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Dragnipur

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
741
Do you believe it would be racist for black people to prefer a black representative in that position and not a white person, or to decline a white person in favor of a black person? We don't know the extent of the search they did to fill the position so we can't really say if they looked at other qualified candidates. She already worked there so it wouldn't be a stretch to think they maybe had her in mind or offered it to her first. I asked you another question as well, can you point me to any other time on Era you have advocated for minority causes? This isn't a slight against you, but in these situations tensions run high when white people feel like they are being "attacked" and it acts as a flashpoint where people would not otherwise participate in the conversation.
No that wouldn't be racist, as a black person could bring actual life experience to the table (and avoid this controversy). It's not racist to prefer someone of your own race to champion your culture. It is racist to say "this person cannot have this job position for any reason whatsoever because shes white". I've mostly been on the videogame side so I haven't participated in many of these discussions.
 

Skii

Member
Oct 28, 2017
223
Is there any proof that a black person with similar credentials/experience applied for the job and got rejected?
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,646
No that wouldn't be racist, as a black person could bring actual life experience to the table (and avoid this controversy). It's not racist to prefer someone of your own race to champion your culture. It is racist to say "this person cannot have this job position for any reason whatsoever because shes white".
I actually don't think it ever needs to come to saying that when I think about it, only if we are to believe out of all the people in the world they couldn't find a qualified black candidate for the job. Can we really say they looked that hard? I don't know, we don't know. I also don't think you have to say it because it doesn't/shouldn't need to be said maybe. A white person wouldn't play Malcolm X in a movie, you don't have to say "no white people can apply", for example.

I've mostly been on the videogame side so I haven't participated in many of these discussions.
Thank you for answering honestly.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
I actually don't think it ever needs to come to saying that when I think about it, only if we are to believe out of all the people in the world they couldn't find a qualified black candidate for the job. Can we really say they looked that hard? I don't know, we don't know. I also don't think you have to say it because it doesn't/shouldn't need to be said maybe. A white person wouldn't play Malcolm X in a movie, you don't have to say "no white people can apply", for example.


Thank you for answering honestly.
From what I understand, this woman is literally one of the reasons why there is a hip hop initiative at the Smithsonian at all. She's been working on that particular branch since 2006. From the way it look, this curation is a natural extension of the kind of work she has been doing for the past decade. This gives her expertise and connections that are invaluable to making something like this even happen in the first place, let alone making it as good as it deserves to be. So no, I don't think it's at all surprising that they "didn't find someone more qualified".
 

Aliand

Member
Oct 28, 2017
890
I actually don't think it ever needs to come to saying that when I think about it, only if we are to believe out of all the people in the world they couldn't find a qualified black candidate for the job. Can we really say they looked that hard? I don't know, we don't know. I also don't think you have to say it because it doesn't/shouldn't need to be said maybe. A white person wouldn't play Malcolm X in a movie, you don't have to say "no white people can apply", for example.


Thank you for answering honestly.

A black man could be the next James Bond, it is about time we stopped bringing everything to the skin colour. If the lady is qualified and loves what she works on, let her be.

As for the fact that they did not look for a black candidate, that is an assumption. How many did apply/were interested, only the management knows.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,821
But doesn't that serve as examples of white people stepping into black-dominated areas and redefining the culture? There's not exactly a shortage of that happening.
Its exactly what happened to House/Techno. Both genres started and originated in black-dominated circles, only to now progress into a scene that is mostly all-white with little to no nods towards it roots.

I love the stuff, but man it is a bit disheartenening knowing how whitewashed their image has become. Black people don't even know that stuff is apart of their culture, which is a damn shame.
 

Tom Penny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,212
User Banned (3 Days): Trolling a sensitive thread
Not only is she white. Is a woman qualified to speak on hip hop which was created by men?
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,673
Its exactly what happened to House/Techno. Both genres started and originated in black-dominated circles, only to now progress into a scene that is mostly all-white with little to no nods towards it roots.

I love the stuff, but man it is a bit disheartenening knowing how whitewashed their image has become. Black people don't even know that stuff is apart of their culture, which is a damn shame.
I automatically assume at this point that any popular cultural staple had some black folks helping to spearhead it.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,188
This sentiment peeves me, because it handwaves and whitewashes who the purveyors of hip-hop have been while once again forgetting who the biggest societal losers are for sincerely partaking in the culture. Hip-hop is black American culture.

Hip-hop is black American culture.

It doesn't matter if non-black people participate in it in the same way it that non-Chinese people learning kung fu doesn't suddenly means it's not a Chinese cultural staple.

Hip-hop is ours.

