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Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
The idea of the thread is that they should be better though.


Like I said, the idea is that Nintendo should be better. We aren't talking about chances. Do you think people don't know? This isn't about trying to prove why the status quo is the way it is, it's pointing out issues with it and asking for change towards something better. If you want to support the status quo fine, but it's a bad look when you're so resistant to the idea of diversity.

And yes, I know Nintendo designs games with Japan in mind. That was implied. I'm saying that they don't solely develop for Japan. They sell games to a worldwide market. We're not importing games that were never meant to leave the Japanese market. There are literally Nintendo games that were made to appeal more to the West.

... I don't want to support the status quo or I'm against diversity just because I'm showing why that happens and why I think that won't change. Just because I'm on the contrary argument don't mean that I think on that way like you suggest. I'm not going to be asking for it like people do, but at the same time, if it happens I won't be against it at all. I have a background of comics and I couldn't care less if a black person became Iron Man or if a woman became Thor in the comics even years ago.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,371
Yet Marina and all inklings and octolings have human shapes with human like skin and live in a very human-like culture with human like buildings and human like technology and human like sensibilities.

I think you're being disingenuous in saying non-human characters that are glorified humans with wigs don't count for representation when the context of the game presents them as the stand in for humanity, Marina is totally coded as a black character, and trying to disqualify her on grounds of the game lore she is a humanoid octopus is kinda silly.

Also: Fun fact: Marvel in the real world successfully legally argued "mutants" from their comics weren't human beings in order to classify X-men toys as "non-human characters" to reduce production costs.
Marina isn't coded as anything.

Someone like Misango you could say is coded as Mayan/Aztec. Because it has real world influences.

The Inklings are skin color options, but it's not related to any culture or race. Can you say a dark inkling is definitely Asian, black, latino, or native american? no, you can't
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Yeah he's wrong OoT is pretty explict that the Gerudo are influnced by middle eastern/islamic cultures. Gerudo symbols is similar to the islamic star and cresent. There was an islamic prayer that was removed due to controversy and the gerudo women look like this

49d249e7271a84f88354504c50b844c6.png


I'm not sure how anyone imply that gerudo weren't explicitly influenced by middle eastern cultures.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
She's only 'black' in skin color. Not race. They act like humans through imitation like them worshipping the fax machine.

Let me ask you a question, if a kid playing splatoon said something like "i like Marina because she's black like me", would you tell them "no she's not, she's an octopus!"

Would you tell a little black girl whose fave Steven Universe character is Garnet "she's not black, she's a space rock!"

Would you tell David Cage his civil rights allegory doesn't count as black because it's a robot?

yes i added the david cage example for comedy purposes
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I'd say every company (Nintendo in this case) has been terrible with representation with POC, it's super stupid they're aren't more in western games. For heaven's sake games like cyberpunk that take place in the future practically have no Asians.

Nintendo is getting better with it as people are pointing out but in my opinion the worst offenders are western game devs.
Cyberpunk 2077, the game that isn't out yet? It has an entire district (6 overall) that's a mix of different Asian cultures. Another district that has Japantown. But we of course haven't seen that yet, hopefully they do good job. I also disagree with Western games being the ones lacking more representation, not to say they couldn't improve as they could. But I'm also willing to give any studio bit more slack depending their own surroundings. In that sense I wouldn't be as harsh on Japanese studio than American studio in example for lacking diversity in representation.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/cyberpunk-2077s-night-city-consists-of-six-distric/1100-6459846/
 
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Sonicsuper1

Banned
Sep 25, 2018
9
I don't know why you mentioned that you are mixed race. It doesn't change my argument against what you have said.

No one is pointing a gun to developers' heads like "make him brown if you want to live!" Of course developers have their freedom to make what they want. Except when they don't. Games make decisions based on marketing all the time and what they think their demographic will want. You think no white, male protagonist has ever been "forced" because the devs wanted to have a relatable main character to sell the game with? Why is that ok but people wanting diversity is bizarre and wrong? In a perfect world, devs would do what they want and we'd have decent diversity but that's not how things work in the real world and they aren't just going to change by doing nothing. People actually have to say something. Why get in the way of people saying what they want? Why are you so resistant to the idea of more diversity?


