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VG247: Valkyria Chronicles 4’s sexual harassment problem is unacceptable in 2018 (READ OP)
- Thread starter Bundy
- Start date
I agree, maybe didnt express myself correctly (just woke up there). It's just its not right to assume one or the other way, we don't really know what goes behind the scenes unless we have claryfing interviews.
What kind of steps can be taken to confront this?
A lost sale doesn't tell the developer anything about why that sale was lost, it's not like they get a report that says "Sold 100,000 copies, but we lost 20,000 sales due to inappropriate content"
I can understand why people might want to skip the game because of this, but overall that's not a productive step in combating this kind of content
I'm just struggling to see what can be done about this kind of thing. Generally whenever it happens in a game I'm playing I just sigh and roll my eyes, as it's always disappointing when a game has this kind of crap, but I don't really see what positive steps we can take to get our views across to the developers and publishers
A lost sale doesn't tell the developer anything about why that sale was lost, it's not like they get a report that says "Sold 100,000 copies, but we lost 20,000 sales due to inappropriate content"
I can understand why people might want to skip the game because of this, but overall that's not a productive step in combating this kind of content
I'm just struggling to see what can be done about this kind of thing. Generally whenever it happens in a game I'm playing I just sigh and roll my eyes, as it's always disappointing when a game has this kind of crap, but I don't really see what positive steps we can take to get our views across to the developers and publishers
After how tone deaf SNK Heroines was, I'm not too surprised. Although, considering how Valkyria Chronicles tackled racism, I would think they were going for the same thing here but just dropped the ball.
Because some developers in Japan want to boost the sales of their game at all costs. For smaler developers or studios inside bigger publishers the success of their game makes or breaks these studios. Console games are declining in sales in japan for years and so they look for an audience that will be somewhat loyal. They've found them, same with many animes.
The whole waifu crap is getting old very fast but many studios lived to see another day thanks to them.
Even Nintendo is doing it with Fire Emblem, Xenoblade Chronicles, etc. especially with their mobile money maker Fire Emblem.
I'm not downplaying the misogyny present in some media. I'm trying to get people to stop insinuating that everyone born into Japanese society is complicit in deviant behaviours by pointing out that western society also has these issues.
While we've talked a lot about the industry in Japan having a background and regular tropes that lead to this shit, I'd just like to mention Raz's character and consequences in the context of the world it's set in. VC is a world where women make up 50% of the military in the lead faction. They are snipers, close-assault specialists, tank crew, artillery, scouts, special forces, navy gunners, officers. It's a world where the super-powered legendary Valkyria that can lay waste to whole armour devisions are exclusively women, and so being a general, a superhero or a lethally capable veteran soldier are all accepted from birth as being something women do. Even in that world, rather than ours, being a sex pest and treating women like pieces of meat is still funny and groanworthy, and female soldiers still get issued combat lingerie.
Is there any actual evidence for this? I'm not calling you our or saying you're wrong, but it seems really odd to me that the sales of some games in Japan will live or die on them having some shitty misogynistic crap in them
Rosie's justification for her racism, combined with the Darcsen myth that justified it nationwide (they are falsely blamed for the loss of the original Valkyria or some other disaster like that as far as I remember), at least gave it an interesting angle that allowed her and Largo to warm up to them as she both spends time with them and realises everything she's been told is a lie. Raz is a sex pest despite having a mother, a female best friend and serving in a mixed-unit military.
This is also why I don't get, as it's simultaneous with VC1, how Raz as a Darcsen gets away with it being handwaved. There must be thousands of people like Rosie who wouldn't blink at the chance to take out their trauma at losing their home on someone like him, it sort-of retroactively defuses a core plot point of VC1 by saying 'no-one cares about that anymore as it was discussed by five soldiers elsewhere in this massive military'.
