It seems the talk of Ocarina of Time being the GOAT has finally died down

mael · Sep 18, 2018

Neo C. said:
Back then, it was an eyeopener in terms of 3D gaming (like Super Mario 64). With that said, that gen was really rough hardware-wise, to the point that its limitation affects the gameplay.

I'd argue that you get more interesting results from limitation than just blindly brute forcing to a solution.
A good example would be for example the bubble system in NSMBW, the solution solved a lot problem at the same time and made for a far more elegant solution than just splitting the screen or zooming out would have done.

CopperPuppy said:
I'm honestly not sure what any of your posts mean but thanks anyway for trying to clarify.

The game world of Origin is fantastic and shows a lot care on the subject, the game design is far less interesting.

K' Dash said:
Nah fam, WW is love.

If you mean the physical manifestation of love like you can see in some not for children movies, sure.

WW is a horrible game

Philly Cheesesteak · Sep 18, 2018

OoT never was and after playing BotW, definitely not that game either. At this point, I'd have to give it to either FFVII or TLOU.

Deleted member 4037 · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
I mean sure, what I don't like with that kind of discussion is the lack of mutual respect that goes with it.
Like people are discussing your view of GOAT but acting like they're actually discussing mine.
And again there's only 1 game free from criticism : Yoshi's Island :p

I mean hyperbole will always be a part of these discussions and its best to filter that out. I think its just a general thing that builds here and comes out a lot with topics lile these, what I think is overboard is when people use it as a shield from criticism

mael · Sep 18, 2018

Aigis said:
I mean hyperbole will always be a part of these discussions and its best to filter that out. I think its just a general thing that builds here and comes out a lot with topics lile these, what I think is overboard is when people use it as a shield from criticism

Then again there's criticism and outright making shit up.
I mean criticism works when they make a point that's not just "this is good" or "this is bad".
I think it's actually important to also consider what the game is trying to do and how close to that goal the game was.
Whether or not the goal is interesting is entirely pointless to discuss imo because frankly outside of general corporate strategy it's not an interesting discussion.

RedSwirl · Sep 18, 2018

Ocarina of Time was a revelation at the time. It popularized many UI elements still common in console action adventure games today (lock-on, context-sensitive buttons). It may also be the first console game to really popularize some still-common elements of open-world games like day-night cycles and the sense of verisimilitude that comes with them, horseback riding, and just a general epic scale of real-time open-world traversal. There were a lot of lesser-known PC games that did these things before and were probably more ambitious with them, but OOT is probably the first really popular game that made these elements common in AAA games.

The subsequent 3D Zelda games however have honestly iterated off of it, most of all Twilight Princess. OOT probably isn't objectively better than any of those games, it just felt more "new" upon release than TP did. At this point OOT stands up more as a piece of gaming history than anything else.

Crayon · Sep 18, 2018

Twilight Princess sucked ass.

Pla-pla-place holder · Sep 18, 2018

Just because it's the goat doesn't mean it needs to be talked about all the time. Ocarina has nothing to prove, it has a place in most people's heart already.

iksenpets · Sep 18, 2018

It's not the game I would recommend to anyone looking to play something to enjoy themselves today, but it's the one game whose DNA and influence would show up in every single one of the games that I would. To lean into the worst cliche ever, it has a similar place to what Citizen Kane has for film. It's not what you're going to put on the TV for yourself on a lazy Sunday afternoon, but its historical importance is overwhelming.

Deleted member 4037 · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
Then again there's criticism and outright making shit up.
I mean criticism works when they make a point that's not just "this is good" or "this is bad".
I think it's actually important to also consider what the game is trying to do and how close to that goal the game was.
Whether or not the goal is interesting is entirely pointless to discuss imo because frankly outside of general corporate strategy it's not an interesting discussion.

I mean there should be an explanation on why something is good or bad especially when prompted by someone else. I think its missing the point to say intention is the only factor that goes into making something good, I may think the non linear story telling (while the point to compliment the openness) was a detriment to the story at large. Stuff can be good to some people and bad to others, the difference between good and bad criticism is being able to make reasonable arguments are to why you think that.

QisTopTier · Sep 18, 2018

The only GoAT is Tetris

Deleted member 18161 · Sep 18, 2018

Derachi said:
Breath of the Wild happened.