Give a black man an inch and he'll take a mile, right? Black people will just never be happy no matter how many black characters we give them so we should just not try to be better. I don't think I need to explain why this is a problematic approach you're taking here.

You asked what about Asian people. You're deflecting. When a minority brings up an issue, it's not uncommon for people to nitpick and bring up the other minorities they did not bring up to discredit their point. "Black History Month? What about Asian History Month? Isn't that important too? You don't care about women or LGBTQ? They're minorities too!" Look, black people should not have to bring up every minority that exists just to say they'd like to see more black protagonists in their games. They aren't saying there doesn't need to be more Indian or Southeast Asian or Native American characters. You're requiring this big burden of a qualifier for people to simply say they want to see more representation for people like them in the media they enjoy.

Apparently wanting that is bizarre to you. It's bizarre to be a little kid and all your favorite cartoons and games barely have people that look like you in them. And when they do show up, they're usually stereotypes or not important. Usually they're comic relief or they're bad guys. And that's just when they actually exist. It's bizarre to feel left out a bit, like you don't matter when you're just a kid experiencing this. When you wish that there was someone in one of these things you like that made you feel normal, like you belonged, it's bizarre. It's bizarre.

I can't be bothered to have massive strings of arguments where the original point is lost.

So lets have a look at some of the latest offerings in Nintendo franchises:

Pokemon: Protagonist can be black. Has black gym leaders. Hau and Prof Kukui are essentially mixed race. This is one, if not their biggest franchise, a mainline Pokemon.

Mario: 0 new human characters in Odyssey.

Zelda: The only human champion is a middle eastern woman. Every other prominent character was previously established in other games.

Splatoon: Nintendo's most succesful new IP in ages. When did they have a new IP do this well? In the sequel they decide to make one of the mascots black. The Inklings can be black.

Fire Emblem: Not many minority characters.

Xenoblade: Not many.

Sushi Striker: General Kodiak.

ARMS: Plenty of characters of different racial backgrounds.

Metroid: The majority of games only have Samus in them.

So we have Xenoblade and Fire Emblem being poor in representation. Especially with such large casts of characters. Splatoon and ARMS two of their latest franchises have black characters. Pokemon has black characters. Mario has no new characters. Zelda had Urbosa. Metroid for the most part only has one character.

All of these games are on Switch or will be soon. Sure, the black gym leaders are from Sun/Moon, but you'll be able to have a black avatar. So 2 out of 9 games are poor for diversity. 2 out of 9 games rarely introduce new human characters. Then 5 out of 9 had someone who is not white playing a major role. 4 of those 5 featuring black male characters.

If you think that's bad representation I don't know what to do or say. Nintendo rarely introduce new characters for some of these franchises. I could throw in Animal Crossing as well as it is inevitable they will let your character be black. What can Nintendo do?
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Cyberpunk 2077, the game that isn't out yet? It has an entire district (6 overall) that's a mix of different Asian cultures. Another district that has Japantown.
There was also a thread on here about a taxi driver being South Asian lol. So that game does have Asians in it.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Marina isn't coded as anything.
Someone like Misango you could say is coded as Mayan/Aztec. Because it has real world influences.

The Inklings are skin color options, but it's not related to any culture or race. Can you say a dark inkling is definitely Asian, black, latino, or native american? no, you can't
Might was argue characters in lord of the rings aren't black or white because they exist in fantasy world of middle earth. When people talk about black they're referring to skin color and appearance.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Let me ask you a question, if a kid playing splatoon said something like "i like Marina because she's black like me", would you tell them "no she's not, she's an octopus!"

Would you tell a little black girl whose fave Steven Universe character is Garnet "she's not black, she's a space rock!"

