VG247: Valkyria Chronicles 4’s sexual harassment problem is unacceptable in 2018 (READ OP)

Acido · Sep 25, 2018

You can include sexual assault and harassment in media in many ways that paint it as vile. Catering to the male gaze is not one of those ways, no matter how many times you "punish" your creepy character or how his arch redeems him. What this game shows is unacceptable no matter how you look at it.

Dark Cloud · Sep 25, 2018

KRBM said:
I'm talking about averages. You know, sociology 101.

You can comment without the snark.

BBboy20 · Sep 25, 2018

Glio said:
I would not say it with those words but Japan is not exactly a very feminist country.

East Asia needs a feminist revolution.

Curufinwe · Sep 25, 2018

Mudo said:
Wow I was considering buying this but DAMN the OP details are disgusting. How anyone would ever think these views are ok and perfectly fine to put in their game is beyond me

You know that some people feel the views of the character you picked for your avatar are disgusting, right?

HyGogg · Sep 25, 2018

Scuffed said:
I agree with this. You can show distasteful acts if the character is treated as a piece of shit by everyone else in the game.

Or even if they're not if it's presented in a way that's self aware and trusts the viewer to understand that this is wrong.

American Psycho is about a character who rapes and murders women for the entire story and suffers exactly zero consequences from anyone ever, but it trusts the viewer to understand the way this makes a statement about misogyny and toxic masculinity in society in a way that would be undermined if Bateman "got what he deserved."

The message is what matters. Getting too hung up on the particulars outside of a discussion of that message is losing the forest for the trees.

Derrick01 · Sep 25, 2018

Poutine Runner 2049 said:
Doesn't she slap him to the ground as soon as he grabs her ass therefore establishing what he did was wrong and unacceptable? Not to mention their squad cheers her on for standing up for herself.

Oh look another misleading OP meant to drum up outrage so people who were never going to buy the game anyway can come in and get on their moral high ground by claiming they're not buying the game.

I don't even watch anime and even I know this is the most cliched way these things handle someone being a perv.

Lant_War · Sep 25, 2018

Damn, I'm not too far in the first one but it doesn't seem to have anything as gross as this. Why?

Spinluck · Sep 25, 2018

Vela said:
Do Japanese men hate women that much?

I feel like they need to do away with a lot of the pervy culture that's in a lot of their media.

That can be a start.

Ferrs · Sep 25, 2018

HyGogg said:
In fairness to VC4, the character is treated as a lech by the other characters, and goes through something of a redemption arc.

I think we need to get away from thinking fiction shouldn't ever show negative behaviors in its protagonists. Simply describing the actions of characters is not in and of itself a very compelling argument to me. Which is not to say there's absolutely nothing problematic about it, but that this article does a poor job of getting at that by simply treating its characters as a mirror on their authors in a way that feels disingenuous.

Although I agree, it would be cool if we could have other negative behaviour that doesnt involve denigrating female characters. Its just too common with japanese games, always using female characters to make men improve.

Ichi · Sep 25, 2018

HardRojo said:
Japan has a huge problem with this shit and it seems like the country is most of the time unaware of what's going on in the rest of the world, as far as movements such us #MeToo are concerned. Something major needs to happen over there for this normalization to finally start changing. This is a country that still shamelessly sexualizes minors to some degree... which is very deplorable.

True. The objectification of women is astounding in Japanese media. It isn't creepy it's just normal for them. Women are subservient or whatever. MGS, for all its worth, is also a prime suspect of these things. Idk how or why they think it's okay and it's just "for fun". Cindy from FFXV as well. Like, is there at least one person in every anime or video game team that's pervy and creepy that they let this slide?

KRBM · Sep 25, 2018

jackissocool said:
How hard would it be to have the dude sexually harass someone then get yelled at by everyone and formally reprimanded then learn his lesson and it don't happen again? That would be a small, meaningful story that would positively contribute to the conversation.

2020: this scenario in an American indie game
2022: this scenario in a Western big budget game
Never: this scenario in a Japanese game

Narumi · Sep 25, 2018

Right. Lemme chip in with some thoughts.