Your argument kinda fails when many of those are franchises present on handhelds which don't have any decline, including Fire Emblem which in Japan itself sold more than 500k aand that was on 3DS, much like it's sequel. You could see the same thing on 3DS and Vita on many franchises. And even regarding console, Xenoblade 2 did more than 200k on Switch. Also true for Persona 5 with more than 500k, Nier Automata with more than 500k and well, there's examples going on and on. So I don't think it's a good argument when many of those sold very well. Lastly, gaming otaku are since the beginning the people who buy video games in Japan.
And anime do that not because of public but because it's based and many times is funded by companies (publishers in general) of the original source material to promote their work be it manga, Light Novel or whatever it is along other companies as well. It's something that it's happening since Tezuka adapted Astro Boy in the 60s with Tezuka Productions and anime would be changing along the manga that was adapted since then with it being the major influence.
This article contains minor spoilers for Valkyria Chronicles 4.
This year has been defined by the #MeToo movement, and women around the world have been speaking out against decades of sexual harassment, assault, and mistreatment from men in positions of power.
Thanks to countless brave people coming forward and speaking out against such abuses, a worldwide re-examination on sexual misconduct has begun. Unfortunately, it seems Valkyria Chronicles 4 didn't get the memo.
A few hours into the game, the mood within Squad E, the battalion of troops you take charge of throughout the campaign, is jovial. You've just liberated the city of Reine from Imperial forces and are continuing to advance through their territory. Your squad has a chance to relax after a tough battle. Riley, one of the main characters and leading figures within the group, is talking with the commander – a childhood friend called Claude Wallace – about tweaking grenades to give them an edge against the enemy. Raz and Kai – two other characters within your squad who are also childhood friends – are watching this conversation from a distance. Kai's brother left the army and asked their sibling to take their place, so Kai disguised themselves as male and did as their brother asked.
Raz is the stereotypical bad boy. While watching the conversation between Riley and Claude unfold, Kai notes that they sense a void between the two characters. Raz responds by saying that it must be Kai's "women's intuition" kicking in. Kai snipes back, reminding Raz that, in the army, people see them as a man. Raz then stands up, walks behind Kai, and grabs their butt. "No guy's got an ass this tight."
This scene sets the tone for the rest of Valkyria Chronicles 4's campaign. Although the game has a diverse cast of male and female characters with unique personalities, the women on either side of the war are degraded, sexually harassed, and mistreated.For women in this game, a respectful experience is impossible. When they're not being groped by their squad mates, the camera frames them at angles that accentuate their sexual value over their value to the squad. Whenever a character speaks positively of a women's contribution, it's condescending in tone. "At least she's good for something." A women's ability is never given the same level of treatment their technical skills would grant them as a man. At multiple points within the game's script, a woman is not even considered a person – they are merely a possession. After all, "A gentleman shouldn't keep his ladies waiting."
Even worse, the perpetrators of these sexist acts face no punishment. Many times, these moments of degradation occur openly and without shame. No one in the squad is surprised by Raz's derogatory comments towards women when they happen, and often they're allowed to pass without incident.
Upon arriving at the base for the first time, the men stare at a female navy officer while stating their desire to "swab her deck". The response to this is a resigned sigh. There's no comment on the fact these sexual advances may be unwanted.
When you have a game like Valkyria Chronicles 4 that contains a distinct lack of condemnation or consequence for such actions, you are setting a dangerous precedent.It normalises the idea that women are inferior to men, that they exist for male satisfaction, and that unwanted sexual contact should be welcomed and not challenged. Such portrayals make it harder for attitudes towards women to change, even with the pressure of the #MeToo movement shedding light on the issue on a global scale.
More here
Your thoughts?
Wow, I did not know this of all games went to these places. Who and the hell wrote this stuff?
Even though I myself perpetrated the very thing you wanted people to not do (ie. calling Japan sexist culture) I think you have excellent point.
Im having a hard time putting the words to it, but basically western society accepts sexual content as long as it fits the otherwise patriarchal and christian culture, where men can do anything they want and there is an excuse for it, be it comedy, adolescence etc.
