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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I dread doing a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I need a mental health consultation for every action in my life.

I fully support the current trend of mental health awareness, diagnosis and treatment, but this particular example smells more like kids trying to get out of assignments.

I'd rather us as a society avoid another gluten sensitivity self diagnosis craze.
The bolded is a strawman; I never suggested that was necessary. I said that we could be teaching anxiety coping techniques in schools. The educational environment is very anxiety inducing and stressful for students. So perhaps we should try to mitigate that somehow.

Schools are never going to just get rid of public speaking because dislike of such assignments is trending with teens on social media, so if you are afraid of that you can rest assured.
 

DukeBlue

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,502
Teenagers in developed countries truly are coddled babies, huh?

This entire protest is ridiculous and unless a kid has a diagnosable condition, they shouldn't be exempt from presentations.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
It means go through the anxiety and do the thing that is expected of you instead of hiding from it. Because it is difficult and because it will help you.

I get anxious for very stupid reasons (but some good ones). If I avoided the cause of that anxiety, my life would fall apart.

Public speaking is anxiety inducing to many people, myself included. But it turns out, I'm pretty damn good at it. And I didn't get that way from avoiding it.

I didn't get good at driving by avoiding it (one of the big ones when I was young was driving, now I do it 10 hours a week in heavy traffic and it causes me zero anxiety).

Being downtown and finding parking and all that used to give me intense anxiety. Then I moved to the city and overcame it by being immersed in it.

When I said "get over it", I did not mean "get over anxiety". I meant that you need to get it over with. The thing that is causing it. Not the anxiety itself.

I understand how it may appear otherwise, but it was meant to get your attention before expanding on it. Which I did.

Hope that makes sense. I'm just very passionate about this subject.

But the entire reason that its difficult for people with anxiety to get it over with is because they have anxiety. While you might feel like you're saying something completely different, you're still essentially telling people with anxiety to just suck it up and do it anyways. Which hopefully is clear to you why that won't work for people who have serious issues with anxiety.

There are coping mechanisms, medications, and treatments that we offer to people to help them take those first steps and generally those steps are offered through trained professionals. But telling them to just get it over with is counterproductive and really comes off as the same as telling someone depressed "Just be happy" You're giving them the end-goal and none of the steps in-between and expect them to feel that's going to solve their issues.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,272
New York
So it depends on if you believe the risk of people potentially exploiting it is worth the mental health of the individuals who would stand to benefit. Mental health is a very real issue, I would say more than a potential issue in students maybe mass-exploiting it.
People in general lie their asses off especially when it benefits them. Asking for some level of proof helps to deter that. Either that or make the alternative really annoying like writing a 5 page paper.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Teenagers in developed countries truly are coddled babies, huh?

This entire protest is ridiculous and unless a kid has a diagnosable condition, they shouldn't be exempt from presentations.

Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse by assuming that these kids are self-diagnosed. Seems like you're inventing a narrative because it makes a convenient excuse to whine about "kids these days"
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
So it depends on if you believe the risk of people potentially exploiting it is worth the mental health of the individuals who would stand to benefit. Mental health is a very real issue, I would say more than a potential issue in students maybe mass-exploiting it.
The way you've written this suggests it isn't harmful to the mental health of individuals with diagnosed conditions if it's exploited, but it being open to exploitation also harms things for those who actually have been assessed disabilities.

To provide a clear example, one disability accommodation available in my location is that there are a limited number of university places open to students with disabilities who perform below the minimum entry grade average for their desired course; your suggestion to open disability accommodations to anybody who self-reports a disability would only result in students with professionally assessed disabilities competing with people who self-assess (but have no actual medical knowledge as to whether their experience actually reaches being a disability) as disabled but may not actually have a disability (and aren't hampered in the same way that those who have been medically assessed are) and further restricted from university places.

Even on a smaller scale, things like alternative rooms for exams, access to assistive technology in the classroom like Livescribe Pens, and computer resources for mitigating hand-writing issues are limited resources.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse by assuming that these kids are self-diagnosed. Seems like you're inventing a narrative because it makes a convenient excuse to whine about "kids these days"

I assume that his acknowledgment of those with diagnosed conditions would apply to those with already diagnosed by a medical professional. No need to misrepresent what was said.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
The way you've written this suggests it isn't harmful to the mental health of individuals with diagnosed conditions if it's exploited, but it being open to exploitation also harms things for those who actually have been assessed disabilities.

