Early 2000s gaming magazine coverage is a dumpsterfire (Read Mod note in OP)

pswii60 · Sep 24, 2018

It's not much different to the shit Lad Bible posts now. These magazines were directly aimed at young men/teens - the same audience that would be reading similar tripe in FHM etc

And times weren't much different. We'd still have similarly insufferable crap now if the young generation actually had any interest in buying magazines these days.

Empyrean Cocytus · Sep 24, 2018

Not sure if it's around, but I've always wanted to see the March 2005 issue of...it was either EGM or OPM, anyway, it basically declared the PSP the future of portable entertainment, and made clear that Nintendo would be out of business (not software-only, OUT OF BUSINESS) by the end of the decade.

nicoga3000 · Sep 24, 2018

Claven said:
And that's bad because...?
If anything, it's good that a large part of the gaming audience is now sensitive to misogyny, sexism, racism and homophobia.

It's bad because everyone acts like 10+ years ago was "so recent". But really, a TON has changed in not just the gaming landscape, but the world we live in. To criticize and try and "call these people out" today doesn't do anything but create a dog piling anti-discussion. I mean hell, even my initial response was admittedly lacking substance, but it's how I feel on the matter. To look back at an old gaming magazine and put the information into today's context is a waste of time.

Instead, look at the content that is being put out TODAY and find ways to continue to improve it. That's a much more productive use of your time. If Writer A put something that had misogynistic tones 12 years ago but doesn't today (and hasn't since), does that mean Writer A should be crucified and called out for the material they did when it was in line with the cultural norms and, dare I say, the cultural expectations?

Dogui · Sep 24, 2018

Girls really seems to dislike FF1for some reason.

Edit: Didn't even read the first paragraph lol

I remember there was a brazillian edition of the EGM back then with a "erotic gaming calendar". It looked really stupid even for a horny teen me.

Deleted member 46948 · Sep 24, 2018

nicoga3000 said:
It's bad because everyone acts like 10+ years ago was "so recent". But really, a TON has changed in not just the gaming landscape, but the world we live in. To criticize and try and "call these people out" today doesn't do anything but create a dog piling anti-discussion. I mean hell, even my initial response was admittedly lacking substance, but it's how I feel on the matter. To look back at an old gaming magazine and put the information into today's context is a waste of time.

Instead, look at the content that is being put out TODAY and find ways to continue to improve it. That's a much more productive use of your time. If Writer A put something that had misogynistic tones 12 years ago but doesn't today (and hasn't since), does that mean Writer A should be crucified and called out for the material they did when it was in line with the cultural norms and, dare I say, the cultural expectations?

Yeah I don't think anyone is calling for the crucifixion of the writers. The point is that yes, as recently as 10 years ago, this kind of shit was considered normal and acceptable.

nicoga3000 · Sep 24, 2018

Claven said:
Yeah I don't think anyone is calling for the crucifixion of the writers. The point is that yes, as recently as 10 years ago, this kind of shit was considered normal and acceptable.

In that case, if this is just an exercise in, "Look how bad it was," that's fair. But I just hope people are looking at things contextually.

Type VII · Sep 24, 2018

Remember the UK Playstation magazines of the 90's that were essentially lad's mags? Playstation Plus was the biggest offender IIRC.

Barrel Cannon · Sep 24, 2018

I feel by that time there was already enough people waking up and realizing how garbage this writing was. But it was somehow acceptable to be so misogynistic. It's a marvel how far we've come in a little over a decade.

Acknowledging that it was a different period of time is fine IMO. None of us think it's ok now, nor do we think it was ok back then either. It's just a lot of people (myself included) didn't really bat an eye to this type of bullshit back then because we were raised in an environment where it felt normal and acceptable(when really it isn't acceptable at all)

Popetita · Sep 24, 2018

I think it is a learning experience on how much gaming has changed and views have evolved. But to judge them and say WTF because that was the way to be successful in those days then it is a bit unfair.

It is cringy and bad for sure but everyone was doing it. Booth babes where still a thing and gaming was not that mainstream and still seen a bad by some subset of society.

Barrel Cannon · Sep 24, 2018

Popetita said:
I think it is a learning experience on how much gaming has changed and views have evolved. But to judge them and say WTF because that was the way to be successful in those days then it is a bit unfair.

It is cringy and bad for sure but everyone was doing it. Booth babes where still a thing and gaming was not that mainstream and still seen a bad by some subset of society.