God (which there are none) forbid two consenting adult of same sex would have sex. I don't know what the statistics are, but we like to call Japan out on the public harrasment of women and the misogyny within their popular culture. At the same here in Europe and even worse in the United States, if a girl gets raped by a boy and tells this, we try to downplay it simply saying that boys future shouldn't be ruined because of one act. If a woman tells that man raped him ages ago we tell her that why should we ruin a mans life for what happened in history.
There is never a present, past or future where we don't do this to women right now, if things don't change.
One question: How many articles were written in Japanese gaming media about this issue in this game?
Is obviously that this happens in western media, but is being openly confronted, specially in the recent years, with huge resistance true, but people are raising the issue these scenes represent and are making a statement about it. Can you say the same is happening in Japan?
User Banned (1 Week): Ignoring modpost and a history of threadwhining about social issues
I really hope the next Fire Emblem won't have such stuff.
Not because i care. I don't give a damn personally but seeing those talks about the game to talk about social issues, EXCEPT actually the...game, you know?
That is exhausting for me.
I still remember the "Soleil" case for FE Fates that take the news about everything except saying Conquest was one of the best campain in the whole FE saga.
Not because i care. I don't give a damn personally but seeing those talks about the game to talk about social issues, EXCEPT actually the...game, you know?
That is exhausting for me.
I still remember the "Soleil" case for FE Fates that take the news about everything except saying Conquest was one of the best campain in the whole FE saga.
Sorry for the quote....but how can you have a discussion under such condition (threat really)?
Basically a moderator stated that if you don't agree with the OP message or you dismiss it in any way you are banned.
I don't think any changes will be made until it will stop pandering to the otaku crowd in Japan, Some developers probably feel depended on that audience like unfortunately a lot of anime are, and there is the fear of losing them and not gaining it elsewhere (Western audience, different core audience in Japan) despite dragging the medium down.
Don't get me started on Anime as a whole.
I can't read Japanese and have no idea how I would approach finding the things you're inquiring about. I don't know your story but can you say that you know that people in Japan have not written anything opposing misogyny? That seems improbable and again assumes Japan and Japanese people are a single entity that endorses these acts.
Otaku gaming are the most buyers of games on Japan for decades, let's not say otherwise. The children that played games on the 80s and still play to this day are otaku. It's for more than a decade a designation much like nerd here, not the stereotype that you're reinforcing which is a minority of a minority.
Of course not. You won't see that in any media. Why would you see when this is seeing as normal? Even more when the biggest gaming magazines of Japan are published by publishers who have those contents. For example, Famitsu is a magazine published by Enterbrain which is a publisher of Kadokawa which beyond many industries, they're a publisher of manga, LN and also fund anime while also having it's own gaming division called Kadokawa Games.
You probably could see it on twitter or some other place by an progressist japanese but by official media? Not likely at all.
You're new here, so you may not know but yes - that's how it works. Arguing in bad faith or dismissing legitimate and well laid out concerns about social issues in games (like that in the OP) is bannable, as it should be. One of the reasons this community is great.
OT: that is some heinous shit. I don't really recall anything similar in the original either.
So there's no discussion on this topic.
Only the statement of OP and a list of peole agreeing with him (otherwise they are banned).
I think that there is always room for discussion so I find the current rule a bit too strict (I won't use stronger terms).
This is an interesting discussion to have, because I've always wondered where everyone feels the line needs to be drawn.
I ask this mostly because the example in the OP with the female navy officer I don't completely take issue with. He isn't catcalling, but is commenting to a "friend" on it (though in a rather crass way). In reality women do this exact same thing and that's the only issue I take with this scene. You never really see women doing this in video games at all, and it really should be both or none at all.
Now what I do take a huge issue with is the groping in the first example shot in the OP. How things like that make it into games is one to say the very least. It's absolutely disgusting to play sexual assault for laughs, and it hurts even more because Kai is actually a really good character being completely degraded to nothing status for it. Unless these actions are some sort of plot element with actual consequences they should never ever exist in any sort of media. Sorry, a sigh or slap in the face is not good enough.