To provide a clear example, one disability accommodation available in my location is that there are a limited number of university places open to students with disabilities who perform below the minimum entry grade average for their desired course; your suggestion to open disability accommodations to anybody who self-reports a disability would only result in students with professionally assessed disabilities competing with people who self-assess (but have no actual medical knowledge as to whether their experience actually reaches being a disability) as disabled but may not actually have a disability (and aren't hampered in the same way that those who have been medically assessed are) and further restricted from university places.

We are discussing the idea of providing accommodations for people with public speaking anxieties. It's not a limited sum that only so many people can have.

I assume that his acknowledgment of those with diagnosed conditions would apply to those with already diagnosed by a medical professional. No need to misrepresent what was said.

The user has no idea whether the people being discussed have legitimate mental issues. If we are discussing self-diagnoses, there are many people who have self-diagnosed and still have valid mental issues.
 

DukeBlue

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,502
Seems like you're putting the cart before the horse by assuming that these kids are self-diagnosed. Seems like you're inventing a narrative because it makes a convenient excuse to whine about "kids these days"
I'm not whining about "kids these days", I'm 20 years old. I'm an immigrant from Mexico and I can assure you neither me nor anyone else like myself ever complained about stuff like this. It truly boggles my mind that this is a thing people are protesting about
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I'm not whining about "kids these days", I'm 20 years old. I'm an immigrant from Mexico and I can assure you neither me nor anyone else like myself ever complained about stuff like this. It truly boggles my mind that this is a thing people are protesting about

Then I recommend you educate yourself on mental illnesses more than you have. You're young, you have a lot to learn.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
We are discussing the idea of providing accommodations for people with public speaking anxieties. It's not a limited sum that only so many people can have.
The user I quoted talked about how some people do not have access to psychiatrists or psychologists to receive a diagnosis. My reply was centred on opening up disability accommodations (not specifically accommodations for speeches) to anybody who self-assess, their reply to that never brought it back to speeches, and my reply was given in that context.

The issue of people not having access to mental health services is not to open up disability accommodations to anybody who self report.
 

DukeBlue

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,502
Ah, the good old "starving children in Africa" whataboutism.
Yes that is exactly what I wrote, thank you

Then I recommend you educate yourself on mental illnesses more than you have. You're young, you have a lot to learn.

Yikes. I know that anxiety is a thing and I said that kids with a diagnosable condition should have an alternative. However for 99% of kids, its just nerves and they're too young to understand that public speaking only helps them
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
The user I quoted talked about how some people do not have access to psychiatrists or psychologists to receive a diagnosis. My reply was centred on opening up disability accommodations (not specifically accommodations for speeches) to anybody who self-assess, their reply to that never brought it back to speeches, and my reply was given in that context.

In that case, yes, access to psychiatric treatment should absolutely be available to more people. That so many people do not have access is a part of why we have such a mental health crisis today. If there are more people seeking mental health treatment, there are more people providing mental health treatment.

Yes that is exactly what I wrote, thank you



Yikes. I know that anxiety is a thing and I said that kids with a diagnosable condition should have an alternative. However for 99% of kids, its just nerves and they're too young to understand that public speaking only helps them

I get the feeling that people who diagnose people as not having a valid mental illness is a bigger issue in mental health than people who self-diagnose.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
I suffer from severe anxiety, and have since I was in middle school. My absolute worst fear for much of my life has been public speaking. In my sophomore year in high school, I actually completely froze during a presentation in my history class - I was looking down at my script and just froze. I couldn't talk, move, or even look up at the audience. I was just standing there, frozen, unable to do anything. After about 6-8 seconds, kids in the class started giggling. After about 10 seconds, the teacher asked if I was OK. And finally about 20 seconds or so later (felt like hours), my teacher finally (I think) figured out what was going on, and came over and told me I could go sit down.

The worsened as I moved on to college. At the beginning of each semester, I would scrutinize the syllabus for each course and would immediately drop any course that required me to give a presentation (even if it was in a group). It became so bad that I eventually reached a wall - there were upper level courses in my degree that required public speaking, and there was no way around it. So, instead of working on myself, my train of thought, and getting my anxiety under control, I continued to run, and actually switched majors to something I didn't want to pursue, and something that would ultimately net me a smaller paycheck after college. All because of my own fear and anxiety.

After two semesters of working of working towards this new degree, I realized that I just couldn't do this. I couldn't waste my life by continuing to run from my own anxiety and mortal fear of public speaking. It was controlling my life, and I knew if I didn't do something then it would limit me and control me forever.

So, I started seeing a psychologist. Over the summer, we worked on CBT techniques, and I also started a low dose prescription of Propranolol, which was only to be used situationally when my anxiety started to peak. I reclassified myself over the summer to my original degree and scheduled the courses I needed to take to finish it out - out of the 5 I was taking for that fall semester, 3 required multiple presentations.