Eh, I dunno if chasing success is worth breaking a morale ground of what you know or think should be right. It takes a bigger person to stand your ground and not chase a fad that is a detriment to a whole gender.

zenspider · Sep 24, 2018

mightynine said:
Early 2000s, aka "We all gotta be Maxim".

Except probably Nintendo Power.

Yeah. Maxim's style just dominated print and added a grody, "frat" veneer to every magazine, be it the ZiffDavis tech conglomerate or even actual pornographic mags with Playboy, trading their "gentleman" angle in for a percieved lower common denominator.

Today's tykes would like to remind us that we've come very far since then (RIP SpikeTV), but it was a pretty gross trend for a lot of folks back then too. There was just no #outrage mechanism in place, besides not buying Maxim-influenced mags.

Korigama · Sep 24, 2018

Slayven said:
PSM use to have swimsuit issues with dvds.

Having subscribed to PSM from the late '90s until dropping them shortly after they rebranded to the Official PlayStation Magazine (replacing the old one that ended ahead of them), I don't remember any DVDs, but they did indeed have swimsuit issues.

Gxgear · Sep 24, 2018

Silky said:
.

Right back at ya. You're projecting.

dezzyeight · Sep 24, 2018

Sailent said:
I too myself miss sexism and women objectification. I also miss slavery, when the nigroes had to walk on the road, and I had all the sidewalk for myself.

Yeah, those magazines were so sweet back then.

Nah.

Wow comparing sexism to slavery. That's a huge reach right there. You act as if men aren't objectified in the same way towards women. It's just nobody makes a fuss out of it. Women aren't pure just like men aren't. They probably wanted to take those pics half naked. They weren't forced like "slaves". And I as a young teen during those years enjoyed these ads and I see no problem with them now.

Popetita · Sep 24, 2018

Barrel Cannon said:
Eh, I dunno if chasing success is worth breaking a morale ground of what you know or think should be right. It takes a bigger person to stand your ground and not chase a fad that is a detriment to a whole gender.

My point is that it wasn't 'breaking a morale ground' at the time in the 90s.

It was the operating procedure in those times and wasn't seen as bad as it is today.

I know saying it was not a detriment to the gender is not right or correct, but in the 90s when these magazines came out most people where not thinking about it that much and there was not an avenue as big as the internet to fight back as we have now.

That is why it slowly changed and stuff like booth babes went away, but even in the early 2000s with the internet, we got a few cringy IGN article that was not called out.

Even if the mods say that talking about the times might not be a good comment it sadly it a very relevant point.

Mister Saturn · Sep 24, 2018

I know a lot of the deep thinkers here at Resetera will prescribe it as a symptom of how terrible the games audience was and is, but a good amount of that stuff was likely driven by marketing and finance people pushing that shit onto editorial.

Ichi · Sep 24, 2018

Zappy said:
I do find this sort of clear example of societal evolution fascinating though. I wonder what we'll look at in 2038 from 2018 and think "blimey"?

religion fanaticism, the alt-right, so many others.

we still have stuff like rodeo shows, animal tourism, etc. still so many barbaric things going on, which is very surprising.

Heck, gay marriage is still illegal in most places around the world. Homophobia is still real.

Deleted member 2595 · Sep 24, 2018

woof, nasty

shows an abject lack of knowledge about the history of games: that they were completely family friendly and there was no gender bias until around 1987 or so

women and men played games equally, as far as we know

Mister Saturn said:
I know a lot of the deep thinkers here at Resetera will prescribe it as a symptom of how terrible the games audience was and is, but a good amount of that stuff was likely driven by marketing and finance people pushing that shit onto editorial.

Yup, the PR and marketing led the market, not the other way around.

dezzyeight said:
I miss those days. Magazines were awesome then. Nowadays that wouldn't fly.

lol

Morrigan · Sep 24, 2018

Andy Mac said:
And you think that's the same as having attractive women selling products?

I don't get how we leap from a model posing next to an arcade machine to bullying people online.

Like you are making connections that I'm not seeing at all.

You really don't see the link between sexism, misogyny, and the objectification of women, with a movement of bullies who specifically target women who speak up about those things?

Really now

Mister Saturn said:
I know a lot of the deep thinkers here at Resetera will prescribe it as a symptom of how terrible the games audience was and is, but a good amount of that stuff was likely driven by marketing and finance people pushing that shit onto editorial.

