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Do you think Incineroar still have a shot at making in Smash Bros as playable character?

  • Yes

    Votes: 375 55.7%
  • No

    Votes: 298 44.3%

  • Total voters
    673
  • Poll closed .
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Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Who is this Ayumi person? I don't think I've ever heard them mentioned in this thread. Heartskips didn't guess this one so I guess Ayumi must be so obscure that even they don't know or support her. I'll throw her a mercy vote though.
I forgot about the game and got into a discussion about one of the things that annoy me the most: the JRPG term.

The dumb JRPG term means nothing, sounds stupid, isn't used by japanese devs and now cost me a point in this thread's game. Death to the awful and terrible JRPG term.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,066
I forgot about the game and got into a discussion about one of the things that annoy me the most: the JRPG term.

The dumb JRPG term means nothing, sounds stupid, isn't used by japanese devs and now cost me a point in this thread's game. Death to the awful and terrible JRPG term.

Does Imageepoch count?

Anyway, I can't think of a more perfect term with which to apply to Barkey Shut Up and Jam Gaiden, so it remains the official genre name. Complaint vetoed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,537
Okay lets get weird.

If Sakurai approached you and told you that he was going to add a Batman villain to the roster that wasn't the Joker or Harley Quinn and wanted your input on who should get in, who would you pick?
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,066
Japanese devs don't use the term JRPG, but they do use the terms Passion that Illuminates the World RPG, Discovering the Strength to Protect RPG, and Enforcing One's "Justice" RPG.
 

Pause

Member
Feb 22, 2018
1,278
Does Imageepoch count?

Anyway, I can't think of a more perfect term with which to apply to Barkey Shut Up and Jam Gaiden, so it remains the official genre name. Complaint vetoed.
shut up and jam gaiden is simply "not a vidcon" which is the most accurate defnition
Okay lets get weird.

If Sakurai approached you and told you that he was going to add a Batman villain to the roster that wasn't the Joker or Harley Quinn and wanted your input on who should get in, who would you pick?
killer croc hoping to just add k rool twice
 

Lady Bow

Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,308
Okay lets get weird.

If Sakurai approached you and told you that he was going to add a Batman villain to the roster that wasn't the Joker or Harley Quinn and wanted your input on who should get in, who would you pick?
65HC.gif


wE9ioP.gif


Freezing the stage/players could be a cool gimmick.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Japanese devs don't use the term JRPG, but they do use the terms Passion that Illuminates the World RPG, Discovering the Strength to Protect RPG, and Enforcing One's "Justice" RPG.
Yeah, but don't you think it's a bit weird to just go and say "from now on, your games are called JAPANESE rpg". Like, you're equating all the production of RPG in the country to a single thing, like it's all the same and only specific to that country even though you're not from there (gets even weirder when people call western games "JRPG" too). Feels like going to Mexico and saying "from now on tacos are to be called Mexican Burgers".
 

TriggerShy

Member
Mar 26, 2018
1,602
Okay lets get weird.

If Sakurai approached you and told you that he was going to add a Batman villain to the roster that wasn't the Joker or Harley Quinn and wanted your input on who should get in, who would you pick?

I'd tell him to add the The Penguin and show him this:

penza-ascendant.png



Then I'll tell him the "The Penguin" can only show up with something called a "Sushi Striker" and convince him to make Mushashi playable with Penzo "The Penguin" as one of their Sushi Sprites.
 

Metto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,111
Okay so I already talked about my counter theory for Box Theory and something that stuck out even in my theory is that the left side would have a conspicuous blank spot if Ken wasn't there which is probably the biggest counter to my counter theory. However upon looking at the box again I considered a possibility that could explain why the bottom row on the left side that contains 8 characters (54-61) and it doesn't involve Ken but first let me reiterate my counter theory.

The Box isn't meant to show the full roster and the box we see is what we're going to be getting at launch and will feature none of the fighters past the 8/8 Smash Direct.

Evidence 1: The box doesn't feature Isabelle

Well of course it was to prevent leaks from retailers. Well if that's the case why did the box appear after Isabelle was unveiled and still not feature her there? The box even appeared after she was unveiled so that counter argument doesn't hold that much water either. It's just weird that we're making assumptions that the box will show off the entire roster when already it doesn't.

Evidence 2: Other forms of marketing also doesn't feature Isabelle
Not the European Special Edition

Nor the banner used in the tailgate tour being done to promote the game.