I remember what I felt like the night of the drop deadline - it was absolute fear. I took some Propranolol, and somehow resisted the urge to drop the courses and withdraw from the university. I woke up the next morning frozen with fear. Now, I didn't have a choice. It was either make all of these presentations in all of these courses so that I could pass them, or not show up and fail every single one of them, which would derail my entire career.

I continued to see my psychologist over the next month, leading up to the first presentation that I had to give. The first speech I had to give was about 10 minutes in length in front of 30 people, and I practiced 15+ times per day in the week leading up to it. What happened that sophomore year in high school was still so fresh in my mind, and I was obsessing about not letting such an incident happen again. But, I knew I was merely a victim to my own anxiety, and that no matter how well I knew my speech, a simple anxiety attack could render me speechless in an instant.

On the day of the presentation, I started taking my Propranolol. In fact, I doubled my dose before the class started. I got called up to start, and took my computer and notes to the front of the class and noticed one simple thing - I wasn't nervous. Physically, I couldn't feel a thing. No pounding heart. No sweaty palms. No voice cracking. No butterfly sensation in my stomach. My thoughts were clear, and my physical symptoms were gone. I opened my mouth to speak and said a few sentences. After the first 10 seconds, I started getting excited - because I knew that I could do this. And not just get through it....but I could do it well.

Yes, it was the Propranolol that was masking the physical symptoms. But the CBT had helped as well. Both of these allowed me to get through that semester, and allowed me to ultimately finish my degree. Now, in my job, I have to give presentations on a weekly basis. Do I like it? No. Do I freak out about it still? Not at all. I no longer need the Propranolol (for really significant presentations I still sometimes take half a dose) and stopped going to my psychologist years ago. And I don't just get through these talks now - I excel at them. My coworkers frequently refer to me as an "amazing" public speaker, and often ask what my secret is. I simply tell them it all came down to practice and exposure. I struggled with this more than anyone I know, but I made it through.

I guess my point is that public speaking is an essential human skill. You need to be able to present in front of others and communicate ideas clearly. If you're going to be protected from this in middle school or high school, then you're going to have to do it in college. If you somehow avoid it during college, then you'll have to do it eventually at work. I know more than anyone else how painful and dreadful this can be for someone with anxiety, and can empathize with them in ways that most people can't. It sucks. It absolutely sucks. But you have to do it. I waited way too long to seek out help and it negatively affected me for years. People struggling with anxiety absolutely need to get help - but the answer isn't to let your anxiety control you by avoiding any anxiety inducing situations. I learned that firsthand. Get help for your problems so you can become the best version of yourself.

This is a good post.

I am also of the sentiment that avoiding these situations simply isn't the answer. If you face anxiety, get the help you need. School is one thing, but the professional world waits for no one.
 

BossLackey

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,789
Kansas City, MO
But the entire reason that its difficult for people with anxiety to get it over with is because they have anxiety. While you might feel like you're saying something completely different, you're still essentially telling people with anxiety to just suck it up and do it anyways. Which hopefully is clear to you why that won't work for people who have serious issues with anxiety.

There are coping mechanisms, medications, and treatments that we offer to people to help them take those first steps and generally those steps are offered through trained professionals. But telling them to just get it over with is counterproductive and really comes off as the same as telling someone depressed "Just be happy" You're giving them the end-goal and none of the steps in-between and expect them to feel that's going to solve their issues.

I don't know how else to say it. I have intense anxiety. I have felt EXACTLY what these kids have felt for much smaller things.

What exactly are you suggesting then? That all these kids have medically diagnosed anxiety disorders? Because I do, and I don't go to my therapist or psychiatrist every time I'm anxious about something coming up. Do you know why? Because that would be every other day.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Yes that is exactly what I wrote, thank you



Yikes. I know that anxiety is a thing and I said that kids with a diagnosable condition should have an alternative. However for 99% of kids, its just nerves and they're too young to understand that public speaking only helps them
You said "Teenagers in developed countries are coddled babies" because they have anxiety about public speaking. As if having anxiety about public speaking isn't a significant enough issue to be worth having a conversation about, because people in non-developed countries have more pressing issues to deal with. It's a whataboutism, and adds nothing to the discussion.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
All of the people being discussed right now don't need to all have theoretically valid medical diagnoses. Just enough of them. And honestly, the number of people whose mental issues go undiagnosed is a bigger problem than self-diagnoses.
 

Deleted member 2426

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
There's a level of functional / manageable anxiety that should be confronted, and public speaking helps a lot with it.

