Famassu · Sep 28, 2018

HamCormier said:
Nevermind what he said -- are you sure of that? That the alpha/beta distinction doesn't exist in animals?

At least it doesn't exist in wolves that IIRC were (among) the first group of animals thought to have the alpha/beta male dictomy.

sph3re · Sep 28, 2018

samoyed said:
Not hugging your male friend or providing emotional support/receiving emotional support cuz that's gay.

Jesus Christ, that's upsetting.

Westbahnhof · Sep 28, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Doesn't this imply some petty bad stuff only about men or Am I reading this wrong?

Why would it? A.By was saying that toxic masculinity enforces/enables/supports men engaging in unhealthy behavior, for example the whole "boys don't cry" thing.

KtotheRoc · Sep 28, 2018

I saw a tweet (that I can't remember where I saw it) that described it as they aren't men, they aren't adults, they are little boys who have become old.

Famassu · Sep 28, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Doesn't this imply some petty bad stuff only about men or Am I reading this wrong?

We are discussing toxic masculinity. It's a negative thing. Men doing negative things.

HamCormier · Sep 28, 2018

Famassu said:
At least it doesn't exist in wolves that IIRC were (among) the first group of animals thought to have the alpha/beta male dictomy.

Ah yeah right right. I read that too. Wolves actually just hang out with family members (so wholesome <3 ) :

Labeling a high-ranking wolf alpha emphasizes its rank in a dominance hierarchy. However, in natural wolf packs, the alpha male or female are merely the breeding animals, the parents of the pack, and dominance contests with other wolves are rare, if they exist at all. During my 13 summers observing the Ellesmere Island pack, I saw none.

Thus, calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha. Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so "alpha" adds no information. Why not refer to an alpha female as the female parent, the breeding female, the matriarch, or simply the mother? Such a designation emphasizes not the animal's dominant status, which is trivial information, but its role as pack progenitor, which is critical information.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/wolf-pack-photo/

But it definitely exists in Primates, though. I mean, if alpha means : gaining leadership of a group by display of strength.

Chopchop · Sep 28, 2018

HamCormier said:
Nevermind what he said -- are you sure of that? That the alpha/beta distinction doesn't exist in animals?

It may exist in other animals, but the term as people use it came from what we thought we knew about wolf behavior... except the author of the book that talked about alpha wolf behavior later said he was wrong, and updated his findings with a new paper.

https://www.businessinsider.com/no-such-thing-alpha-male-2016-10
The guy's paper: https://www.wolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/267alphastatus_english.pdf

The short of it is that people think of the term "alpha" as the dominant member of a group. The word "alpha" suggests that a member somehow has superior traits to other members of its group, which then leads the alpha to have an easier time finding a mate.

What the author later found was that this isn't true among wolves in the wild, because wolves a) typically all manage to find a mate, regardless of traits, and b) wolves typically find a mate, then leave their pack to start their own pack. So not only do all wolves manage to find a mate, but there don't seem to be any defining traits that make them better or worse at it.

Finally, the author says that the dominant aspect of the term "alpha" doesn't make sense in the context of wolf packs because a male and female wolf that goes off to form their own family are naturally the dominant wolves of that pack, because all the wolves in the pack are their children. So instead of saying "alpha male" and "alpha female", it makes more sense to just call them parents.

Z-Beat · Sep 28, 2018

When maintaining the image of being a tough guy prompts negative behavior towards both yourself and others.

Deleted member 3093 · Sep 28, 2018

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
Doesn't this imply some petty bad stuff only about men or Am I reading this wrong?

It directly makes reference to a problem that men have as a result of society, not an innate characteristic of men to be bad.

wandering · Sep 28, 2018

Funnily enough, Axe out of all brands put out an ad addressing the issue

Meanwhile, the rest of their advertising fits in pretty well with the atmosphere of toxic masculinity.

samoyed · Sep 28, 2018

sph3re said:
Jesus Christ, that's upsetting.

Some other important (I think) graphics.

Women report more feelings of depression than men, usually to the tune of 200%.

Suicide is more common in 'flyover states'.

At the risk of being irresponsibly speculative, I'd say this paints a pretty vivid picture of toxic masculinity. We associate toxic masculinity with old norms and traditions of stoic machismo. These norms are tied closely with conservatism. Women might be depressed more often but they can handle that depression better because they're taught to manage their own emotions (for good or for ill). Men are taught to channel emotions into action and usually the only action available to them is self destruction (via alcohol, sociopathic behaviors, suicide).