Would you tell David Cage his civil rights allegory doesn't count as black because it's a robot?

yes i added the david cage example for comedy purposes

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, even if it's a joke.

Might was argue characters in lord of the rings aren't black or white because they exist in fantasy world of middle earth. When people talk about black they're referring to skin color and appearance.

Which is a problem in of itself.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,371
Let me ask you a question, if a kid playing splatoon said something like "i like Marina because she's black like me", would you tell them "no she's not, she's an octopus!"

Would you tell a little black girl whose fave Steven Universe character is Garnet "she's not black, she's a space rock!"

Would you tell David Cage his civil rights allegory doesn't count as black because it's a robot?

yes i added the david cage example for comedy purposes

They can say what they want. That's what's good about skin color options.

What if a little girl says "I like Marina because she's black like me"
then another says "I like Marina because she's Indian like me"
another "I like Marina because she's latina like me"
And so on. Would you say, "no she's black".

skin color options are broad so that everyone can feel a level of representation. Since it's up to interpretation.
She can be nothing and everything at the same time.
She's not specifically one thing.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
They can say what they want. That's what's good about skin color options.

What if a little girl says "I like Marina because she's black like me"
then another says "I like Marina because she's Indian like me"
another "I like Marina because she's latina like me"
And so on. Would you say, "no she's black".

skin color options are broad so that everyone can feel a level of representation. Since it's up to interpretation.
She can be nothing and everything at the same time.
She's not specifically one thing.

Well for starters i would say that you can be latina AND black those aren't mutually exclusive things (and her names IS Marina in the west after all), but Marina's perceived blackness is beyond her skin color, like people have pointed out multiple times in the thread Splatoon takes a lot of inspiration on AA culture with a dash of japanese Shibuya culture, you can make a better argument for Marina being Black than any other racial make up because of the context she's inserted into.
 

Donkeykwon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
113
I would be wary of asking a Japanese entertainment company to portray black male characters. They don't have the best track record:

latest
One-Punch-Man-S1E10-Genos-and-Superalloy-Blackluster-e1474967289108.jpg
 
May 21, 2018
289
Baltimore MD
it is their duty to investors to make decisions based off of whether they can profit or not, they are Nintendo not a small indie studio. It basically has to be a part of the equation. Why not? Because of their wallet, even if people in Nintendo want think it should be a think it won't until they can justify the investment. Hence no beautiful jew hair that would hard and more expensive to program

What I'm getting at is the idea as a whole is flawed. If the answer you give to the fact I'm broken up over the lack of representation is to tell me that the investors can't make a use case for it. Then it's broken from the bottom up. You don't have to be an indie studio to know there are multitude of ethnic backgrounds that are not your own. What This thread (at least I hope) is getting at, is the sever under representation that PoC face, and more to the point Black people have been feeling for far to long. We are not being seen or heard, and it's why the representation matters from small indie teams all the way up to companies like Nintendo. There is a burden that comes with being in the public eye, there is more attention and care that has to be given. You want to keep getting my dollars, then start crafting characters and stories I can identify with. I'm at a legit loss for how to respond to the hair being hard or more expensive to program. It just rings of that nonsense that surrounded Assasins Creed a while back where they couldn't model women. FOH with that noise.
 
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HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
It's not a problem at all, unless you want video game characters to be racial stereotypes which is is honestly seems like what some are arguing for.

This isn't about 'racial stereotypes' and it's really annoying that people think someone in media can't be black without stereotypes. This is the reason why Black Pathern is beloved. It showed the good and the bad of being black, and not just African-Americans.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
This isn't about 'racial stereotypes' and it's really annoying that people think someone in media can't be black without stereotypes. This is the reason why Black Pathern is beloved. It showed the good and the bad of being black, and not just African-Americans.
Tell me how a character can be black in media without looking black. You made this point I want you to tell me what you consider a black person in media actually is?
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
I would be wary of asking a Japanese entertainment company to portray black male characters. They don't have the best track record:

latest

This is why DB needs to bring back Uub, he was the only black character they ever had that wasn't embarrassing.