Which again super odd and in the case of the European edition might imply that's the final box art and doesn't need to feature the characters after the Smash Direct. It also leads the question of why they're showing the box art for the special editions this early? All we need to know are the contents right now and they can show the final box art later. Unless if once again is only featuring the roster as of the Smash Direct.

Evidence 3: No Fire Emblem Warriors doesn't compare to this.

So a common argument used in favor of the Box Theory is that we have cases like Fire Emblem Warriors that showed off hidden characters on their special edition box art before the game came out. However in FE Warriors' case the Box Art was shown off a couple of weeks before the game came out in Japan. So it would make sense that the final box art would've been put out there. In comparison Smash Ultimate is still months before release so why they felt compelled to show updated box art is strange unless if that box art was final and the box doesn't represent the final roster.

So in conclusion maybe Nintendo figured it would be better for all of the external marketing to only show off the roster after the Smash Direct as they wouldn't need to worry about leaks and coordinating making new banners. Just because Sakurai said he would show off all the characters before release doesn't mean the marketing and box arts need to feature them and the roster would still look impressive and eye catching to most casual players just checking the game out.

Now once again the big counter argument for this theory is the left side features a missing blank spot and the spot lines up with us getting a Ken Echo Fighters. Well what if the box wasn't blank and it wasn't Ken. What if the final 8 row fills it up by itself because there was another character that took the slot?

What if it was Pokemon Trainer that took up 2 spaces by itself?
ssbu_wallpaper___33_35___pokemon_trainer_by_umsauthorlava-dcfv42f.png


Pokemon Trainer is already a super unique character and the virtue of the character would mean that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard should also share the slot with Pokemon Trainer. But the way that the slots and spaces are set up makes it seem a bit too cramped to fit the format of the slots. So what if Pokemon Trainer's slot was bigger than usual potentially occupying 2 slot because it would need to feature 4 characters? The Mii Fighters slot already looks super cramped with 3 so maybe this would be a way to accommodate PT.

So the blank slot on the left is potentially Pokemon Trainer occupying 2 slots and the Box is not showing us the full roster and is instead only representative of the roster as of the Smash Direct. Which would explain why the final row has 8 characters just like the current set up only having 7 characters for the right side. Either implying it's the final one or the box isn't final and it could be edited to feature a better design for all the fighters.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,599
Yeah, but don't you think it's a bit weird to just go and say "from now on, your games are called JAPANESE rpg". Like, you're equating all the production of RPG in the country to a single thing, like it's all the same and only specific to that country even though you're not from there (gets even weirder when people call western games "JRPG" too). Feels like going to Mexico and saying "from now on tacos are to be called Mexican Burgers".

Do you have a problem with the term Western RPG? As for your Mexican example, people most definitely identify food based on where it comes from. Mexican cuisine is a thing and when people say they are going to eat Mexican food, it doesn't mean they are actually getting the food from Mexico. The term Mexican food has specific connotations.
 

HMS_Pinafore

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,156
Straya M8
are we still talking Music theory?

We have a Music day tomorrow and these are the series that have a playable character with no music:

Pokemon
Xenoblade
Starfox
Mother
Kid Icarus
Punchout
Ice Climber
Wii Fit
Duck Hunt
R.O.B
Game And Watch

Sonic
Pac-man
Bayonetta
Final Fantasy

I'm thinking we'll either see Punchout or Kid Icarus tomorrow (hoping for Pokemon tho)
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,534
Okay so I already talked about my counter theory for Box Theory and something that stuck out even in my theory is that the left side would have a conspicuous blank spot if Ken wasn't there which is probably the biggest counter to my counter theory. However upon looking at the box again I considered a possibility that could explain why the bottom row on the left side that contains 8 characters (54-61) and it doesn't involve Ken but first let me reiterate my counter theory.

The Box isn't meant to show the full roster and the box we see is what we're going to be getting at launch and will feature none of the fighters past the 8/8 Smash Direct.

Evidence 1: The box doesn't feature Isabelle

Well of course it was to prevent leaks from retailers. Well if that's the case why did the box appear after Isabelle was unveiled and still not feature her there? The box even appeared after she was unveiled so that counter argument doesn't hold that much water either. It's just weird that we're making assumptions that the box will show off the entire roster when already it doesn't.

Evidence 2: Other forms of marketing also doesn't feature Isabelle
Not the European Special Edition


Nor the banner used in the tailgate tour being done to promote the game.