Farm suicides on the rise: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-farmers-rising-suicide-rates-plummeting-incomes/

Suicide overepresented by white men, and it's usually by firearms: https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

The annual age-adjusted suicide rate is 13.42 per 100,000individuals.

Men die by suicide 3.53x more often than women.

On average, there are 123 suicides per day.

White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2016.

Firearms account for 51% of all suicides in 2016.

The rate of suicide is highest in middle age — white men in particular

I'm glad this topic was made because it's a good opportunity to bring up the confluence of issues, gun control, mental health, sexism and gender norms that literally results in deaths. When feminists/progressive rail against the old norms, it's not just because they want a better life for little Jane, but because it helps little Bobby as well.

Maurice Hamblin · Sep 28, 2018

XolSec said:
I think George Carlin explains it in a very funny and accurate way.

...ok?

xolsec · Sep 28, 2018

Maurice Hamblin said:
...ok?

Ok

Spinluck · Sep 28, 2018

Captain of Outer Space said:
Not being able to admit to any sort of weakness (injury, illness, mental health, etc) because I'm a guy. I'm told that I need to man up and be a perfect being for some unknown reason. No calling off for work, no taking time off for my own needs, or anything like that. It leads to me feeling like crap all of the time because I'm not supposed to talk about it.

This post is scarcely accurate. Although it sounds like you have personal experience with this. This is something I am currently struggling with and is well within the realms of an aspect of toxic masculinity that kind of gets overlooked.

TheSearchForBigfoot said:
We are physically stronger than women and our brains are better at math, science, spatial relations. So yes. That is genetically hard wired in many/most men because it was desirable throughout most of human history.

Emasculated beta males would not have survived most of human history.

Manning up. Being strong. Those were good things until very recently. The problem is men were too successful. We defeated nature and created a society with very little danger compared to what our ancestors faced. Once desirable traits are no longer desirable. Feminists think men are obsolete.

Honestly not even a "/s" at the end would've saved this post tbh.

Tales from your ass.

electroshockwave · Sep 28, 2018

I don't feel that this thread was created in earnest based on OP's replies.

Bobson Dugnutt · Sep 28, 2018

removed this part of my post because in fairness after reading the thread it's not the way the thread has gone even though I've seen that kind of rhetoric in the past

Apharmd said:
It's kind of become a catch-all for a lot of stuff, is used for a lot of situations where it shouldn't be, and a stalking horse for certain positions. It sucks hearing all the time because masculinity can be great, competition between men and young men elevates achievement, in some ways it's the foundation of Western society, and as a father it's tough to raise boys in an environment where you can't foster that. But there are definitely aspects of masculinity, machismo, whatever, that are harmful. It makes men more susceptible to mental illness, alcoholism, homelessness, and other problems at disproportionate rates. We can't ignore those aspects that are toxic, either.

pretty much where I'm at with it. Though the guy talking about beta males with a straight face isn't really helping

Dream Machine · Sep 28, 2018

I wish I could reach into everyone's brain and increase their reading/listening comprehension to understand that toxic masculinity means "aspects of masculinity that are or can be toxic" and not "masculinity as a whole is inherently toxic".

samoyed · Sep 28, 2018

Dream Machine said:
I wish I could reach into everyone's brain and increase their reading/listening comprehension to understand that toxic masculinity means "aspects of masculinity that are or can be toxic" and not "masculinity as a whole is inherently toxic".

Seconded.

Just reiterating that "toxic" in "toxic masculinity" is a descriptor, it describes the cases of masculinity when it becomes toxic (harmful to others, to yourself). Contrast with the unused but grammatically illustrative "benign masculinity". Compare with the phrases "cancerous tumor" and "benign tumor".

Dream Machine · Sep 28, 2018

samoyed said:
Seconded.

Just reiterating that "toxic" in "toxic masculinity" is a descriptor, it describes the cases of masculinity when it becomes toxic (harmful to others, to yourself). Contrast with the unused but grammatically illustrative "benign masculinity". Compare with the phrases "cancerous tumor" and "benign tumor".

I have to wonder how much of the confusion is disingenuous. Would the same people react like this:

"I don't like him. He's the epitome of a bad guy."

"Oh, so all men are bad?! That's so unfair."

?

The leap from one to the other is such a deflection.

samoyed · Sep 28, 2018

I assume there's some genuine confusion for some people unused to lefty terms but yeah it's mostly deflection/gut defensiveness from what I've seen.

It's like when someone criticizes a console/platform and some apologists immediately dig in their heels.

Armaros · Sep 28, 2018

HamCormier said:
Nevermind what he said -- are you sure of that? That the alpha/beta distinction doesn't exist in animals?