Even the more dignified one off black fighters had slightly problematic designs.

I used to think Captain Falcon was black.

They technically could make F-zero games where he is black because in previous games they have established the title Captain Falcon is a mantle that can be passed.
 
Aug 29, 2018
1,089
What I'm getting at is the idea as a hole is flawed. If the answer you give to the fact I'm broken up over the lack of representation is to tell me that the investors can't make a use case for it. Then it's broken from the bottom up. You don't have to be an indie studio to know there are multitude of ethnic backgrounds that are not your own. What This thread (at least I hope) is getting at, is the sever under representation that PoC face, and more to the point Black people have been feeling for far to long. We are not being seen or heard, and it's why the representation matters from small indie teams all the way up to companies like Nintendo. There is a burden that comes with being in the public eye, there is more attention and care that has to be given. You want to keep getting my dollars, then start crafting characters and stories I can identify with. I'm at a legit loss for how to respond to the hair being hard or more expensive to program. It just rings of that nonsense that surrounded Assasins Creed a while back where they couldn't model women. FOH with that noise.

I mean agree with all of that it is a problem in a lot of industries right now. They will want to see it succeed in smaller investments first before being able to pitch it to the board for their 100mil investment. There is no moral burden on a corporation. It is just reality

personally between black panther and mafia 3 you'd think that there has been enough commercial precedent for the fact that a whole lot of people like diversity, but even that is likely to be taken as "oh we need more black man protagonists" which might annoy like an Indian guy who thinks they missed the message who knows lol

Not happy my jew curls aren't in games, understand why. Demand for better looking women came, demand for more accurate Jewish curls in character customization hasn't been that loud quite frankly hahaha
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
This is why DB needs to bring back Uub, he was the only black character they ever had that wasn't embarrassing.

Even the more dignified one off black fighters had slightly problematic designs.
Sorry to break it you. But Uub is Indian/South Asian lol

Dude is from the same village as Nam.
latest
 

PsionBolt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,299
How would people feel about a black male mario character in the style of mario or luigi.
If he comes with a blue hat, sign me up! So we can kick Blue Toad out of the multiplayer games forever.

But in all seriousness: even if he's not a protagonist, it'd be a great boon for Mario Kart / Party / etc. to have a bit more variety in the human roster.
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Correct me if im wrong, but wasn't this debunked? i think it frequently has come up in DBFZ threads.
I'm pretty sure in either the end of Z or beginning of GT they show Nam's village when Goku goes back with Uub to train.

I would be wary of asking a Japanese entertainment company to portray black male characters. They don't have the best track record:

One-Punch-Man-S1E10-Genos-and-Superalloy-Blackluster-e1474967289108.jpg

The guy from OPM is an Asian guy who's just really tanned. Black face and all which is a separate issue/problem.

4s7ywaimlre11.jpg
 
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Apr 25, 2018
269
Not Nintendo but how does Lee from the Walking Dead rate as a protagonist?

Sounds like some of you might enjoy the Rivers of London books - fantasy books set in modern day London with a black male police officer as the lead pov character
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
I'm pretty sure in either the end of Z or beginning of GT they show Nam's village when Goku goes back with Uub to train.

Frankly I need to check that again, because i don't really remember it happening like that but admit it could have been like that.

Need to check specifically end of Z, i do remember GT starts with Goku already training with Uub at Kami's temple.
 

HeroR

Banned
Dec 10, 2017
7,450
Tell me how a character can be black in media without looking black. You made this point I want you to tell me what you consider a black person in media actually is?

They're black people in real life that don't look black, so what are you asking? There are books about black people passing as white because they're that pale including a real life story of a woman escaping slavery with their lover by passing as a crippled white woman.

'Black', is a culture along as a race which differs depending on what culture you're talking about. Like Africa culture isn't Africa-American culture despite it all falling under 'black'.
 