Which again super odd and in the case of the European edition might imply that's the final box art and doesn't need to feature the characters after the Smash Direct. It also leads the question of why they're showing the box art for the special editions this early? All we need to know are the contents right now and they can show the final box art later. Unless if once again is only featuring the roster as of the Smash Direct.

Evidence 3: No Fire Emblem Warriors doesn't compare to this.

So a common argument used in favor of the Box Theory is that we have cases like Fire Emblem Warriors that showed off hidden characters on their special edition box art before the game came out. However in FE Warriors' case the Box Art was shown off a couple of weeks before the game came out in Japan. So it would make sense that the final box art would've been put out there. In comparison Smash Ultimate is still months before release so why they felt compelled to show updated box art is strange unless if that box art was final and the box doesn't represent the final roster.

So in conclusion maybe Nintendo figured it would be better for all of the external marketing to only show off the roster after the Smash Direct as they wouldn't need to worry about leaks and coordinating making new banners. Just because Sakurai said he would show off all the characters before release doesn't mean the marketing and box arts need to feature them and the roster would still look impressive and eye catching to most casual players just checking the game out.

Now once again the big counter argument for this theory is the left side features a missing blank spot and the spot lines up with us getting a Ken Echo Fighters. Well what if the box wasn't blank and it wasn't Ken. What if the final 8 row fills it up by itself because there was another character that took the slot?

What if it was Pokemon Trainer that took up 2 spaces by itself?
ssbu_wallpaper___33_35___pokemon_trainer_by_umsauthorlava-dcfv42f.png


Pokemon Trainer is already a super unique character and the virtue of the character would mean that Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard should also share the slot with Pokemon Trainer. But the way that the slots and spaces are set up makes it seem a bit too cramped to fit the format of the slots. So what if Pokemon Trainer's slot was bigger than usual potentially occupying 2 slot because it would need to feature 4 characters? The Mii Fighters slot already looks super cramped with 3 so maybe this would be a way to accommodate PT.

So the blank slot on the left is potentially Pokemon Trainer occupying 2 slots and the Box is not showing us the full roster and is instead only representative of the roster as of the Smash Direct. Which would explain why the final row has 8 characters just like the current set up only having 7 characters for the right side. Either implying it's the final one or the box isn't final and it could be edited to feature a better design for all the fighters.
Well regardless of if it's the final boss (with spaces) I'll throw out Pokemon Trainer is probably not getting 2 spaces for him & his pokemon. Even in the RAGE event brochure that gave each Mii fighter a separate box, the pokemon trainer is put all four of them into a single box https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Super-Smash-Bros-Ultimate-nintendo-Switch/5019677402
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,066
Yeah, but don't you think it's a bit weird to just go and say "from now on, your games are called JAPANESE rpg". Like, you're equating all the production of RPG in the country to a single thing, like it's all the same and only specific to that country even though you're not from there (gets even weirder when people call western games "JRPG" too). Feels like going to Mexico and saying "from now on tacos are to be called Mexican Burgers".

Okay, serious answer time. Genre is descriptive. It's used to link together works that share a common inspiration and attributes, or possibility a joint history. A genre applies a long as it's useful to us in order to capture a particular grouping.

It doesn't matter what the developers want because it's not really up to them. Capcom succeeded at creating the survival horror genre, which got its name from how they marketed Resident Evil. They tried to do the same thing with Dino Crisis by labeling it as "survival panic". But no one really needs that separate label, so it's the first one that survives.

Not every JRPG fits into the same genre - there are tactical RPGs like Fire Emblem, traditional Dragon Quest inspired ones, action RPGs, whatever. There are genres within that. But Japanese RPGs have a history that is not entirely shared with western ones, often being more inspired by each other or by other Japanese media conventions than by the tabletop RPG conventions that have long dominated western RPGs. For that reason, it's still often convenient to separate and distinguish the two, since they're worth comparing.

I'm not entirely unserious when I say Shut Up and Jam Gaiden is a JRPG, because even though it's not Japanese, it very clearly is inspired by them and follows ideas from them. It's even parodied at one point where a character shows you a bestiary, but not only are the monsters not in the game, they're described like a Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual - the wrong kind of RPG.