Furthermore, this subject cannot be had in good faith if you're not operating on the fact that we live in a world that is the result of European colonialism and white supremacy. Her hiring may be without fault based on her credentials but it cannot and should not ever be divorced from that context.
This dont seem to get though some people heads here at all and thats frustrating as hell.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
I actually don't think it ever needs to come to saying that when I think about it, only if we are to believe out of all the people in the world they couldn't find a qualified black candidate for the job. Can we really say they looked that hard? I don't know, we don't know. I also don't think you have to say it because it doesn't/shouldn't need to be said maybe. A white person wouldn't play Malcolm X in a movie, you don't have to say "no white people can apply", for example.

Thank you for answering honestly.
This wasn't like a job posting with people applying and people having resumes and interviews. She has been working on this collection for 12 years obtaining donations to show to the public with the explicit blessing from the people who donated those items, lobbied the museum to host her section and they approved of her work and agreed to host it.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,646
From what I understand, this woman is literally one of the reasons why there is a hip hop initiative at the Smithsonian at all. She's been working on that particular branch since 2006. From the way it look, this curation is a natural extension of the kind of work she has been doing for the past decade. This gives her expertise and connections that are invaluable to making something like this even happen in the first place. So no, I don't think it's at all surprising that they "didn't find someone more qualified".
That is a fair point, but you could also say she could have given her connections to another person and done everything to make sure they succeeded in the position as someone who obviously had a lot of love for the project, that she could still be a great resource on the project.

I'm a white dude so I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong specifically, that isn't my call to make in this instance, I have an opinion like anyone else but that's all it is, but I don't like that people (not you specifically) are so dismissive of the notion that people could have a reasonable issue with it and I think it's a good situation to talk some stuff out.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
That is a fair point, but you could also say she could have given her connections to another person and done everything to make sure they succeeded in the position as someone who obviously had a lot of love for the project, that she could still be a great resource on the project.

I'm a white dude so I'm not trying to say what's right or wrong specifically, that isn't my call to make in this instance, I have an opinion like anyone else but that's all it is, but I don't like that people (not you specifically) are so dismissive of the notion that people could have a reasonable issue with it and I think it's a good situation to talk some stuff out.
That's absolutely ludicrous.
 

Skii

Member
Oct 28, 2017
223
I misread. But to answer your question, no one knows for certain. It's just very hard to believe that they had made an earnest effort to find someone black to fill this role and were unable to do so.

Wait, we're saying that the NMAAHC didnt make an earnest effort for black representation?
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Wait, we're saying that the NMAAHC didnt make an earnest effort for black representation?

We're saying she was chosen because she had long been involved in collecting hip hop at the Smithsonian. Why spend money in recruiting efforts when there's someone right there who is ready and willing to do the job at zero risk of doing it poorly?

Their efforts to hire black for other roles were successful. You can't tell me an institution this prominent failed to find a black candidate that was similarly qualified.
 

Arkestry

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,920
London
It kinda feels like you arent arguing in good faith

We're saying she was chosen because she had long been involved in collecting hip hop at the Smithsonian. Why spend money in recruiting efforts when there's someone right there who is ready and willing to do the job at zero risk of doing it poorly?

Their efforts to hire black for other roles were successful. You can't tell me an institution this prominent failed to find a black candidate that was similarly qualified.

Look at the bold.
 

Loudninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,188
Some of you really trying to say that there are no black person was qualified for our own history are you kidding me right now?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
We're saying she was chosen because she had long been involved in collecting hip hop at the Smithsonian. Why spend money in recruiting efforts when there's someone right there who is ready and willing to do the job at zero risk of doing it poorly?

Their efforts to hire black for other roles were successful. You can't tell me an institution this prominent failed to find a black candidate that was similarly qualified.
The institution is proud of both the largely black representation in their ranks, as well as the diversity and representation from other races in the organization as well. What exactly do you want? I think expecting the museum to exclusively employ African American individuals is extremist.

Some of you really trying to say that there are no black person was qualified for our own history are you kidding me right now?
The people involved with the NMAAHC are largely black, including leadership. There are lots of African American individuals telling African American history at this museum.
 

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,693
What utter nonsense.

So only Egyptians can curate museum exhibits of artifacts from ancient egypt? No.

Only white people can curate exhibits of Viking culture? No.

Only Chinese people can curate etc.
 

Skii

Member
Oct 28, 2017
223
We're saying she was chosen because she had long been involved in collecting hip hop at the Smithsonian. Why spend money in recruiting efforts when there's someone right there who is ready and willing to do the job at zero risk of doing it poorly?

Their efforts to hire black for other roles were successful. You can't tell me an institution this prominent failed to find a black candidate that was similarly qualified.

So we're upset that a business internally promoted an employee who has dedicated many years to her field of expertise at said business? It really is difficult to comprehend how the NMAAHC of all institutions is working against black representation.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
The institution is proud of both the largely black representation in their ranks, as well as the diversity and representation from other races in the organization as well. What exactly do you want? I think expecting the museum to exclusively employ African American individuals is extremist.