Chalphy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,561
There's a lot of work to do, but Nintendo's newest IP has a bit more diversity than usual. Below is one of the main characters in the story.
Ranzal_01.png
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
They're black people in real life that don't look black, so what are you asking? There are books about black people passing as white because they're that pale including a real life story of a woman escaping slavery with their lover by passing as a crippled white woman.

'Black', is a culture along as a race which differs depending on what culture you're talking about. Like Africa culture isn't Africa-American culture despite it all falling under 'black'.
What do you mean exactly by don't look black? Black doesn't just mean african there's reason we're using the term black in this discussion rather than anything else. There's a large variety in what a "black" person looks like because that terms describes over a billion people. Black is not a culture. africa has hundreds of completely different cultures. So your argument makes little sense.

You not telling what you consider black to be here. how would you determine whether any particular videogame character is black or not.
 
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Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I would be wary of asking a Japanese entertainment company to portray black male characters. They don't have the best track record:

latest
One-Punch-Man-S1E10-Genos-and-Superalloy-Blackluster-e1474967289108.jpg
I think it was last years Tokyo Game Show and Sony's showing, but there was also a pitch black figure with big red lips that turned into an afro for a bald character. I was bit baffled since I really didn't see it called out. I was watching it with EZA, only one of them got really uncomfortable and commented on it under his breath. Don't mean to take any shots at the guys, but they seemed oblivious to it and were just laughing. It bothered me for a long time until I finally brought it up in the EZA thread (like months later atleast). Can't remember what game it was. But I didn't see any heated discussion about it at ERA that I would expect to happen. As how does Sony highlight such a game.

Edit: Sorry I misremembered, lips weren't red but white. But doesn't change my point, I still thought it was a racist stereotype.
 
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Billy Awesomo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,768
New York, New York
Hmm black Nintendo Characters I can think of off the top of my head are mostly from their sports games.

Punch-Out_ARC_Piston_Hurricane_banner.png

There is the black dude from 1080 and Wave Race who's name I don't remember
images
 

Donkeykwon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
113
I'm pretty sure in either the end of Z or beginning of GT they show Nam's village when Goku goes back with Uub to train.



The guy from OPM is an Asian guy who's just really tanned. Black face and all which is a separate issue/problem.

4s7ywaimlre11.jpg

Wow, I didn't know that about the OPM character. That is way more problematic and a common problem in Japanese media. https://www.vox.com/2015/3/17/8230783/japan-racism-blackface. All the more reason why I'd be weary of any Nintendo Japan studio handling a male black character. I think Retro would be the only Nintendo developer I would trust to portray diversity since they're based out of Austin and would at least know which minefields to avoid.
 

greenwell

Member
Jan 12, 2018
461
The only ones I can think off the top of my head is Pokemon. Marshal, Kiawe, and Grant are black dudes, and the playable character can be black. Heck, they even added cornrows and braids in Sun and Moon. Pokemon (overall) is Nintendo's best franchise when it comes to racial diversity.

Also Splatoon. Anyone saying different either doesn't understand coding or is being deliberately obtuse because Marina is definitely black and the playable inkling/octolings could be customized to be black too. Not only that the games (especially Splatoon 2) as a whole has a lot of influence from black culture from the slang to the fashion to the music in the games.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Wow, I didn't know that about the OPM character. That is way more problematic and a common problem in Japanese media. https://www.vox.com/2015/3/17/8230783/japan-racism-blackface. All the more reason why I'd be weary of any Nintendo Japan studio handling a male black character. I think Retro would be the only Nintendo developer I would trust to portray diversity since they're based out of Austin and would at least know which minefields to avoid.

the fuck are you talking about? ARMS has a diverse cast and it was by the mario kart team
 

Nitpicker_Red

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,282
Sorry, as this is off-topic compared to the thread's main topic, but as a reaction to this:
Marina isn't coded as anything.
Just to be sure, Marina is not the player character, but that one (in-game appearances):
Marina.png
Marina_Octo_Expansion_DJ_E_DA.png
Iida (japanese name) a.k.a DJ E-DA → DJ Hyperfresh in english
And her concept art / promo arts is looking like this:
In japan, they even had holographic concerts
And just like this user said:
A dark skinned DJ living in a place with a racial make up made mostly by a race that has prejudice against her own isn't coded?
Due to the lore of the first game in which Octolings were "the enemy race", there is still a background of prejudice and "blending in" and immigrating towards better conditions present in the sequel's lore and DLC story.
 