Are you suggesting that those marketing departments chose to use a kind of marketing that doesn't work? Because the target audience didn't eat this shit up? Help the shallow thinkers figure it out, please.

Deleted member 2595 · Sep 24, 2018

Morrigan said:
Are you suggesting that those marketing departments chose to use a kind of marketing that doesn't work? Because the target audience didn't eat this shit up? Help the shallow thinkers figure it out, please.

It's well documented gaming history that the entire 'games are for boys' narrative was invented by Nintendo as a marketing tactic after the industry crashed in the '80s. Before then this stigma didn't exist and the boys thing was a "nouveau niche" that everyone else punted into to ship more stuff, as well.

That said, these magazines are probably far enough along that we can detach them from that fact and just look at how horrid they are on their own basis.

Barrel Cannon · Sep 24, 2018

Popetita said:
My point is that it wasn't 'breaking a morale ground' at the time in the 90s.

It was the operating procedure in those times and wasn't seen as bad as it is today.

I know saying it was not a detriment to the gender is not right or correct, but in the 90s when these magazines came out most people where not thinking about it that much and there was not an avenue as big as the internet to fight back as we have now.

That is why it slowly changed and stuff like booth babes went away, but even in the early 2000s with the internet, we got a few cringy IGN article that was not called out.

Even if the mods say that talking about the times might not be a good comment it sadly it a very relevant point.

Yea, I agree that talking about how it was a product of the times is a relevant to the discussion. I think the mod who wrote that comment was trying to just prevent people from trying to ignore the issue of this time period by just chalking it up to the time period instead of the journalists that wrote the articles/pieces.

Mister Saturn said:
I know a lot of the deep thinkers here at Resetera will prescribe it as a symptom of how terrible the games audience was and is, but a good amount of that stuff was likely driven by marketing and finance people pushing that shit onto editorial.

Yea this is important to consider too.

Sailent · Sep 24, 2018

Mister Saturn said:
I know a lot of the deep thinkers here at Resetera will prescribe it as a symptom of how terrible the games audience was and is, but a good amount of that stuff was likely driven by marketing and finance people pushing that shit onto editorial.

So the famous "Not all gamers?"

Deleted member 11413 · Sep 24, 2018

Just for some perspective, I (and I'm quite sure a significant portion of this board) were very young children at the time these magazines were being published. If you are 30-40 this may seem like "not that long ago" to you but it really was quite a long time ago. That doesn't make any of this stuff less stupid, sexist, and gross, but it does mean that a significant portion of the current audience has no exposure to this sort of publication.

Suede · Sep 24, 2018

Yeah, they were trash, not like we've advanced much though, as much as people like to think we have.

Mister Saturn · Sep 24, 2018

Morrigan said:
Are you suggesting that those marketing departments chose to use a kind of marketing that doesn't work? Because the target audience didn't eat this shit up? Help the shallow thinkers figure it out, please.

I'm suggesting that many marketing and finance departments chase trends that are successful without understanding why they're successful, and that it played out that way with games magazines, with the money people trying to appeal to those outside of their audience.

Maybe you'd have a point if GamePro, CGW, and EGM were being bought by the US Weekly audience wanting books of beautiful people pimping shit and looking beautiful, but my experience was that most people buying games magazines to read about games hated that bullshit. Never said gender disparity in the audience didn't play a part, but nice projecting there. I expected nothing less.

Sailent said:
So the famous "Not all gamers?"

Yeah, sure, if you ignore things like context and meaning.

Poppy · Sep 24, 2018

it was always dumb

never in life have i seen something akin to this and not thought it was dumb

it isnt an age thing, you actually have to be a dumb person to think it is not bad

Morrigan · Sep 24, 2018

Mister Saturn said:
I'm suggesting that many marketing and finance departments chase trends that are successful without understanding why they're successful, and that it played out that way with games magazines, with the money people trying to appeal to those outside of their audience.

Okay. And do you have evidence of those claims?

But I just find your take interesting because it goes against a very, very common sentiment, which is that those ads were there because they work because "sex sells". In fact, "sex sells, get over it" is what women routinely hear as dismissive retort whenever they complain about things like that.

If sex(ist objectification) actually doesn't sell, then we need to start dismantling the myth.

Maybe you'd have a point if GamePro, CGW, and EGM were being bought by the US Weekly audience wanting books of beautiful people pimping shit and looking beautiful, but my experience was that most people buying games magazines to read about games hated that bullshit.