There is also clinical level of anxiety that should be managed in different ways. Emotionally torturing people with clinical levels of social-performance anxiety is cruel. Teachers should be flexible in this regard.
 

Deleted member 46429

Self-requested ban
Banned
Aug 4, 2018
2,185
Getting over it isn't necessarily beating it and never feeling anxious again. Knowing how to cope and deal with uncomfortable situations as they come is beneficial just the same though.
You say that as if there's a healthy coping mechanism that somehow jives with my anxiety.

My coping mechanism is basically hope I have enough spoons that I don't go into meltdown/shutdown and that isn't healthy; my mental endurance isn't getting better and I'm not sure if I'll always have those spoons, e.g.

My point is, I don't see a healthy coping strategy that doesn't also somehow remove the anxiety I feel and I also know that anxiety hasn't gotten better *despite* doing a lot of oral presentations. Why yes, that is a catch-22 and I don't know what a good solution is.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
All of the people being discussed right now don't need to all have theoretically valid medical diagnoses. Just enough of them. And honestly, the number of people whose mental issues go undiagnosed is a bigger problem than self-diagnoses.
The solution to people having access to mental health services is not allowing self-assessed mental health disorders to be on the same level as those with a medically diagnosed disorder.

A medical specialist has a level of experience with specific mental health disorders (and what the presentation of a 'genuine' disorder looks like) that teachers and middle school students just cannot have. A medical specialist can give information on whether a certain accommodation is necessary or beneficial to that individual. You can have a certain medical disorder but not need (or be granted) accommodations because you do not need them.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,637
The way you've written this suggests it isn't harmful to the mental health of individuals with diagnosed conditions if it's exploited, but it being open to exploitation also harms things for those who actually have been assessed disabilities.
We don't know to what extent it would be exploited under any given system so we can't really say.
Just to allay any criticism that no alternative solutions are being offered, here's one: A student relays their concerns to a teacher or school official, they are exempted from public speaking/presentations and are referred to the school guidance counselor where they can be further referred to mental health resources or any other resources that can help the child deal with their issues. Once they are working with a professional on coping strategies *then* they can, at the discretion of their doctor, begin to participate in a way that matches their plan of treatment.
I don't see this being exploited much, very few people are going to go through the trouble of seeing a guidance counselor or school official to start a treatment plan to get out of a presentation.
Even on a smaller scale, things like alternative rooms for exams, access to assistive technology in the classroom like Livescribe Pens, and computer resources for mitigating hand-writing issues are limited resources.
Yes, we absolutely need more resources in those areas.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
The solution to people having access to mental health services is not allowing self-assessed mental health disorders to be on the same level as those with a medically diagnosed disorder.

A medical specialist has a level of experience with specific mental health disorders (and what the presentation of a 'genuine' disorder looks like) that teachers and middle school students just cannot have. A medical specialist can give information on whether a certain accommodation is necessary or beneficial to that individual. You can have a certain medical disorder but not need (or be granted) accommodations because you do not need them.

But there are people who do, indeed, have valid medical issues that cannot possibly be diagnosed because they don't have access. The solution is not to shrug and say "get over it, what if you're a liar"
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
I don't know how else to say it. I have intense anxiety. I have felt EXACTLY what these kids have felt for much smaller things.

What exactly are you suggesting then? That all these kids have medically diagnosed anxiety disorders? Because I do, and I don't go to my therapist or psychiatrist every time I'm anxious about something coming up. Do you know why? Because that would be every other day.

I'm suggesting that we help them get the help that they need. While just powering through your anxiety might work for you, it won't work for everyone out there. Everyone's issues are unique and varying, and that's why we need to help them see professionals. The issue comes when we start assuming that people who tell us they have anxiety don't actually have it, that they're just trying to get out of things that make them uncomfortable, or that we assume that everyone has access to mental health professionals. We have a mental health thread here on the site for instance, where a lot of people come for advice or to vent because they just can't afford or see professionals for whatever reason. Just because they don't have a diagnosis doesn't make their problems any less real, and teenagers especially might have a harder time speaking up about what's going on around them. We have such a stigma towards mental health and getting help, and piling that on top of all the nonsense that people deal with in high school will make it hard for people to speak up about the things that are bothering them, especially if they suffer from anxiety.