How is it extremist? Why does the idea of black people owning things frighten people so much?
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Some of you really trying to say that there are no black person was qualified for our own history are you kidding me right now?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the people at the NMAAHC like working with her? Why do they have to look for another person when they have someone perfectly capable on staff? Should they just pass her by because of what you think is best for the representation of black culture? And instead of claiming to know what black people as a monolith want in terms of this particular situation, maybe you should also take into account the opinions of the black people she works with, be it her bosses, her colleagues, or her primary sources. She wouldn't be in the position she's in today, presumably, if those people didn't approve of her work.
 

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
9,693
It's only nonsense in a vacuum where white supremacy never existed.

What has white supremacy to do with this?

So no one is allowed to be an expert or knowledgeable enough to do the job regarding something from a culture unless they themselves are a product of that culture?

Don't you see the flaw in that?
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,646
I think you're underestimating the amount of work that would take. She has established connections that to "transfer" would involve rebuilding relationships and trust, which would take a ton of time (years). That isn't feasibly possible.
It's the Smithsonian, I bet they have the resources, just a question of if they want to devote the resources to it.
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
It's worth noting that:
1) This exhibit has been open to the public for almost a year (October 2017), and nobody has had a problem with a white woman playing a role in procuring and curating artifacts until just recently.
2) There's nothing that I can find that suggests Ms. Burnside is THE curator of the exhibit as opposed to A curator. The idea that she is THE curator comes from Rasta's poorly made OP that is based entirely on some random dude's outraged tweet that a white woman is working in hip hop history and is hardly well sourced. I did find mentions of another person mentioned to work alongside Ms. Burnside when it came to artifact procurement, whose job title is "curator": one Dr. Kevin Strait. He is black, if you're wondering.
 

Dragnipur

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
741
It's worth noting that:
1) This exhibit has been open to the public for almost a year (October 2017), and nobody has had a problem with a white woman playing a role in procuring and curating artifacts until just recently.
2) There's nothing that I can find that suggests Ms. Burnside is THE curator of the exhibit as opposed to A curator. The idea that she is THE curator comes from Rasta's poorly made OP that is based entirely on some random dude's outraged tweet that a white woman is working in hip hop history and is hardly well sourced. I did find mentions of another person mentioned to work alongside Ms. Burnside when it came to artifact procurement, whose job title is "curator": one Dr. Kevin Strait. He is black, if you're wondering.
How nice of the OP to leave out that piece of very important information..
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,673
So no one is allowed to be an expert or knowledgeable enough to do the job regarding something from a culture unless they themselves are a product of that culture?

Don't you see the flaw in that?
White individuals are allowed to be experts in hip-hop.

White people are not allowed to do it free of scrutiny from black people as a result of the fact that black culture is still routinely co-opted, downplayed, demonized, and destroyed by white people as a holdover from colonialization.

Nor are people in here trying to effectively argue that we shouldn't have agency over our own culture just because white people like the cool and lucrative aspects of it gonna be free from scrutiny either.

Hip-hop is black American culture, and no one else's. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
It's worth noting that:
1) This exhibit has been open to the public for almost a year (October 2017), and nobody has had a problem with a white woman playing a role in procuring and curating artifacts until just recently.
2) There's nothing that I can find that suggests Ms. Burnside is THE curator of the exhibit as opposed to A curator. The idea that she is THE curator comes from Rasta's poorly made OP that is based entirely on some random dude's outraged tweet that a white woman is working in hip hop history and is hardly well sourced. I did find mentions of another person mentioned to work alongside Ms. Burnside when it came to artifact procurement, whose job title is "curator": one Dr. Kevin Strait. He is black, if you're wondering.
You got a source for that?
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
White individuals are allowed to be experts in hip-hop.

White people are not allowed to do it free of scrutiny from black people as a result of the fact that black culture is still routinely co-opted, downplayed, and destroyed by white people as a holdover from colonialization.

Nor are people in here trying to effectively argue that we shouldn't have agency over our own culture just because white people like the cool and lucrative aspects of it gonna be free from scrutiny either.

Hip-hop is black American culture, and no one else's. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it.
Do you really think her work is free of scrutiny? I don't think the collection she curates is "hip hop through the lens of me, Timothy Anne Burnside". That goes especially if that comments about her not being the only curator on the initiative turns out to be true.

Maybe it'd actually pay to check out the collection, and see if there's something wrong with it. I feel like in terms of "scrutiny", that's where you'd ideally want to start. I think scrutiny based solely on her ethnicity isn't especially fruitful.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
I'm doubtful that they exhausted all eligible black candidates and found them all lacking for the position. I blame those involved with the process of selection, certainly not the woman who got the job.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Are you advocating that the NMAAHC should take a hard line stance on only hiring African Americans? (Might take me a bit of time to respond to your response if you chose to make one. I'm off to work, not ignoring you)
I mean, why not? Why shouldn't black people be given center stage at a museum where their history and culture is the subject, in a country that denies them opportunities left and right? Why does it feel like you're trying to make me feel bad for having those feelings?
 
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