Apart from like one response in this thread, most of the replies here seem to be the byproduct of outrage culture or being mad for the sake of being mad. In the actual context of the scene, the action is depicted as a negative action and one that should be frowned upon. It's a character flaw and not glorified sexism.

Secondly I really dislike the casual diet racist comments here on how it's common in Japan and Japanese media as such with such a sweeping generalization. I thought ERA was better than this. Flaws exist yes, but we shouldn't be fine combing every single damned thing and getting outraged at minor things like these since it ultimately does injustice to actual movements to combat what is a real thing.

Take it easy, people.

Jarmel · Sep 25, 2018

FiXalaS said:
(But I agree that ass grabbing is too much, I never saw an anime with an ass grab so it is probably too much even for anime)

Darling in the FranXX

BRSxIgnition · Sep 25, 2018

It was a bad look in Persona 5 and it's a bad look here, but the first game had a racist in Rosie (and to a lesser extent Largo) and though it was ignored at first in the story, their development was treated really well later on when they realized the error of their ways and became better people for it.

Yes, Raz is an asshole for doing that in the first place and it's meant to be uncomfortable - much like when Rosie said she wouldn't work with a darcsen - but until its confirmed to never be dealt with by the time the credits roll, I feel like this is a bad faith argument meant to drum up clicks.

ASaiyan · Sep 25, 2018

Gross. "Unacceptable" is the first and last word for the depicted behaviors. The fact that we are still talking about things this overt in 2018 is galling.

Is it really so hard to respect women? Is it not literally easier to treat women as equal persons, than it is to go out of your way to create scenes showing them being disrespected? I really don't understand people sometimes.

Deleted member 12009 · Sep 25, 2018

julian said:
He's not even the wacky pervert trope. He's just an asshole (at least in the demo).

Cause cutscenes are skippable and the gameplay should hold up.

Wouldn't have been enough if I'd known it was just going to be so stupid.

Glio · Sep 25, 2018

It is likely that the gesture is for us to see that the character is an asshole and then have a arc in which he becomes a better person.

What worries me is that probably his previous attitude will not be taken as seriously as it should be.

NewDonkStrong · Sep 25, 2018

BocoDragon said:
An ass grabbing scene actually seems beyond the typical type of anime/Japan sexism to me. That's pretty crass.

The country where men groping women on trains was tolerated for decades?

FakePlasticTree · Sep 25, 2018

b00_thegh0st said:
So, as a woman, you need to put yourself in physical danger to obtain respect from your male comrades? Sounds like a cool message to send to young female vg players.

To be fair, Claude did the same thing for Raz in a flashback, as the latter didn't respect him either when he first heard he was to be his Commander. Doesn't execuse the scene but it does emphasize on Raz' overall knucklehead attitude, and it's not just the women he's being a bellend towards. He doesn't grab the men by the ass though, but that's part of that outdated masculine personality he has, probably meant to reflect the time period, and he does get comeuppance for it. Not unlike Yosuke's treatment of Kanji in Persona 4, just to make a comparison, whose treatment towards Kanji is never met with disdain.

Deleted member 12009 · Sep 25, 2018

Narumi said:
Right. Lemme chip in with some thoughts.

Apart from like one response in this thread, most of the replies here seem to be the byproduct of outrage culture or being mad for the sake of being mad. In the actual context of the scene, the action is depicted as a negative action and one that should be frowned upon. It's a character flaw and not glorified sexism.

Secondly I really dislike the casual diet racist comments here on how it's common in Japan and Japanese media as such with such a sweeping generalization. I thought ERA was better than this. Flaws exist yes, but we shouldn't be fine combing every single damned thing and getting outraged at minor things like these since it ultimately does injustice to actual movements to combat what is a real thing.

Take it easy, people.

It's played for laughs. Come on, this isn't outright condemnation- it's just his kooky personality that the others have to tolerate for the luls.

Elfforkusu · Sep 25, 2018

In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters exhibit sexist attitudes and behaviors that would not be acceptable in 2018.

Mifec · Sep 25, 2018

Vela said:
Do Japanese men hate women that much?

Japanese culture is trash. Being anything that's not traditional as in being trans or gay gets you labeled as disgraceful for example.