I'm sure that there are some students who would try and take advantage of the situation, but that's no reason to discount the very real issues that exist when it comes to the mental health of students and the people around us. That's no reason to assume the worst of people who speak up about the issues they face either. We don't know any of the people in the article, and its wholly unfair to assume that they are all trying to take advantage of a system that doesn't even exist.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
We don't know to what extent it would be exploited under any given system so we can't really say.
If we "can't say", the solution isn't to open them up to anybody because 'hey we don't know whether this will have positive or negative effects'. It would be necessary to study what level of exploitation would occur before enacting any changes rather than simply proposing them as positive changes because the idea may sound good.If the system is open to self-assessment then diligent students are penalised in comparison to students who cheat the system to make their experience easier while simultaneously trivialising mental health conditions and adding an additional barrier to disabled students. But this is still beating around the core issue of access to mental health services and not whether we should accept self-reported disabilities.

But there are people who do, indeed, have valid medical issues that cannot possibly be diagnosed because they don't have access. The solution is not to shrug and say "get over it, what if you're a liar"

Obviously. The solution is to increase access to mental health services (e.g. through earlier intervention and psychologists in school staff who can screen earlier and refer to specialists) where they can be diagnosed if they do have a medically valid disability, at which point they can then get access to accommodations, as I've said from the first post I made in the thread.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
It's an important skill to have so I don't think it should be eliminated, but it shouldn't be the grade either. Like if someone did a kickass job researching and compiling information and is an awkward presenter, that shouldn't average out to a C.

All the "I had to do it so you should too" takes can get bent, though. That is never a good reason to keep things the way they are. I would hope future generations of students wouldn't have to deal with some of the shit I had to.
 

Ms.Galaxy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,653
I hope you got the help you needed, after I got CBT myself everything was more clear for me personally. My therapist told me I'm never in control of my thoughts, emotions, sensations, what I do or what I didnt not do etc. Eventually I accepted it that i was not in control of my body and how it reacts. The one question the therapist kept asking me was "whats the worst that is going to happen to you"

"well I'll get dizzy"
"so, thats the worst that will happen"
"what if I pass out"
"then you pass out, people pass out all the time."

It was a tough love approach but worked. I feel your suicidal tendencies were due to you having enough with the disorder and feeling as if you were a burden so obviously that will cause you to be depressed etc. However I hope you are better

You're not wrong about the suicidal thoughts and attempts, but they were caused by a mix of my PTSD, GAD, and MDD. The anxiety attacks just pushed me harder to do it because it hurt so much and one of my greatest fears was always dying painfully and alone. All three disorders basically fed onto each other and made shit worse.

Also, what your therapist did with you was also what mine did with me to a certain degree along with exposure therapy and some sort of investigation-like form of therapy where I observed my symptoms and try to realize nothing is wrong, that I was healthy enough from recent tests and this was caused from anxiety. They also trained me to find the trigger of the attack, and think critically about it to show there was no danger.

For example: "A crowded area in the food court, sure there are a lot of people and they could hurt me, but there are also many eye-witnesses so the chances of that are low. I also have nothing that makes me stand out to be targeted, so why would someone attack a stranger like me. While yes, someone could come in and start a mass shooting, the chances are really low for that would happen because there are security guards all around and I live in an area with heavy gun control that statistically shows lower chances of incidents like that to happen. I'd have a higher chance of getting hit by lightning than I do of getting hurt here in the food court."

It really helped a lot and over time the pain and frequency of these attacks just lessened more and more, and by 21 it kind just vanished and I was set on getting my life back in order. Got my GED in around two months, went to college shortly after, made friends, got a job, started dating and so on. In turn, that helped with my depression and I felt genuinely content and happy. I'm doing great these days; sure I get one or two attacks every few months, but that's a drastic improvement and I'm happy to be free from the shackles that held my life.

If there's one positive thing I can say about this entire experience I went through is that it made a good topic to write an essay in college writing for my final. Gave me a perfect score with my professor commenting that it was captivating.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,497
You say that as if there's a healthy coping mechanism that somehow jives with my anxiety.

My coping mechanism is basically hope I have enough spoons that I don't go into meltdown/shutdown and that isn't healthy; my mental endurance isn't getting better and I'm not sure if I'll always have those spoons, e.g.

My point is, I don't see a healthy coping strategy that doesn't also somehow remove the anxiety I feel and I also know that anxiety hasn't gotten better *despite* doing a lot of oral presentations. Why yes, that is a catch-22 and I don't know what a good solution is.

