If you've played the first game, Raz is as prominent if not more so as Rosie and Largo. He can't be avoided.
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VG247: Valkyria Chronicles 4’s sexual harassment problem is unacceptable in 2018 (READ OP)
- Thread starter Bundy
- Start date
If you've played the first game, Raz is as prominent if not more so as Rosie and Largo. He can't be avoided.
Hm. I wonder why it does head-to-toe camera pans on the female characters but not the dude.
Very mysterious.
Wonder if this will affect sales. Dragons Crown got bashed and sold okay. Looked like the clown guy was stupid and got punched. Maybe they will just go back to censored versions of games for the west.
Mixed gender units can have issues like this in real life. Marines just dealt with fraternization for the woman who qualified for infantry. Real bummer she was trailblazer. Show the real consequences for doing something stupid like that.
Men and women make comments to each other amongst peers. Just have both or completely remove.
Seems like a stupid gag. A small niche game like this. They made themselves an easy target. Just change the content for the west. Will be interesting if this is the overall opinion or just a small pocket. Also wonder if developers pushed to have this in the game.
Wish we had a poll to see how many want this removed or censored. Or how many see as harmless and a gag.
Either way, if the game includes content like this. Nothing wrong with making people informed. From there, make the decision.
Mixed gender units can have issues like this in real life. Marines just dealt with fraternization for the woman who qualified for infantry. Real bummer she was trailblazer. Show the real consequences for doing something stupid like that.
Men and women make comments to each other amongst peers. Just have both or completely remove.
Seems like a stupid gag. A small niche game like this. They made themselves an easy target. Just change the content for the west. Will be interesting if this is the overall opinion or just a small pocket. Also wonder if developers pushed to have this in the game.
Wish we had a poll to see how many want this removed or censored. Or how many see as harmless and a gag.
Either way, if the game includes content like this. Nothing wrong with making people informed. From there, make the decision.
Is there also a fundamental lack of awareness about how to design women on the Japanese development front?
Wasn't there a thing about when Cindy was unveiled for FF15 and there was a negative reception, the team were like "huh, I don't get it, you said you wanted women in this game". Their literal appreciation of what people want from women characters in games is window dressing and bad-assery.
Games writing needs a lot maturing on a lot of fronts, but it is held back as any discussion around it stems from a selfish "don't make me feel bad about playing my favourite games!" sentiment.
Wasn't there a thing about when Cindy was unveiled for FF15 and there was a negative reception, the team were like "huh, I don't get it, you said you wanted women in this game". Their literal appreciation of what people want from women characters in games is window dressing and bad-assery.
Games writing needs a lot maturing on a lot of fronts, but it is held back as any discussion around it stems from a selfish "don't make me feel bad about playing my favourite games!" sentiment.
That's why they run surveys and such.
"Why didn't you buy VC4?" etc
Though for all we know the sex stuff might end up being a small portion of sales lost...
I like how I can tell you didn't read the article I linked because I knew you'd react exactly like this so I preemptively linked it. If you think the situation in Western society is comparable to that in Japan, you are either ignorant (read the article) or disingenuous.
Yeah as I said previously too that I don't personally mind if a game touches on issues like sexual harassment/assault and sexism. Just like any art. Even though this scene shows a retaliation from the woman, it's still really light hearted scene. The music that changes enhances that. And of course they also have the peek under the skirt in the same scene as a cherry on top. It's indeed a gag as you say. It's not presented well, doesn't have any actual weight to it. It's not presented seriously. All considered, sexual harassment even in fiction shouldn't be used as a harmless gag. Since it's not harmless, even in fiction since this normalizes and downplays the issue. "Boys being boys". The only problem isn't that scenes like these are made, but also the flippant attitude towards it from the audience. And way too many go further than just accepting this or looking past it, they find it actually funny. And would be disappointed if their protagonists and heroes wouldn't be "pervs". I guess they find them relatable.