Windrunner · Sep 25, 2018

Why does this dumb '80s manga trope keep getting recycled? City Hunter was over 30 years ago, it's time for some new material...

Sabretooth · Sep 25, 2018

Narumi said:
In the actual context of the scene, the action is depicted as a negative action and one that should be frowned upon. It's a character flaw and not glorified sexism.

And there was no other way to depict this character flaw than filling up the whole screen with an ass grab animation. No glorified sexism here, captain, I'm too busy frowning at that ass.

Saoshyant · Sep 25, 2018

badcrumble said:
Does Raz really not get any kind of comeuppance/learn to respect women by the end of the game?

DigitalOp said:
Wow, so the game never confronts Raz' actions and lets him know he was wrong?

He's immediately punched by the person in question, all the while their squad mates join in cheering him to get punched more because of how much a loser he is. The OP of course fails to mention this or otherwise there wouldn't be outrage.

Could this game have avoided this scene in the first place? Yeah. Could it have avoided having this shit "bro" character in it in the first place? Yeah. It's sad that we aren't likely going to get much in the way of progressive anime writing from Japan for a looong while. However, it's still nowhere nearly as bad as the OP and VG24 are trying to make it look.

Dice · Sep 25, 2018

Elfforkusu said:
In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters exhibit sexist attitudes that would not be acceptable in 2018.

At least the girls can wear miniskirts to battle in this faux-1930's EU, amirite

Please, the series treads setting it's inspired setting by super lightly so it can within it.

Ænima · Sep 25, 2018

Seems like its a character trait more than anything that will probably will evolve in his evolution as a person. In VC1 one of the main characters was also racist in the beginning of the game, and moved to a story ark where she slowly stoped being as racist and finally acepted the other race as equal by the end of the game. So here hopping the same will happen with this character.

Deleted member 47318 · Sep 25, 2018

celigio said:
I'm probably the last person to criticize this, but that shit is gross

Lost interest in this franquise

Wulfram · Sep 25, 2018

Elfforkusu said:
In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters exhibit sexist attitudes that would not be acceptable in 2018.

Tou can't say it's reflecting 1930s society because the women wouldn't be in combat units at all in that case.

(Except in the soviet union. Or some leftist militias in the Spanish civil war. Or the resistance, but you get what I mean)

Alucrid · Sep 25, 2018

they also have an accidental up skirt moment. tropes pile on pretty heavily early in the game.

Switch · Sep 25, 2018

Elfforkusu said:
In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters exhibit sexist attitudes that would not be acceptable in 2018.

Well said and its also a video game. How many people have killed a person/AI in a video game? Killing another person been a sin since the 10 commandments, but in video games its quite acceptable to this very day.
People need to get a grip and remember its a video game, that's all it is.

Poutine Runner 2049 · Sep 25, 2018

Dice said:
Why do women ass-grabs happen so goddamn often? Or upskirts? Or hot spring scenes (where someone/somehow ends up peaking or falling through the dividers)?
How do women treat men is a similar situations? (this is more rhetorical because I can't think of many examples)

It's really unfortunate trope to keep perpetuating; especially since a lot of these situations happen in real life where real women are, in giant numbers, taken advantage of, and out there it's a LOT less funny.

...did they have no other ideas to get this idea that the girls are tough?

How many other 2018 games have scenes like this? You make it sound like theres an ass grabbing epidemic in video games. Once again, hyperbole and misrepresenting truth to justify outrage.

Dannerz · Sep 25, 2018

Don't know what's more troubling, the actions depicted in the scene or the casual racism and sweeping generalizations against Japanese people in this forum.

GekkoPolo · Sep 25, 2018

Just stop bringing games here Japan

Windrunner · Sep 25, 2018

Switch said:
Well said and its also a video game. How many people have killed a person/AI in a video game? Killing another person been a sin since the 10 commandments, but in video games its quite acceptable to this very day.
People need to get a grip and remember its a video game, that's all it is.

What the actual fuck is this.