Hmm, anecdotes then. I'll take that as a no re: the evidence, but OK.

Never said gender disparity in the audience didn't play a part, but nice projecting there. I expected nothing less.

...What is that supposed to mean?

Aeana · Sep 24, 2018

"The first ever game made especially for women was Final Fantasy 1 in 1994"

SlothmanAllen · Sep 24, 2018

Fucking lol at people saying the early to mid 00's were a "different time"! Many of the same issues then are still just a prevalent today.

Rand a. Thor · Sep 24, 2018

I mean, yeah that's how it was. Not saying it was right. Not by any means. But really, this was 15 years ago and how a generation was raised. You expect this shit to go away just because society has decided it was wrong? It takes time, and a shit ton of it. 15 years is far from enough, we are still in the early stages. Growing pains and all that.

devSin · Sep 24, 2018

Gamer "culture" was built on this shit. The rot runs all the way to the core.

John Rabbit · Sep 24, 2018

The broad strokes of the "Hit Her Game Spot" article are actually how I got my ex-wife interested in games. But the way the article is written (apparently by a woman?) as though women are docile, game-hating animals to be trained is appalling.

SlothmanAllen said:
Fucking lol at people saying the early to mid 00's were a "different time"! Many of the same issues then are still just a prevalent today.

We all know that history never repeats itself and that what happens today isn't remotely influenced by what happened yesterday though.

Deleted member 11413 · Sep 24, 2018

SlothmanAllen said:
Fucking lol at people saying the early to mid 00's were a "different time"! Many of the same issues then are still just a prevalent today.

While this is true, I think trying to tie current issues back to stuff like EGM is faulty. These kind of articles look quaint compared to things I found in the 6th grade on flash game sites, on school computers no less. Saying that early 2000's gaming mags directly led to the current gaming audience's lack of empathy for women due to objectification, while ignoring the rise of internet pornography and dangerous internet subcultures that arose over the last 5-10 years, just seems foolish.

Mister Saturn · Sep 24, 2018

Morrigan said:
Okay. And do you have evidence of those claims?

But I just find your take interesting because it goes against a very, very common sentiment, which is that those ads were there because they work because "sex sells". In fact, "sex sells, get over it" is what women routinely hear as dismissive retort whenever they complain about things like that.

If sex(ist objectification) actually doesn't sell, then we need to start dismantling the myth.

Hmm, anecdotes then. I'll take that as a no re: the evidence, but OK.

...What is that supposed to mean?

Clearly the sex didn't sell enough to keep most of those magazines afloat, but I'll concede my points are anecdotal. I'm sure those involved with games magazines at the time can give better insight into that process than either of us.

Regarding the comment about projection, I was fairly certain that my jab insinuating many posters here are shallow or one-note would translate for at least some seeing my initial post as being a defense of the sexist and trashy shit highlighted in the OP, because for some that is what they see in everything. Look no further than the poster fishing for some response with that not-all-gamers crap.

As I said: one-note.

Edit: I'm going to go ahead and stop, I'm being a dick and really don't need to be. My apologies.

devSin · Sep 24, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
While this is true, I think trying to tie current issues back to stuff like EGM is faulty. These kind of articles look quaint compared to things I found in the 6th grade on flash game sites, on school computers no less. Saying that early 2000's gaming mags directly led to the current gaming audience's lack of empathy for women due to objectification, while ignoring the rise of internet pornography and dangerous internet subcultures that arose over the last 5-10 years, just seems foolish.

Literally nobody is saying magazines caused systemic misogyny and bigotry—they're symptoms of the same disease that has infected the culture surrounding video games since its inception.

People are pushing back against the idea that somehow being old means they aren't part of a problem that still exists today. Your argument is misleading and inaccurate (it didn't take the internet to make it an unwelcome space for women and minorities).

Deleted member 11413 · Sep 24, 2018

devSin said:
Literally nobody is saying magazines caused systemic misogyny and bigotry—they're symptoms of the same disease that has infected the culture surrounding video games since its inception.

People are pushing back against the idea that somehow being old means they aren't part of a problem that still exists today. Your argument is misleading and inaccurate (also, the culture was shit before the internet even existed).

I'm saying that their contribution to current problems pales in comparison to many other sources.

Barrel Cannon · Sep 24, 2018

Selina said:
Yeah, they were trash, not like we've advanced much though, as much as people like to think we have.