You should direct this to people who defend this by "cultural differences". I agree with you, I don't believe for a second that Japanese people are collectively okay with sexual harassment and assault. Or find it hilarious. But many are trying to present this as a norm to the culture and not as something that is unacceptable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "otakus" aren't exactly a celebrated group in Japan? Atleast in Western leaning board like this, it's the "otakus" who are first to defend this. I use quotations for otaku since to my knowledge the word is used bit differently in Japan. But anime, waifus and female objectification are a big part of it there too (their obsession can be something else though). I feel there's an impression among some people that in Japan they wouldn't be looked down upon, this is false of course.
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This is a shame, I haven't finished the first game yet but I was always under the impression that a lot of the leaders in the universe were women so this is jarring to hear
Yeah it is pretty lame I must say. Me and my friend were laughing at how brazen it is. Don't really understand why they feel it is necessary to put that stuff in the game.
I don't think anyone is saying that everyone in Japan think characters like Roshi are funny. It's just not something they care that much about. My brothers girlfriend lived in New Zeeland for a couple of years and is verry outspoken for woman rights. Even considering that, she didn't really thought the particular VC4 scene was that problematic or odd.
It's very difficult to look at a different culture from your own perspective. In the Netherlands we still have Zwarte Piet. Almost everyone not living in the Netherlands thinks it is a odd tradition. Still probably 70%+ people of living in the Netherlands don't see any problem with Zwarte Piet/Black Pete.
The only way to fix this problem is removing content like this. It's going to take a extremely long time for Japan to change. We are probably not going to live long enough to see that day.
Yeah I don't think so either, but Goron2000 seemed to have the impression from this thread that some do.
We also have Tiernapojat, Star singers / Star boys that has a black face character. It's been heavily criticized for some time, but it's still a thing in some schools and other instances. Not everyone sees and understands why it's a tradition better left to past. Or they do understand why it's bad and want to continue the tradition just because of that. Though personally I'd probably be fine with it, if instead of black face they would have POC to play the part of "king of moors". We aren't that white anymore as a nation that anybody's face should be painted or have pantyhose on their head. But that's probably for another topic.
The OP could do a better job making it clear that the post is quotes from the article not something they wrote themselves. I do think describing the content, which is certainly tasteless, as "dangerous" reads as a little alarmist.
If they're referring to "anime/manga culture" then they should refer to it as such. The idea that its acceptable to use "anime" as a shorthand for Japanese culture is as stupid as the idea that its acceptable to use "film" as a shorthand for US culture.
If they're referring to "anime/manga culture" then they should refer to it as such. The idea that its acceptable to use "anime" as a shorthand for Japanese culture is as stupid as the idea that its acceptable to use "film" as a shorthand for US culture.
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I tried to follow your link but it just went page 5 of this thread... You've still not fixed it.
You actually did copy the wrong link. That link only works if people have the exact same posts per page setting you do.
This is the correct link: https://www.resetera.com/posts/13073545/
I havent played this game yet.
But i have just ordered it for ps4.
I really like this series.
Unique battle system.
But i have just ordered it for ps4.
I really like this series.
Unique battle system.
This series started with hints of an underage looking girl having the hots for her brother except -hint- they made really sure to point out they were not related by blood *wink*
Not surprised it's gotten much worse.
Not surprised it's gotten much worse.
Generalization much? "Anime" isn't a genre.
Uh, what? There is no official media that suggests any sort of attraction between Isara and Welkin. It doesn't exist.
That's bollocks. There were no incestuous overtones or undertones to the relationship. It was just normal familial affection.
Games like Dragons Crown exist to fill in a niche. The audience for Dragon Crown is big enough to cover its intended target audience. While VC4 will probably sell, It would have probably sold a lot more in the west if they hadn't included such a pathetic scene in the damn game.
When you have to resort to technicalities, then you don't have a good argument. IN any case, anime is a genre relative to Western countries. Genre just means themes that it shared among itself and anime is a genre.