Yes wolves, which is the common thing referenced, do not have alpha or beta hierarchys as we previously thought.

sph3re · Sep 28, 2018

samoyed said:
Not hugging your male friend or providing emotional support/receiving emotional support cuz that's gay.

samoyed said:
Some other important (I think) graphics.

Women report more feelings of depression than men, usually to the tune of 200%.

Suicide is more common in 'flyover states'.

At the risk of being irresponsibly speculative, I'd say this paints a pretty vivid picture of toxic masculinity. We associate toxic masculinity with old norms and traditions of stoic machismo. These norms are tied closely with conservatism. Women might be depressed more often but they can handle that depression better because they're taught to manage their own emotions (for good or for ill). Men are taught to channel emotions into action and usually the only action available to them is self destruction (via alcohol, sociopathic behaviors, suicide).

Farm suicides on the rise: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-farmers-rising-suicide-rates-plummeting-incomes/

Suicide overepresented by white men, and it's usually by firearms: https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

I'm glad this topic was made because it's a good opportunity to bring up the confluence of issues, gun control, mental health, sexism and gender norms that literally results in deaths. When feminists/progressive rail against the old norms, it's not just because they want a better life for little Jane, but because it helps little Bobby as well.

You're doing good work in here, samoyed , mad props

It's something I see commonly attributed to "radical feminists," but those guys don't realize how much toxic masculinity hurts men as well as women.

I have no idea what else to say to this, you've honestly said it all perfectly.

TheGhost · Sep 28, 2018

I thibk its because men are uncomfortable with feelings. I have no problem expressing my own feelings. But when I see another dude visibly upset it annoys me. I have zero idea why, a switch just goes off in my head and before I know it the words are flying out of my mouth "stop crying man"

When I was younger, I was maybe ten years old and on vacation and I was awoken to my father at my bedside weeping...having to tell me that his father passed away. It scarred me for life and I don't know why. Because until that day and everyday since (25 years later) the man has never a tear. (Actually he did when his hip popped and seeing him in that much pain scared the shit out of me because I wasn't prepared for it and it actually froze me in place)

I probably need therapy to deal with that.

sph3re · Sep 28, 2018

TheGhost said:
I thibk its because men are uncomfortable with feelings. I have no problem expressing my own feelings. But when I see another dude visibly upset it annoys me. I have zero idea why, a switch just goes off in my head and before I know it the words are flying out of my mouth "stop crying man"

When I was younger, I was maybe ten years old and on vacation and I was awoken to my father at my bedside weeping...having to tell me that his father passed away. It scarred me for life and I don't know why. Because until that day and everyday since (25 years later) the man has never a tear. (Actually he did when his hip popped and seeing him in that much pain scared the shit out of me because I wasn't prepared for it and it actually froze me in place)

I probably need therapy to deal with that.

I think men are uncomfortable with feelings because they're taught not to be comfortable with feelings. I think that's the crux of the issue, is that boys need to be taught about feelings when they're young so they don't end up blowing their brains out because they can't let it out.

Amnesty · Sep 28, 2018

Here's part of my perspective on toxic masculinity -

I work as a crisis counsellor. I speak with a lot of men who call to talk about deeply repressed emotions. Feelings that they never, absolutely never, express to anyone at all. They almost always describe how they were raised to believe that any engagement with their emotions is weakness (I've had men tell me, when I ask how they feel about a certain situation or event, that 'there's no feelings involved here'). Even acknowledging their emotion is weak. They are the kind of people who won't even see a counsellor or therapist in person. They bottle it up inside and really hurt themselves because they never let it out, which can cause a host of issues. Often, when they call, they admit that they don't even understand why they called - it's just like an impulse that they can't control - they need to talk to someone and part of them deep down knows that, but they can't do it in 'real life' because of how ingrained the attitude of feelings being weak is. These are just everyday people, not pathologically mentally ill people. Most people that call these lines are just going through a tough time in the moment or for a while.

It's a real barrier to them being able to resolve the issues they face in life. Being aware of your emotions in times of crisis or low moods (or anytime really) is crucial. Without that awareness and engagement, you will get stuck in patterns of thought and behaviour. It's part of why our society is fucked up in a lot of ways - we're in a period of semi permanent crisis societally, and the people with the most power right now - men, have real problems engaging with an awareness of how their emotions affect them and others.

I also notice how this kind of mindset can make the men I speak with create within themselves an attitude of superiority. Some will refuse to seek help because they genuinely believe they're smarter than any counsellor or therapist they could see. Which is of course irrational, but the denial of emotion goes hand in hand with building up a wall of arrogance.

Explain Toxic Masculinity Please.

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