And this is also why I don't really sympathize with people who whine about their favourite hunting action game being called a "Monster Hunter clone". When we called things Doom clones back in the day (well, I called them Wolf clones, but maybe that's just me), there wasn't anything particularly derogatory about them. But the games were built on a shared convention, and we wanted to describe them all together, so we just used the most prominent shooter as an object of comparison.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Evidence 1: The box doesn't feature Isabelle

Well of course it was to prevent leaks from retailers. Well if that's the case why did the box appear after Isabelle was unveiled and still not feature her there? The box even appeared after she was unveiled so that counter argument doesn't hold that much water either. It's just weird that we're making assumptions that the box will show off the entire roster when already it doesn't.

Evidence 2: Other forms of marketing also doesn't feature Isabelle
Not the European Special Edition
Nor the banner used in the tailgate tour being done to promote the game.
Which again super odd and in the case of the European edition might imply that's the final box art and doesn't need to feature the characters after the Smash Direct. It also leads the question of why they're showing the box art for the special editions this early? All we need to know are the contents right now and they can show the final box art later. Unless if once again is only featuring the roster as of the Smash Direct.
Because there were made before the Direct was finished. Otherwise it would leak. I don't know how you can say this when the time makes total sense for Isabelle to not be there. It was made after K Rool was revealed and before Isabelle.

So a common argument used in favor of the Box Theory is that we have cases like Fire Emblem Warriors that showed off hidden characters on their special edition box art before the game came out. However in FE Warriors' case the Box Art was shown off a couple of weeks before the game came out in Japan. So it would make sense that the final box art would've been put out there. In comparison Smash Ultimate is still months before release so why they felt compelled to show updated box art is strange unless if that box art was final and the box doesn't represent the final roster.
Because the whole roster will be announced way before the game releases. Also, it does compare to several Nintendo marketing blunders like them announcing Brawl's newcomers in a sticker screenshot.

What if it was Pokemon Trainer that took up 2 spaces by itself?
This doesn't make sense, it would imply a single huge box breaking the whole pattern -- this is not how these things are made. I mean, at this point it's clear Ken is in, the box revealing the whole roster or not.
 

Metto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,111
Well regardless of if it's the final boss (with spaces) I'll throw out Pokemon Trainer is probably not getting 2 spaces for him & his pokemon. Even in the RAGE event brochure that gave each Mii fighter a separate box, the pokemon trainer is put all four of them into a single box https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Super-Smash-Bros-Ultimate-nintendo-Switch/5019677402
The formatting for the brochure is different from the way the box is. That's why I'm suggesting PT would get an extra slot because it would be difficult to show off all 4 characters on the same thin slot and Mii Fighters were already pushing it with 3.
 

Prof Bathtub

Member
Apr 26, 2018
2,677
Okay, serious answer time. Genre is descriptive. It's used to link together works that share a common inspiration and attributes, or possibility a joint history. A genre applies a long as it's useful to us in order to capture a particular grouping.

It doesn't matter what the developers want because it's not really up to them. Capcom succeeded at creating the survival horror genre, which got its name from how they marketed Resident Evil. They tried to do the same thing with Dino Crisis by labeling it as "survival panic". But no one really needs that separate label, so it's the first one that survives.

Not every JRPG fits into the same genre - there are tactical RPGs like Fire Emblem, traditional Dragon Quest inspired ones, action RPGs, whatever. There are genres within that. But Japanese RPGs have a history that is not entirely shared with western ones, often being more inspired by each other or by other Japanese media conventions than by the tabletop RPG conventions that have long dominated western RPGs. For that reason, it's still often convenient to separate and distinguish the two, since they're worth comparing.

I'm not entirely unserious when I say Shut Up and Jam Gaiden is a JRPG, because even though it's not Japanese, it very clearly is inspired by them and follows ideas from them. It's even parodied at one point where a character shows you a bestiary, but not only are the monsters not in the game, they're described like a Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual - the wrong kind of RPG.

I'd say Japanese strategy RPGs are considered J and RPG, but aren't quite in the same category that Zeboyd/Barkley/etc take after.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,315
Nashville
I was thinking Giygas for a few reasons.

He does have a form from Mother 1. I know it's not as iconic but him being the villain of two of the games in the trilogy makes him important.
Porky would look weird as a fighter honestly in my opinion.
Final smash could literally be his earthbound form or a meteor.
Another earthbound character.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,534
I don't know. Porky would be neat, but Giygas is the villain of two of the three earthbound games. She is important(is Giygas a she?)
Giygas is referred to as a dude I'm pretty sure.

The other big part of Giygas is his very notable, very distinct appearance is defined by being undefined. Going with the lesser known and less interesting to look at EB0 design just so you can have him seems a bit weird.