FFVII is my favourite game of all time with OoT previously in second place but BotW has now replaced OoT as I have a rule of one per series in my personal top 10 :P. Mario Galaxy also replaced Mario 64 for me.

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
Nah, Origins is closer to a middle finger to Desillet.
And if I'm being fair, ,that one was only interesting for its craft more than game design.

Talking about talking out of your bum...

Seriously, stop quoting my posts if you have nothing decent to say. Mario 64 is a true classic, and it's artstyle, like most Mario games, completely holds up with a minor texture pack, where as Ocarina looks like shit no matter what you do with it because of its more realistic art style.

Face it you are a Zelda fanboy and every post you make basically has made the case you just cannot take anything seriously if it disses your favorite game. We get it. Shut up and move on now please.

Gustaf · Sep 18, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Seriously, stop quoting my posts if you have nothing decent to say. Mario 64 is a true classic, and it's artstyle, like most Mario games, completely holds up with a minor texture pack, where as Ocarina looks like shit no matter what you do with it because of its more realistic art style.

Face it you are a Zelda fanboy and every post you make basically has made the case you just cannot take anything seriously if it disses your favorite game. We get it. Shut up and move on now please.

what freaking posts are you reading? lol

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
I'd argue that you get more interesting results from limitation than just blindly brute forcing to a solution.
A good example would be for example the bubble system in NSMBW, the solution solved a lot problem at the same time and made for a far more elegant solution than just splitting the screen or zooming out would have done.

The game world of Origin is fantastic and shows a lot care on the subject, the game design is far less interesting.

If you mean the physical manifestation of love like you can see in some not for children movies, sure.

WW is a horrible game

You seem to be of this opinion that your views on this subject matter a lot more than anyone else's. I'm just here to tell you that nobody really cares what you think, so you might want to tame down those heroic posts you keep making in broken English. Or not. Do what you want.

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

Gustaf said:
what freaking posts are you reading? lol

Mael. His posts at this point are just condescending to everyone he quotes.

Crayon · Sep 18, 2018

Crayon said:
Right now, I'm asking myself: what game significantly surpassed oot prior to botw?

Okay I've been thinking about it. I'm going to say Grand Theft Auto 3 and Demon's Souls are the only two games in between that brought anything significant to the table.

Let's fight about it. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

mael · Sep 18, 2018

Aigis said:
I mean there should be an explanation on why something is good or bad especially when prompted by someone else. I think its missing the point to say intention is the only factor that goes into making something good, I may think the non linear story telling (while the point to compliment the openness) was a detriment to the story at large. Stuff can be good to some people and bad to others, the difference between good and bad criticism is being able to make reasonable arguments are to why you think that.

I think it goes down to intent and execution.
The non linear story telling is basically the victim of the open nature of the game.
They went all in with the open nature of the game world and that included making the game far more open than a detailed narrative driven story could allow, that's why the story beats happen in the past because otherwise the game was simply far too open to accomodate a similar story.
They had 2 choices : either account for all possibilities or bend the story to the game's need.
They choose the later because it better served the point they were making about the game without having to gate the game at all.
If they choosed the other way of having rigid quest structure, they would have been forced to gate some areas like in twilight Princess, this would go against the "go anywhere" essense of the game.

Personally I think the game is better with a non linear narrative as it makes for more interesting replays than just going through the same beats in the same order. Interestingly it didn't affect the story narrative all that much, a game like Zelda TP for example while being far more rigid does not necessarily have a much better story.

RedSwirl · Sep 18, 2018

Crayon said:
Twilight Princess sucked ass.

Honestly, Twilight Princess pretty much just iterated on everything OOT did. People only didn't like it because it didn't feel nearly as new or revolutionary.

TP does have some of the best dungeon design in the entire series though.

Gustaf · Sep 18, 2018

RedSwirl said:
Honestly, Twilight Princess pretty much just iterated on everything OOT did. People only didn't like it because it didn't feel nearly as new or revolutionary.

TP does have some of the best dungeon design in the entire series though.

i like, and even love TP but the dungeon suck ass, so hard, everything can be reduced to, Solve puzzle, get key, or kill enemy, get key.

mael · Sep 18, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Seriously, stop quoting my posts if you have nothing decent to say. Mario 64 is a true classic, and it's artstyle, like most Mario games, completely holds up with a minor texture pack, where as Ocarina looks like shit no matter what you do with it because of its more realistic art style.