It's probably a good thing that I'm having a discussion about general anxiety over presentations rather than a full blown panic disorder then. Sorry if I missed an earlier part of your message detailing otherwise (thread has gotten big). This is exactly why it's stressed that those who need help, get it from a professional though. So that they can work on it. I do wish you the best of luck with what you're dealing with. That doesn't sound fun by any means.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,637
If we "can't say", the solution isn't to open them up to anybody because 'hey we don't know whether this will have positive or negative effects', the solution is to study what level of exploitation would occur before enacting any changes rather than simply proposing them as positive changes because the idea may sound good. If the system is open to self-assessment then diligent students are penalised in comparison to students who cheat the system to make their experience easier while simultaneously trivialising mental health conditions and adding an additional barrier to disabled students.
I really don't think there is as much harm as you make out of a few missed classroom presentations while a student is being assessed and I think you're making a big assumption that students would cheat the system I presented.
 

JK-Money

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,558
You're not wrong about the suicidal thoughts and attempts, but they were caused by a mix of my PTSD, GAD, and MDD. The anxiety attacks just pushed me harder to do it because it hurt so much and one of my greatest fears was always dying painfully and alone. All three disorders basically fed onto each other and made shit worse.

Also, what your therapist did with you was also what mine did with me to a certain degree along with exposure therapy and some sort of investigation-like form of therapy where I observed my symptoms and try to realize nothing is wrong, that I was healthy enough from recent tests and this was caused from anxiety. They also trained me to find the trigger of the attack, and think critically about it to show there was no danger.

For example: "A crowded area in the food court, sure there are a lot of people and they could hurt me, but there are also many eye-witnesses so the chances of that are low. I also have nothing that makes me stand out to be targeted, so why would someone attack a stranger like me. While yes, someone could come in and start a mass shooting, the chances are really low for that would happen because there are security guards all around and I live in an area with heavy gun control that statistically shows lower chances of incidents like that to happen. I'd have a higher chance of getting hit by lightning than I do of getting hurt here in the food court."

It really helped a lot and over time the pain and frequency of these attacks just lessened more and more, and by 21 it kind just vanished and I was set on getting my life back in order. Got my GED in around two months, went to college shortly after, made friends, got a job, started dating and so on. In turn, that helped with my depression and I felt genuinely content and happy. I'm doing great these days; sure I get one or two attacks every few months, but that's a drastic improvement and I'm happy to be free from the shackles that held my life.

If there's one positive thing I can say about this entire experience I went through is that it made a good topic to write an essay in college writing for my final. Gave me a perfect score with my professor commenting that it was captivating.
THATS AWESOME, Im glad your doing well and some one helped you rationalize your fears much like mine. Whats the worst that can happen to me etc. The problem with anxiety much like mine and trigger is the what if scenerio etc. We actually made it fun by making up stupid scenarios etc. It's got to the point if I am about to have a panic attack or anxiety i can find the trigger right away and make something dumb out of it. i occasionally give myself anxiety attacks on purpose when I box or exercise/weight lifting. I sit and think of something that scares me to give me the flight/fight response and use the extra adrenaline in my body for a better performance. Sure im tired at the end but its fun to scare yourself at times. I know it was probably hell but I'm glad you faced your fears with the support you had, they are just that fears that cant hurt us, and I hope many more people like you will be able to do the same.
 

Deleted member 46429

Self-requested ban
Banned
Aug 4, 2018
2,185
I think y'all overestimate the value of professionals..

Go Google extreme male brain theory. That comes from Simon Baron-Cohen. He's, by trade, a professional on autistic kids. That isn't to say all autism professionals are like SBC, but there can be a major disconnect between what professionals (think they) understand and what the people they supposedly help experience. This overlaps so much with more problematic aspects of STEM culture, where personal/lived experience is undervalued.

And even if a disorder manages to have a sound mental health professional network, there are economic barriers to getting said help. It's not an exaggeration to say MH services are a privilege with how unaccessible they are.

Lastly, again, there's an assumption that with the right help we'll be able to overcome anything NTs can. No, sorry, sometimes society is inaccessible and we need to live life differently.

I'm not saying there's an easy solution to public speaking anxiety, but jfc, there's so much ableism here I'm not sure how much a conversation can be even had.
 

MBeanie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,875
What is wrong with the moderation of this thread, how is it not break ToS by calling people with Anxiety Disorder "cowards"?

This post is on page 1 and still nothing.
 

BossLackey

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,789
Kansas City, MO
I'm suggesting that we help them get the help that they need. While just powering through your anxiety might work for you, it won't work for everyone out there. Everyone's issues are unique and varying, and that's why we need to help them see professionals. The issue comes when we start assuming that people who tell us they have anxiety don't actually have it, that they're just trying to get out of things that make them uncomfortable, or that we assume that everyone has access to mental health professionals. We have a mental health thread here on the site for instance, where a lot of people come for advice or to vent because they just can't afford or see professionals for whatever reason. Just because they don't have a diagnosis doesn't make their problems any less real, and teenagers especially might have a harder time speaking up about what's going on around them. We have such a stigma towards mental health and getting help, and piling that on top of all the nonsense that people deal with in high school will make it hard for people to speak up about the things that are bothering them, especially if they suffer from anxiety.