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Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,344
Because this problem exist within video game industry as a whole on so many levels. From Naughty Dog hiring white actors to voice characters that are PoC to publishers refusing to publish a game purely on the basis the main character is not white thus won't sell.

By all means Nintendo is just as bad in this department but they aren't the only guilty party.
Agreed with the above. My example, however, was Animal Crossing - Nintendo's take on a life sim that even in 2013 or whenever New Leaf was released did now allow one to make their avatar non-white. Can you imagine the uproar if The Sims didn't allow us to choose skin colour?
 

zenspider

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
1,583
Come on, really? That's ridiculous. You want to elaborate on how I'm asking for that?

Well, you seem to think that by entering a global marketplace, Nintendo should adhere to the norms and values of the dominant culture in that marketplace. It's pretty straightforward.


Why does a black protagonist in a Japanese game have to be about the black experience in Japan? Why does it have to be filled with stereotypes and regurgitated tropes? They don't. They simply do no have to be like that.

Why wouldn't it be that way? You're example of Mario is exactly that.

You know what you're doing? These are problems that you have come up with on your own to deny any reason for why it should happen.

Your idea of a black experience in Japan is a limited and demanding context that you have created. A lofty goal that not many games would be able to reach. And you've done it to deny the concept of more significant black representation in Japanese games. Mario is an Italian plumber and his games are sure not about the Italian experience in Japan. Yet it seems it's only when black characters come into the picture that they need to be done a certain way in order for it to be justified. To you we would only want, no we should only have a black protagonist in the game if there's a big cultural justifier in place. The character can simply be black and be a character just like all the other characters they have. There doesn't need to be this big justification.

As for Western tropes and stereotypes? Why would it be that way? Again, you've created a context where the worst possible scenario occurs, Nintendo creates an IP with a black protagonist and they're just this stereotypical, tropey mess of what they think a Black person is. Why is there any reason to believe this has to be the case? There isn't but if it was, then it would be a reason to justify not having prominent black characters in any games. Like I said, the character can simply be a character.

What I really want to know is why you're so resistant to the idea. To the simply concept of people asking for it.
I'm not resistant to the idea of black protagonists all.

I do believe it should be a meaningful narrative choice, though I also agree that it can be meaningful by being or replacing the default/tabula rasa skin tone as well... ...but! I don't find the arguments for it compelling enough to wonder why Nintendo doesn't do that more*.

If it really doesn't matter what color the skin is, if it may as well be black - that cuts both ways. It equally may as well not be. I think it would be great too, but I think a compelling argument needs to be made before we start telling people what to do in the creative space.

*I feel like the second I mention Marina from Splatoon 2, I'm going to be held to a different standard, because that sounds like exactly what you are asking for.

I might be getting my arguments crossed here, so I'd appreciate your thoughts on Marina.

Did I ever say I can't relate to a character or game if they aren't representing the exact same race as me? I think this is not relevant to the actual discussion.

I'm getting my wires crossed here. That's my bad, and not relevant to your argument. It is relevant to the discussion, because at some point we have to address why kinds of representation are meaning and necessary.
 

Eta

Banned
May 28, 2018
61
User Banned (Permanent): Downplaying diversity and inclusivity efforts; characterizing the existence of minorities as a political statement. Junior account.
Nintendo's goal is to make good games, not political statements.
 

zenspider

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
1,583
I really don't need to, because the fact that you keep going on and on about there needing to be a reason for a protagonist to be black really just says everything right there.

That reason cuts both ways. If it may as well be, it also may as well not be. There should be a good enough reason to compel someone to make that choice one way or the other.