Yes, the game with clear showing primitive where Bowser don't even look like Bowser hold up graphically well.

And after all Nintendo agrees with you, that's why they only did a texture pack for the NDS release.

Oh.

potentialtodisplease said:
Face it you are a Zelda fanboy and every post you make basically has made the case you just cannot take anything seriously if it disses your favorite game. We get it. Shut up and move on now please.

You can keep accusing people of fanboysim, it's not going to make your shitty arguments better.
And again Yoshi's Island is the GOAT, I thought I made myself clear to anyone who could read....Oh.

potentialtodisplease said:
You seem to be of this opinion that your views on this subject matter a lot more than anyone else's. I'm just here to tell you that nobody really cares what you think, so you might want to tame down those heroic posts you keep making in broken English. Or not. Do what you want.

Just learn to read please.

potentialtodisplease said:
Mael. His posts at this point are just condescending to everyone he quotes.

And really I'm only condescending to you as your posts kind of warrant it.

Zen Hero · Sep 18, 2018

A great game, a big part of my childhood, and I can appreciate its place in history. But I never thought it was the GOAT, myself. Replaying it recently, it's just a bit too easy and straightforward in my opinion. Of course it was revolutionary for its time though.

mael · Sep 18, 2018

Gustaf said:
i like, and even love TP but the dungeon suck ass, so hard, everything can be reduced to, Solve puzzle, get key, or kill enemy, get key.

As Mark Brown put it, the issue with TP's dungeon is that they're not that interesting to traverse on a macro level.
As he puts it just the Lakebed temple really requires any kind of understanding of the overall dungeon layout.

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
I think it goes down to intent and execution.
The non linear story telling is basically the victim of the open nature of the game.
They went all in with the open nature of the game world and that included making the game far more open than a detailed narrative driven story could allow, that's why the story beats happen in the past because otherwise the game was simply far too open to accomodate a similar story.
They had 2 choices : either account for all possibilities or bend the story to the game's need.
They choose the later because it better served the point they were making about the game without having to gate the game at all.
If they choosed the other way of having rigid quest structure, they would have been forced to gate some areas like in twilight Princess, this would go against the "go anywhere" essense of the game.

Personally I think the game is better with a non linear narrative as it makes for more interesting replays than just going through the same beats in the same order. Interestingly it didn't affect the story narrative all that much, a game like Zelda TP for example while being far more rigid does not necessarily have a much better story.

What? Nintendo has never written anything more than a half-competent story in any of their games. They didn't choose to write a bad story. They simply have no writers worth a damn. There isn't one Nintendo game that has ever innovated with writing possibly all the way back to SNES. You might have to go back to Thousand Year Door or something, and even then it's pretty shallow stuff. BotW is just more of the same old stuff from them. Weak, puerile writing that no one in their right mind holds above a high-school grad's talent. That isn't to say it is all bad, but the entirety of their plot is nearly non-existent. They have little to no characterization. The technical style they write in could have been written as I said by a high-school student of decent caliber. Nearly nothing they do with plot and story innovates or is remembered long after it was wrote. It has nothing to do with an open world. They aren't even trying. They have never tried.

Council Pop · Sep 18, 2018

OOT was amazing for me when I first played it in about 2001, and I still think it's a good game, but I'm not sure it stands up now, and not just because of Breath of the Wild. It still has an early 3D clunkiness to it, and I think there are other, less immediately revelatory games from that era which stand up better.

But I think 'greatest ever' lists for video games are problematic in that they're far too tied to the generational aspect of the video game industry, and about being a particular milestone. The same exists for film and music 'GOAT' lists too, but perhaps less than in video games.

mael · Sep 18, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
What? Nintendo has never written anything more than a half-competent story in any of their games. They didn't choose to write a bad story. They simply have no writers worth a damn. There isn't one Nintendo game that has ever innovated with writing possibly all the way back to SNES. You might have to go back to Thousand Year Door or something, and even then it's pretty shallow stuff. BotW is just more of the same old stuff from them. Weak, puerile writing that no one in their right mind holds above a high-school grad's talent. That isn't to say it is all bad, but the entirety of their plot is nearly non-existent. They have little to no characterization. The technical style they write in could have been written as I said by a high-school student of decent caliber. Nearly nothing they do with plot and story innovates or is remembered long after it was wrote. It has nothing to do with an open world. They aren't even trying. They have never tried.