I dunno, I feel like there's been big changes since then. But there's definitely a lot more changes that can be done. The fact we weekly have plenty of games that generate discussion about the sexism and misogyny in their content speaks volumes about how much can still be improved. More articles should speak on those types of issues but I feel too many sites/publications are afraid of losing their viewership due to pubs pulling review copies.

devSin · Sep 24, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
I'm saying that their contribution to current problems pales in comparison to many other sources.

And you feel the need to say this because?

I'm pretty sure nobody would disagree with you, despite your statement attempting to serve as a "correction" to things that nobody was saying or even implying.

These magazines are a reflection of a problem that still exists today. Everybody knows they didn't cause it, and nobody thinks that somehow they are primarily responsible for creating hate movements a decade later.

impact · Sep 24, 2018

HIT HER GAME SPOT is just so.... bad

I can't think of the right word for it.

devSin · Sep 24, 2018

impact said:
HIT HER GAME SPOT is just so.... bad

I can't think of the right word for it.

"Typical" sounds about right to me.

entremet · Sep 24, 2018

That's why I stuck to Nintendo Power and GamePlayers/Ultra GamePlayers ;P

Next Generation was also decent. Gamefan was a guilty pleasure.

Keywork · Sep 24, 2018

I feel like I need to go back in time and slap my younger self upside the head because I know I ate some of this shit up as a teen. But even then there was some stuff that made me raise an eyebrow. I mean it helped that my mom was the one who got me into gaming so I could see a positive female role-model in gaming and not just what the gaming press back then tried to make me think about women.

Wulfram · Sep 24, 2018

John Rabbit said:
The broad strokes of the "Hit Her Game Spot" article are actually how I got my ex-wife interested in games. But the way the article is written (apparently by a woman?) as though women are docile, game-hating animals to be trained is appalling.

That article reads like there's a decent article buried in it, but they felt they had to layer on this half-joking misogyny to appeal to their audience

ubercheez · Sep 24, 2018

JammerLammy said:
Six games

Um excuse me, over six games.

dlauv · Sep 24, 2018

Boys' Club

It's interesting how the internet has blown the doors off of curation in so many years and people more or less have the same volume of megaphone. A lot of issues were brought to light which were stifled. Backlash is much harder to control, and more women are gaming now than ever before.

I was never into pin-up culture as a kid. I found it gross. However, I can't help but have nostalgia while looking at these. They really thought this was badass.

hydrophilic attack · Sep 24, 2018

the fuck is this shit

Deleted member 11413 · Sep 24, 2018

devSin said:
And you feel the need to say this because?

I'm pretty sure nobody would disagree with you, despite your statement attempting to serve as a "correction" to things that nobody was saying or even implying.

These magazines are a reflection of a problem that still exists today. Everybody knows they didn't cause it, and nobody thinks that somehow they are primarily responsible for creating hate movements a decade later.

I'm not correcting anything. I'm simply giving my perspective as someone who had no exposure to magazines like this yet was still impacted heavily by the rampant misogyny and objectification rampant on the internet. Talking about how these magazines reveal that "it's no surprise gamergate exists" seems like missing the forest for the trees to me.

Windrunner · Sep 24, 2018

Selina said:
Yeah, they were trash, not like we've advanced much though, as much as people like to think we have.

I really disagree there; games magazines at least in the UK are done with their lads mag phase. Compare the Official Xbox and PlayStation magazines now to 15 years ago, it's genuinely night and day. OPM in particular is very good about having women who are permanent members of staff as well as freelancers.

Deleted member 19742 · Sep 24, 2018

hydrophilic attack said:
the fuck is this shit

I'd...really like to know the thought process behind that EGM Rumble Roses article. I'm genuinely blown away. I'm not sure what outdoes it in shamelessness and "way to make ourselves look really dumb". Like, even when it first came out, it must have looked really dumb and creepy.

kaytee · Sep 24, 2018

I remember seeing things like this and booth babes when I was younger and being so hurt by it. I grew up playing video games but all the sexist crap made me feel like an outsider. (Not that I really feel like less of an outsider now.)

Gotta love all the people here trying to dismiss 2006 as ~so long ago~ like feminism was an unknown concept at the time. I was having all the same run-a-round conversations about sexism in games online then as I do now. The only difference now is most journalists are finally on the right side of history and there's marginally less dismissal from the "community."

Early 2000s gaming magazine coverage is a dumpsterfire (Read Mod note in OP)

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