Dice · Sep 25, 2018

Alucrid said:
they also have an accidental up skirt moment. tropes pile on pretty heavily early in the game.

but wait, there's more

"SAY WHA??? I WAS NUDE IN THE COLD THIS WHOLE TIME"

*face palm*
*fist palm*

Zelas · Sep 25, 2018

Japanese developers are Exhibit A on why diversity matters. Either they're ignorant or they're willfully making decisions that boil down to these concerns not being important enough.

Phendrift · Sep 25, 2018

Poutine Runner 2049 said:
Doesn't she slap him to the ground as soon as he grabs her ass therefore establishing what he did was wrong and unacceptable? Not to mention their squad cheers her on for standing up for herself.

Oh look another misleading OP meant to drum up outrage so people who were never going to buy the game anyway can come in and get on their moral high ground by claiming they're not buying the game.

Oh god, the last part of that video is worse

Curufinwe · Sep 25, 2018

Wulfram said:
Tou can't say it's reflecting 1930s society because the women wouldn't be in combat units at all in that case.

(Except in the soviet union. Or some leftist militias in the Spanish civil war. Or the resistance, but you get what I mean)

Sexual harassment and sexual assault is a huge issue in the modern military when men serve alongside women.

Dale Copper · Sep 25, 2018

Windrunner said:
What the actual fuck is this.

A terrible defense for some dumb embarrassing shit.

Menx64 · Sep 25, 2018

Skittles said:
Call me when he faces actual consequences for his actions instead of pretty much a literal slap on the wrist. Dude sexually assaults someone in front of the whole squad and doesn't get court martial for it? Dang, game really shows you that it doesn't support it. To top it off we have an upskirt gag right after

People dont even get martial court for sexual harassment or assault in real life... Expecting as much from a game is naive.

The problem in these cases is that it seems there is a big divide between supporters of women and people who think removing this kind of things from Japanese games undermines the creativity and artistic freedom of the authors (Others are just perverts). Lots of people defend all from very tame scenes to some very disturbing ones.
I dont think people are wrong for calling all cases, but we need to watch every case in detail and not put every game on the same basket just because is an anime game.

Caz · Sep 25, 2018

Saoshyant said:
He's immediately punched by the person in question, all the while their squad mates join in cheering him to get punched more because of how much a loser he is. The OP of course fails to mention this or otherwise there wouldn't be outrage.

Getting punched and getting, say, court martialed or, at the very least, sanctioned by his peers for sexual misconduct are two different things. Instead, the scene treats his abhorrent actions as a joke in the "oni-san you pervert, humph!" vein, which sexual harassment, assault, etc. is most certainly not.

Again: He grabbed her ass and the most he gets is slightly irritated from their retaliation.

Alucrid · Sep 25, 2018

Dice said:
but wait, there's more

In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters visit onsen that would not be available in 2018.

KRBM · Sep 25, 2018

Dark Cloud said:
You can comment without the snark.

I will when you're not shooting down reasonable posts with 3-word replies.

BRSxIgnition · Sep 25, 2018

GekkoPolo said:
Just stop bringing games here Japan

This is just as hasty a take as the article in the OP. Like holy shit.

Ichi · Sep 25, 2018

Elfforkusu said:
In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters exhibit sexist attitudes and behaviors that would not be acceptable in 2018.

H I S T O R I C A L A C C U R A C Y

The Last One · Sep 25, 2018

GekkoPolo said:
Just stop bringing games here Japan

How about just stop being pervert?

Elfforkusu · Sep 25, 2018

Wulfram said:
Tou can't say it's reflecting 1930s society because the women wouldn't be in combat units at all in that case.

(Except in the soviet union. Or some leftist militias in the Spanish civil war. Or the resistance, but you get what I mean)

I mean, you just provided examples of how women were in combat in real ww2, why is it such a stretch that women would be serving in fantasy-alt-ww2 where they're trying to make you feel bad for getting your units killed?

/shrug

Dale Copper · Sep 25, 2018

Alucrid said:
In Valkyria Chronicles 4, set in an alternate 1930s Europe, some characters visit onsen that would not be available in 2018.

Yup this happened all the time in the 1930's, I should know because I'm an expert on this.

srtrestre · Sep 25, 2018

This is super gross.

VG247: Valkyria Chronicles 4’s sexual harassment problem is unacceptable in 2018 (READ OP)

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