People that downplay or defend Japan's issues with women and especially underaged girls should be on a government watchlist.
I'm as skeptical of these dumb anime tropes as the next person but I do not get that from the text of Valkyria Chronicles 1...at all.
Isara isn't related to Welkin by blood from a mechanical storytelling perspective because the story wanted her to face racism and ethnic persecution that Welkin did not.
What is the technicality? Are you seriously suggesting "anime" as a pejorative is something that actually carries serious meaning and isn't something uninformed people say about something they know nothing about?
It's hard to say. VC is already such a small, niche title that I think any lack of sales will just be attributed to that instead of anything else.
Are we really just making stuff up now in an attempt to attack the games? The fact that you interpreted their relationship that way is just so bizarre. As others have pointed out, there was clearly no romantic feelings between them.
Thank you. I've now read the article and the culture is present in Japan, I'm not disputing and have never disputed that there are issues with misogyny and rape in Japan. My problem is people generalising all Japanese people as a single entity that all endorses this behaviour. The article you linked states that the US has 114,000 reported rape cases a year and nobody is saying rape is part of American culture and the Americans don't know any better. I feel my point was very succinct and direct, it's not a disguised fight to allow harassment scenes in video games.
It's not a technicality in the least. Words have meaning. Anime is absolutely not a genre it is literally all Japanese animation. Grave of the Fireflies and Perfect Blue are not the same genre. Akira and Spirited Away are not the same genre. It's a medium not a genre. Saying its a genre makes the word meaningless. It's as stupid as saying "film" is a genre or "tv" is a genre. If someone tried to convince you that Frozen and The Exorcist are the same genre would you think they were an idiot? Oh I know you mean its a genre the way that The Simpsons and Game of Thrones are the same genre right? Come on. People always get weirdly defensive when called out on the nonsense of using anime to mean a genre.
Nah, VC1 isn't a good example of this.
Welkin and Isara actually treated each other like siblings on good terms. This isn't like an Eren and Mikasa Attack on Titan situation either
My interpretation too. Definitely decided to make him more vulgar.
Just so you know, I had to log off quickly and could only post it. Also, I wasn't super confident in my translation, but Labor pretty much confirmed I was right in my own translation. I didn't want to make an incorrect translation and to spread any misinformation. I was certain that none of the more vulgar words were there though.
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VC may have had its flaws (the villain's bust size, the beach episode, some of the outfits and other things), but I don't think incest (even just undertones) was one of them. Is there a video of the scenes in question? I must have completely blocked it out of my memory.
Alicia and Weskin are about the most cliche story you can have, boy meets girl and they fall in love, definitely don't remember a harem or anything lol. But it's been a while, so maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Alicia and Weskin are about the most cliche story you can have, boy meets girl and they fall in love, definitely don't remember a harem or anything lol. But it's been a while, so maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Valkyria Chronicles might actually be one of the few exceptions to the "anime sisters always want to fuck their anime brothers" rule.
"Racism is wrong" was a key theme in the story. We and those racist characters learn how that racism was fostered and exploited for political gain in the story. And the characters in our squad overcome their racist upbringing by the end.
Is VC4 about sexist characters learning to value and respect the other gender? If it is I'll support that.
The ass grabbing is definitely sexual harassment and I get why one would be upset by such a scene.
Having said that, I think creators/authors have the rights to depict such kinds of acts, as well as, rape, murder, theft, or any kind or crime or misbehaviour for that matter. This only becomes problematic when you can clearly see it being condoned/encouraged by the said author, which is not the case here, as we can see the ass grab is immediately followed by physical and moral consequences for the perpetrator (thrown to the ground and mocked by everyone).