The downplaying of a woman's usefulness is also shit too. It's something women really deal with everywhere around the world, and seeing it in games today is basically telling me that that company thinks that mindset is ok when it absolutely is not. " Not bad...for a girl" is some ancient shit that I thought we'd be long passed by now, but here we are still seeing it poke it's head out to remind us that it hasn't gone anywhere.
So I guess after typing up a long-winded post I see I'm mostly in agreement with the OP. I only disagree with one thing and even that has some conditions behind it before I find it kind of acceptable.
I ask this mostly because the example in the OP with the female navy officer I don't completely take issue with. He isn't catcalling, but is commenting to a "friend" on it (though in a rather crass way). In reality women do this exact same thing and that's the only issue I take with this scene. You never really see women doing this in video games at all, and it really should be both or none at all.
Now what I do take a huge issue with is the groping in the first example shot in the OP. How things like that make it into games is one to say the very least. It's absolutely disgusting to play sexual assault for laughs, and it hurts even more because Kai is actually a really good character being completely degraded to nothing status for it. Unless these actions are some sort of plot element with actual consequences they should never ever exist in any sort of media. Sorry, a sigh or slap in the face is not good enough.
The downplaying of a woman's usefulness is also shit too. It's something women really deal with everywhere around the world, and seeing it in games today is basically telling me that that company thinks that mindset is ok when it absolutely is not. " Not bad...for a girl" is some ancient shit that I thought we'd be long passed by now, but here we are still seeing it poke it's head out to remind us that it hasn't gone anywhere.
So I guess after typing up a long-winded post I see I'm mostly in agreement with the OP. I only disagree with one thing and even that has some conditions behind it before I find it kind of acceptable.
Best bet is to pm a mod if you don't like it rather than discuss mod/admin actions.
What are you looking to disagree with exactly? I'm not seeing much value in defending this game's shamelessness in passing off some toxic attitudes for a laugh, and I don't see much value in defending Japan's toxic treatment of women in media which is all too prevalent.
Ask a mod if you're scared about the wiggle room, but this isn't really the topic that really warrants much of it considering how little this game is interested in hiding its beliefs.
Devs read feedback like this on major forums. Make enough fuss and they will take notice, especially if they see it being a reason many people are skipping the game.
And if sexual harassment & assault are what SEGA wants to go with in these games, I don't particularly care if it's efficient in making a change. I'll just skip these games. No biggie. There are 50 other recent games I could be playing that don't have this issue.
Speaking as someone who works very closely with customers and audiences, if you really want this to change, the best way to address it is to challenge SEGA on their social media spaces and write a letter of complaint, you can find all of SEGA's customer services emails around the world here
http://www.sega.co.uk/support
I've emailed them for what it's worth, but flagging it on social media or getting people who are active on social media to amplify this is the best way to go. SEGA in the West will eventually have to address this and the bigger the noise the bigger the chance they will end up feeding back to SEGA Japan and the developers.
The viewpoint characters we are standing with as it happens view it as funny and inevitable rather than disgusting. That's the problem.
It's also the developers having their cake and eating it- for all that Raz grabs their arse and gets decked for it, the female leads are also depicted in tight leggings showing off their arse to the player as they run, in a way that the male soldiers don't due to baggy combats.
While Raz might get punched for it, the game's director also goes to a lot of effort to frame the women's arses at any given opportunity, it's treated as jokey fun to be dealt with by a punch as even his 'good guy' CO doesn't care enough to discipline him for it, and the game even undermines the whole thing by treating the women as eye candy far more than the guys. The punch is literally a punchline to a tired skit, not the game saying 'this crap really isn't ok', as otherwise we'd see Claude actually do something about it.
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I think the biggest problem is that (regardless of if it's portrayed as acceptable or not) the consequences do not match the actions. Even then most of it would kind of be in poor taste.