I'm sure that there are some students who would try and take advantage of the situation, but that's no reason to discount the very real issues that exist when it comes to the mental health of students and the people around us. That's no reason to assume the worst of people who speak up about the issues they face either. We don't know any of the people in the article, and its wholly unfair to assume that they are all trying to take advantage of a system that doesn't even exist.

Thank you for the real, lengthy response. I legitimately appreciate it.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and I especially agree with the fact that many people have mental health issues. However, I want to clarify that while I don't believe all those kids have a legitimate anxiety disorder, I do believe the vast majority of them are experiencing difficult anxiety symptoms when presented with public speaking. As we all know and has been said in this thread earlier, it is a very common fear. So I'm not assuming that a lot of these kids are taking advantage of this, because I don't think that's the case. I think they're really do dislike it greatly and get anxious. However, I do think that an overwhelming majority of those kids should not be seeking professional help for these feelings in regards to this very specific situation. That would be tantamount to seeking mental help because you were anxious on your first day of work or when you're at the edge of a cliff.

I think the epidemic of anxiety disorders (and some other mental health issues) can largely be attributed to modern life-styles. Not that they are created from that, I think that is much more genetic and developmental, but that those symptoms are greatly exacerbated by the consumption of caffeine (which is very obviously a nervous system stimulant), a sedentary lifestyle, bad diet, and the incredibly complicated, post-agricultural life (among a bunch of other variables we don't know about I'm sure).

I think a large amount of people would find their anxiety symptoms all but disappear if they corrected some of or all of the above issues. Again, that would not cure them. You would have to cut out the fight or flight response to do that.

There are very obviously people with mental health issues that will not be affected by simply changing your lifestyle. I get depressed every once in a while, but it's absolutely not the hell that is clinical depression.
 

Hassel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,363
Getting out of your comfort zone is the key to self growth. You do a disservice to children by coddling them at this stage of development.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
I really don't think there is as much harm as you make out of a few missed classroom presentations while a student is being assessed and I think you're making a big assumption that students would cheat the system I presented.
If you're providing classroom accommodations for disabilities to anybody who self-reports a disability without requiring medical evidence why would you limit that to just giving classroom presentations? If you are limiting the accommodations you're delegitimising the student's claim anyway (I trust you enough to give you 'x' but not enough to give you 'y') but providing them some accommodations regardless.

Things like being able to type answers rather than write answers, take alternative assessments (e.g. an essay versus a presentation), additional time (10% to 50% depending on what specifically the exam is), and lower grade requirements (in limited places) to university courses are all very strong incentives for a student to self-report a disability. Students already cheat on exams (at a university level 68% of undergraduates have admitted to cheating on a written paper or test, and at a high-school level a similar figure: https://academicintegrity.org/statistics/) at high rates, so leaving the door open for an accepted way to cheat where you may be able to bypass things you're weak at (or get additional time which can in particular be highly advantageous) seems like an incredibly bad idea and leaves students with medically valid disabilities at an even further disadvantage.

EDIT: And people already misuse terms and stigmatise mental health disorders by claiming their behaviour is 'so OCD' (as an example) or conflating terms like 'depression' as a substitute for 'sad' (versus a depressive disorder) when it's relatively standard behaviour despite having no incentive to do so. Adding an incentive would only make this worse.
 
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Brewster123

Self-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,456
Charlottesville, VA
I'd hate to put even more responsibility on teachers, given how much they already have to deal with (and for little pay), but I think a teacher should, while the student is giving the presentation, be able to distinguish between those who didn't practice and those who suffer from anxiety. Up to a certain anxiety threshold, I think being forced into doing public speaking can help one cope and overcome their anxiety around others. For those people, being able forced to speak to a crowd will help break them out of their shell and get used to public speaking, which they will have to do later in life. Meanwhile, for those with absolutely crippling anxiety, the teacher and/or the parents of said student, ideally, would be able to recognize the anxiety attack, not punish him/her for it, and help him get treatment for combating the anxiety disorder.

I'm really hesitant to allow students to self-report disabilities as that may get abused by students as a way to avoid difficult assignments. Plus, it may result in some students who don't like public speaking skipping class presentations and as a result, impairing their ability to give speeches in the future.
 

brick-a20b

Member
Oct 25, 2017
181
I think more public speaking in schools is a good thing. Rather discussing about assigned topics, allow the presenter choose what he or she wants to talk about.