Having said that, I think creators/authors have the rights to depict such kinds of acts, as well as, rape, murder, theft, or any kind or crime or misbehaviour for that matter. This only becomes problematic when you can clearly see it being condoned/encouraged by the said author, which is not the case here, as we can see the ass grab is immediately followed by physical and moral consequences for the perpetrator (thrown to the ground and mocked by everyone).
User Banned (1 Week): Downplaying sexual harassment
Idk, a girl once grabbed my ass to act flirtatious and I liked it, and I also thought it was strange.
From what I've seen, the issue is that this act of sexual harassment is an anime trope that is being played on for laughs, they even have a goofy music track that plays during the scene. I'd say the consequences are part of the humorous trope and not meant to be a message, especially since the scene is immediately followed up with an upskirt.
They are, a woman is your superior in tthis game as well.
It's not about it but the character in question does go through a sort of redemption arc shortly after this situation, he also gets buttblasted by the girl (Kai) and everyone in the camp mocks him when she does it, ofc the article doesn't say any of that
I kind of don't know why I said what I said earlier because having women in leadership positions totally doesn't negate sexism and I should know that because my CEO tells me all sorts of stories about workplace harassment. It just didn't feel like this was a problem in VC1. Can't speak for the others as much and I recall the spinoff Revolutio(?) had a character with massive boobs that felt out of place
While it's true that the game isn't condoning Raz's behaviour, the issue is not about that. The issue is how it presents it, downplaying sexual assault into something closer to "a harmless prank". By minimising things like that, it leads to the perception that it isn't a huge issue to grab someone's butt out of nowhere.
It's not quite as simple as "Raz grabs a butt and then someone in the real world grabs a butt," it's more about the aggregate effect of things like this in media, and how it contributes to overall harm.
I've only just finished chapter 4 myself, but my prediction is that the game will address Raz's impulsive behaviours but not call out this exact instance specifically.
It's not quite as simple as "Raz grabs a butt and then someone in the real world grabs a butt," it's more about the aggregate effect of things like this in media, and how it contributes to overall harm.
I've only just finished chapter 4 myself, but my prediction is that the game will address Raz's impulsive behaviours but not call out this exact instance specifically.
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory false equivalencies, downplaying concerns over sexism and misogyny, ignoring modpost. Junior account.
So, as a junior member I know this is signing my death warrant however I must say: isn't this forum meant to be a place of discussion? I find it baffling a difference of opinion is resulting in a ban...Like, honestly.
Having this scene in the game, is completely okay. Where are the threads about all the prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto? Where are the threads about that film you saw last week with a sexist character in it? Or the thread where you read a book with sexism in it? You're getting offended for the sake of getting offended and it's a huge problem in today's day and age.
Am I sexist? No. Do I support sexism? Absolutely not. In fact I am the last person in the world who ever would -- I'm innocent, I have a lovely girlfriend who I respect and admire -- so shouldn't I be getting just as offended in this regard that there is sexism in a game? I'm not. Because this isn't real life. It's a fictional game. A story. If the character is written in a as being a sexist character, then that is part of the character. Detach you mind from reality for one second; that's what media is meant to be. An escape. I want the game to be how the writers desired and if that includes a sexist character, it includes a sexist character. When something comes out, people complain about lack of content, people complain about a badly written story or shallow characters but what you're doing in this thread is taking away the freedom of the developers. If you want a completely innocent game which is completely hiding things which are a part of real life, go and play bust-a-move. Sexism happens in the everyday world and you know, hate on the character for being that way but don't bitch at the developers for including him. It's stupid. It really is. I don't get offended when I play a game like, I don't know, Fallout and I shoot a human being in the head. I don't post on a forum;
BETHESDA DEVELOPERS ALLOW COLD BLOODED MURDER IN THEIR NEW GAME.