There are people disagreeing with the OP in this thread and yet not banned, and saying that there's no discussion in this topic feels disingenuous considering that right in this very page there are members debating with each other.
And really, what kind of fruitful discussion do you think could be had with people who "dismiss sexism" or "complain about outrage culture"? What kind of a fruitful discussion could be had with people who from the get go considers that things we are criticizing don't actually exist, or that we are lying about our feelings?
This thread is 17 pages long. Discussion is allowed, just not the "U R all just too PC" and "this isn't sexist" and "Y R U so triggered" kind.
Well there is literally 17 pages of it. Discussion is one thing but these topics - here and everywhere - attract a certain type of poster whose notion of "discussion" is really just a veiled attempt to dismiss a very legitimate concern, often pertaining to a marginalized group.
Anyways I'm being drawn into backseat modding. As has been pointed out, I'd PM a mod for further concerns.
This is really disappointing. I don't remember the first one to be like this (never played 2 and 3).
Not sure if I'm going to pick this up now.
Not sure if I'm going to pick this up now.
Bottomline issue is Japanese devs have found catering to the creeps is how to make the most cash and Japanese society seemingly rather want to ignore this than confront it. Until Japan actually sets the foot down(Don't hold your breath) it wont change.
The first one's main adoption of tired tropes was that the female leads were in short skirts and stockings for trench warfare. VC4's adoption of them is both 'the comedic pervert' and 'the tsundere slap' in the first few chapters. It makes VC1 look positively benign in comparison.
I can't disagree with this statement, although it seems like they know that it's wrong it seems like they just accept that the guy is an idiot instead of doing something about it.
That may be true for some western companies since there's some developers here but I wouldn't say that for japanese companies.
I'm not saying the Japanese society endorses it, but I think the argument of "this also happens in western media" is not a valid one. What matters is if people are starting to stand against it, publicly both by a good percentage of users and gaming journalists. That is starting to happen in the west, I don't see that happening in Japan as far as I know.
Not saying that Japanese sees this kind of behavior OK, but rather if they are openly confrontational against it. And all signs points to no. So while they might not endorse it, apathy against it allows to this toxic culture to keep it relevant in their media and society.
I always wonder how much influence Raita has as the character artist, or who specifically is pushing the series in this direction given I really don't remember it being this bad in VC1.
I mean you don't go from drawing porn to not without having a bit of that influence how you visualize your characters.
I mean you don't go from drawing porn to not without having a bit of that influence how you visualize your characters.
I found it funny. He gets what he deserves for his action
I think it's good to have these threads and this debate, but we're a forum of 40,000 people, so even if we all condemn it to the hilt, we are a small group that don't necessarily represent the greater game buying market.
Basically we're not a big enough group to really influence a publisher in any way that would cause them to change the way they develop games
I understand why you want to skip the game, and I'm not judging anyone that does skip it, I was just saying that in itself doesn't send a coherent message to the developer (which is fine, as it's cool to just skip it because you don't want to engage with that kind of content, but I'm specifically interested in what we can do to confront this kind of thing)
Yeah I think this is a good idea, as even if it's only a few thousand people it might help give some perspective or at least communicate there are people who find this kind of thing pretty cringe-worthy
On the whole? They're depicted as absolute equals in battle in every respect, as well as in the chain of command. They get the same wide variety of personalities as the male characters, and the notable women are portrayed as badasses same as the guys. They all wear the same battle gear. The only overarching trope I can think of that falls against the women is that the squad nurse is a total stereotype.
Instant karma/punishment is served against the perpetrator. I'm not encouraging this type of content. Seriously. If Sega had bothered to stop for 2 seconds to think through the situation they'd just exclude this crap, and pressure should be put upon them as such. The character involved is an irredeemable jackass, unfortunately, though this character pair does have a rather touching moment in the following chapter. To put this all another way, I'm not letting this incident ruin the entire game for me.
Well I ain't played the full game but it was sure in the demo quite a few times.