Porky also has direct ties to both Ness & Lucas and I think that connection is nicer.
The formatting for the brochure is different from the way the box is. That's why I'm suggesting PT would get an extra slot because it would be difficult to show off all 4 characters on the same thin slot and Mii Fighters were already pushing it with 3.
The boxes are about the same size though, giving him 2 spaces would be weirder than just leaving blank spots on the final box. I mean at that point why not shrink the boxes a little and give all the pokemon and the miis their own box
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,714
I was thinking Giygas for a few reasons.

He does have a form from Mother 1. I know it's not as iconic but him being the villain of two of the games in the trilogy makes him important.
Porky would look weird as a fighter honestly in my opinion.
Final smash could literally be his earthbound form or a meteor.
Another earthbound character.

Doesn't he only appear once and as a sprite that's not animated? At least Porky had more scenes and a spider mech!
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Okay, serious answer time. Genre is descriptive. It's used to link together works that share a common inspiration and attributes, or possibility a joint history. A genre applies a long as it's useful to us in order to capture a particular grouping.

It doesn't matter what the developers want because it's not really up to them. Capcom succeeded at creating the survival horror genre, which got its name from how they marketed Resident Evil. They tried to do the same thing with Dino Crisis by labeling it as "survival panic". But no one really needs that separate label, so it's the first one that survives.

Not every JRPG fits into the same genre - there are tactical RPGs like Fire Emblem, traditional Dragon Quest inspired ones, action RPGs, whatever. There are genres within that. But Japanese RPGs have a history that is not entirely shared with western ones, often being more inspired by each other or by other Japanese media conventions than by the tabletop RPG conventions that have long dominated western RPGs. For that reason, it's still often convenient to separate and distinguish the two, since they're worth comparing.

I'm not entirely unserious when I say Shut Up and Jam Gaiden is a JRPG, because even though it's not Japanese, it very clearly is inspired by them and follows ideas from them. It's even parodied at one point where a character shows you a bestiary, but not only are the monsters not in the game, they're described like a Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual - the wrong kind of RPG.
Well, I have a big problem with the naming of genres in the game industry. Most of them don't have any meaning, the number of games called RPG is growing by the day and at this point, using "RPG" to search for a game won't give you games that share a lot in common. Pokémon doesn't play at all like BOTW or Skyrim, even though these games are all somehow called RPG... it gets even worse when you add stuff like Dark Souls and even Monster Hunter now. So this is already a big problem.

And I know that the developers don't decide how genres are named, but I think it's a bit different in this case because of the sensitive naming. "Japanese RPG" is a genre using a country as a term... and the people in that country don't use this term, so it just feels wrong. Takahashi is an example of a dev that doesn't like the term: https://www.resetera.com/threads/xe...designing-blades-talk-about-the-ending.69787/ I remember reading other devs commenting about this as well, but I'm a bit lazy to search for the quotes now. But in general I think it's different just because of the very specific term using "japanese" in the name.

I do know about the difference in influences for these games. Like I said, these "western RPG" games don't play anything like most "japanese RPGs". They're basically two different genres that have the same name. In general, I think they're very bad terms and should be replaced gradually.
 

GustyGardner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,443
are we still talking Music theory?

We have a Music day tomorrow and these are the series that have a playable character with no music:

Pokemon
Xenoblade
Starfox
Mother
Kid Icarus
Punchout
Ice Climber
Wii Fit
Duck Hunt
R.O.B
Game And Watch

Sonic
Pac-man
Bayonetta
Final Fantasy

I'm thinking we'll either see Punchout or Kid Icarus tomorrow (hoping for Pokemon tho)


I think its safe to say the "safe" choices (aka very unlikely to get a unique newcomer) for music updates until the next character unveil are:

Star Fox
Kid Icarus
Mother
Punch Out
Wii Fit

and maybe Sonic if we actually get remixes this time round.

The others are either confirmed to not have new remixes or in my opinion won't have remixes. I think Duck Hunt will have one remix which is already in their character video so going by the trend, it won't appear on the site. ROB and G&W have little chance of getting anything while I still like to think the Galaga remix was Pac-Man's in a roundabout way. I'm also iffy on Wii Fit and Ice Climbers getting a track but Wii Fit had a bunch in Smash Wii U so I put it with the other series.

This is just what I think will happen, of course I hope we get a curveball Pokémon track too! Or best case, a FF/Bayonetta track to prove the direct MyMusic numbers weren't final.
 
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