Honestly, I feel like people hunt out ways to get offended rather than enjoy a good story. Is there nothing better to do? ...And to immediately ban anyone that has an opinion that isn't getting offended....I honestly thought more of this forum and am willing to go down over this because, I don't want to be a part of a forum that monitors opinions and polices discussion. I don't want to live in a robotic society where developers can't have creative freedom because it offends you. Live a little. Games are meant to be freedom; sexism in real life is a big no no but that doesn't mean you have to hide from it in a work of fiction. Sheesh.
Having this scene in the game, is completely okay. Where are the threads about all the prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto? Where are the threads about that film you saw last week with a sexist character in it? Or the thread where you read a book with sexism in it? You're getting offended for the sake of getting offended and it's a huge problem in today's day and age.
Am I sexist? No. Do I support sexism? Absolutely not. In fact I am the last person in the world who ever would -- I'm innocent, I have a lovely girlfriend who I respect and admire -- so shouldn't I be getting just as offended in this regard that there is sexism in a game? I'm not. Because this isn't real life. It's a fictional game. A story. If the character is written in a as being a sexist character, then that is part of the character. Detach you mind from reality for one second; that's what media is meant to be. An escape. I want the game to be how the writers desired and if that includes a sexist character, it includes a sexist character. When something comes out, people complain about lack of content, people complain about a badly written story or shallow characters but what you're doing in this thread is taking away the freedom of the developers. If you want a completely innocent game which is completely hiding things which are a part of real life, go and play bust-a-move. Sexism happens in the everyday world and you know, hate on the character for being that way but don't bitch at the developers for including him. It's stupid. It really is. I don't get offended when I play a game like, I don't know, Fallout and I shoot a human being in the head. I don't post on a forum;
BETHESDA DEVELOPERS ALLOW COLD BLOODED MURDER IN THEIR NEW GAME.
Honestly, I feel like people hunt out ways to get offended rather than enjoy a good story. Is there nothing better to do? ...And to immediately ban anyone that has an opinion that isn't getting offended....I honestly thought more of this forum and am willing to go down over this because, I don't want to be a part of a forum that monitors opinions and polices discussion. I don't want to live in a robotic society where developers can't have creative freedom because it offends you. Live a little. Games are meant to be freedom; sexism in real life is a big no no but that doesn't mean you have to hide from it in a work of fiction. Sheesh.
You hit most of the checklist for the common dumb junior post.
At least try to be original.
i think we're talking dozens, maybe hundreds. people know since the announcement if they're gonna buy a game like valkyria chronicles 4, and that whole 3 minutes cutscene is not gonna sway copies.
I know I'm speaking anecdotally, but I've managed to un-sell a bunch of people by sharing this article over social media. This clearly crosses a line for a lot of people.
I'm not far enough into the game to know if this is all part of a redemptive character arc (despite having owned a copy since the initial Japanese release in April...) and I really hope that's the case as there is no real justification for this sort of character otherwise.
I'm also maintaining that the localization amplifies the problem beyond what existed in the original script, which honestly just confounds me.
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Sexism happens in the real world. It just doesn't have a comedy laugh track and upskirt shots while the camera focuses on every young woman's arse as they run while the guys get conveniently baggy trousers. That is where the creatives behind it come in for criticism, not for including a sexist character, but for having it revolve around the tired 'comedic pervert' trope, with no consequences from the officers present beyond a punch and a few weary sighs. This is a world built by creatives where women are superheroes, special forces, generals, military scientists and soldiers, and the treatment of those women, and the direction of the scenes, character design and camerawork, is still based in high-school anime, with sexual assault treated as a minor, amusing character trait on the same level as 'small but eats a lot' or 'grown adult, can't cook'.
It's hilarious that you're defending creativity that leans on the most uncreative, over-used, templated and boring sexualised elements it can find. The treatment of 'racism' in VC1 revolved around characters that had misplaced motivation and vile propaganda behind it, something that plays into the themes and time periods the game leans on. As opposed to just pulling 'comedic pervert' from the blind bag of tropes for use as a bit of comic relief with a laugh track in a game that already treats young women as eyecandy far more than the guys.