Just gave a speech at my Toastmaster meeting, it's anxiety inducing leading up to it, but afterwards I feel great.

I was not good at presenting in high school, I stuttered and didn't enunciate my words. It was a reason why I didn't put my name forward to be validictorian.
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
We'd like to clarify a something when it comes to the moderation of this thread:

The article and the tweet itself make do not make reference to anxiety disorders but to anxiety. Someone who dismisses the concerns of the article (public speaking and anxiety) is not necessarily dismissing anxiety disorders or mental health concerns. Anyone who does dismiss anxiety disorders will be moderated.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I super, super, super, super, super, super, super disagree with the notion that this article is not talking about mental illness, it directly discusses anxiety as a mental illness.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,637
I super, super, super, super, super, super, super disagree with the notion that this article is not talking about mental illness, it directly discusses anxiety as a mental illness.
It does.
Those campaigning against in-class presentations said that it was important to distinguish between students with actual diagnosable anxiety disorders and those who might just want to get out of the assignment. Addie, a 16-year-old in New York, said that schools like hers already make accommodations for students with certain learning issues to get extra time on tests. She thinks similar processes could be put in place for students with public-speaking anxiety. "I think it's important these accommodations are accessible, but that they're also given to those who are need it instead of those who just say they don't want to present," she said. "There's a big difference between nervousness and anxiety."
It isn't presented as these kids just don't want to do to because they are nervous or they just want to get out of it.

Anxiety Disorders are also very prevalent in teenagers. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/any-anxiety-disorder.shtml#part_155096
  • An estimated 31.9% of adolescents had any anxiety disorder.
The least harmful option for people, at least to me, seems to be just don't downplay it, because why would you want to do that anyways? It's a jerk move either way, isn't it?
 

Casualcore

Member
Jul 25, 2018
1,298
I have had coworkers who were terrified someone would ask them a question in a meeting, so I think it's important and shouldn't be dropped. I wonder if there's a better way to teach public speaking other than demanding a presentation all of a sudden in high school. If there could be more of a focus earlier on in schooling where they talk about anxiety, preparation, and coping with the kids. Try it out without it being a pass/fail. Figure out who needs more help, and get those resources early on, like they do with dyslexic kids or kids with speech impediments like a lisp or R-sound problems. I guess it's another castle in the sky when we can't even get adequate classroom supplies.
 

MBeanie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,875
We'd like to clarify a something when it comes to the moderation of this thread:

The article and the tweet itself make do not make reference to anxiety disorders but to anxiety. Someone who dismisses the concerns of the article (public speaking and anxiety) is not necessarily dismissing anxiety disorders or mental health concerns. Anyone who does dismiss anxiety disorders will be moderated.

So describing people with Anxiety as "cowards" is a pass tho.... gotcha, I don't know what the hell I expected.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,668
As someone who is functionally impaired due to the severity of an anxiety disorder (severe OCD), I don't agree with the students. They should be able to tell the teacher ahead of time that they deal with a certain impairment/issue and that should be factored when grading them. But learning to cohesively speak/present in front of people is almost mandatory for nearly every type of business transaction there is from getting a job in an interview to dealing with customers/clients to selling your boss/colleagues on an idea. Communicating in a more formal, collected way is a fact of life and part of the skill of persuasion. You will severely handicap yourself further not having any exposure to this type of communicating.

A suggestion for easing people with anxiety or anxiety disorders into public speaking is having students at a young age engage in group problem solving / group projects that require cooperation and communication to achieve a goal.
 

Mcspooky

Member
Oct 26, 2017
378
Put me in on the side where you have to do it. Trying to coddle kids/people away from something that they will then most likely run into later one way or another. But perhaps we can create a better program that teaches the skills ,techniques and coping mechanisms do deal with the (at times paralyzing) fear of public speaking. But again. we cannot shelter them because it feels bad. Sometimes learning to cope means you have to push through tough situations. Again that is why there needs to be help for those struggling with it.
 

Muad'dib

Banned
Jun 7, 2018
1,253
So describing people with Anxiety as "cowards" is a pass tho.... gotcha, I don't know what the hell I expected.

They're petitioning to stop something that might help them overcome their shortcoming and fear, they don't want to face up, change or get better. I'm not talking about anxiety as a mental disorder.

I used to stutter in front of my class severely, I was shy talking to customers to the point that my manager gave me an ultimatum. So I got better and better at it.

Running away from this is not the way to go, and is what I consider a weakness and cowardice, not because they have anxiety but because they actively refuse to face their fears and overcome them.