A story in a vaccum is not interesting per se.
It's similar to how people confuse world building with good storytelling.
The point of the story in BotW is to complement the game and further push the theme of the game.
It was never meant to be complex or sprawling like a Final Fantasy game.
Different games have different goals, what works for Witcher 3 doesn't for FFXIV or Mario.
A game as open as BotW would absolutely be far too bloated if it had its priorities in the same manner Witcher3 had.

that ALSO doesn't mean BotW is bad or Witcher 3 is bad either.

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
Yes, the game with clear showing primitive where Bowser don't even look like Bowser hold up graphically well.

And after all Nintendo agrees with you, that's why they only did a texture pack for the NDS release.

Oh.

You can keep accusing people of fanboysim, it's not going to make your shitty arguments better.
And again Yoshi's Island is the GOAT, I thought I made myself clear to anyone who could read....Oh.

Just learn to read please.

And really I'm only condescending to you as your posts kind of warrant it.

Another flurry of nothing. The only people here with shitty arguments are yourself and others like you that rail on anyone criticizing anything. First it was BotW towers are so amazing cuz omg the vistas, then it was Origins took from BotW even though that is basically impossible, and now it's the story in BotW is as shitty as it is because Nintendo chose not to write a masterpiece based on their open world design. YEAH okay.

As far as Yoshi's Island we can agree it is a masterpiece. But that is all we agree on. And everything you have said here says Zelda is one of your most favorite games EVER. Every post you have details your defense of random elements of the game like it has innovated everything in open worlds.

Also, Mario 64 holds up just fine. Ocarina looks like shit without a texture pack. Abysmal. Mario 64 still at least resembles a coherent style. And notice I said with a minor texture pack, alluding to the texture packs on Dolphin forums. Of course any 64 game without a texture pack looks like shit. But I'm not buying your whole thing with Bowser. He looks fine for N64. And with the texture packs he looks good.

Visanideth · Sep 18, 2018

I guess now we've entered the timeline where people claim that BotW is the GOAT.

I want to go back.

Camstun187 · Sep 18, 2018

Jawmuncher said:
There was also that weird time where no one would shut up about Metroid Prime being "citizen Kane" of gaming. Or whatever all that was about.

No one ever said this.

Not ever.

Lady Bow · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
Yes, the game with clear showing primitive where Bowser don't even look like Bowser hold up graphically well.

I think you dropped your glasses.

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
A story in a vaccum is not interesting per se.
It's similar to how people confuse world building with good storytelling.
The point of the story in BotW is to complement the game and further push the theme of the game.
It was never meant to be complex or sprawling like a Final Fantasy game.
Different games have different goals, what works for Witcher 3 doesn't for FFXIV or Mario.
A game as open as BotW would absolutely be far too bloated if it had its priorities in the same manner Witcher3 had.

that ALSO doesn't mean BotW is bad or Witcher 3 is bad either.

I don't need BotW to have a Witcher 3 story. It has no story basically. Its writing is terrible for the most part, its voice acting hideous. At this point people need to accept the fact Nintendo's writers are incompetent or non-existent. It's fine they don't value writing, but I do. Bloodborne has a shitty story too, but its world building and lore are leagues ahead of anything BotW is doing.

mael · Sep 18, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
Another flurry of nothing. The only people here with shitty arguments are yourself and others like you. First it was BotW towers are so amazing cuz omg the vistas, then it was Origins took from BotW even though that is basically impossible, and now it's the story in BotW is as shitty as it is because Nintendo chose not to write a masterpiece based on their open world design. YEAH okay.

As far as Yoshi's Island we can agree it is a masterpiece. But that is all we agree on. And everything you have said here says Zelda is one of your most favorite games EVER. Every post you have details your defense of random elements of the game like it has innovated everything in open worlds.

You're getting tiring, it would be better if you actually read what I wrote instead of the made up version you have in your head.

Mario 64 is absolutely one of the most simplistic game Nintendo made on n64, and probably one of the ugliest they published as well.
Most characters that aren't represented with sprites are simplistic to the point of abstraction. If you like that, good for you but that doesn't make it exactly beautiful.
And for the last time, I never said anything about BotW being influential or whatever. The game is 1 year old, it's far too early for that.
And dear god BotW towers are not amazing because vistas, wtf kind of strawman is that?

BocoDragon · Sep 18, 2018

I always thought OoT was just the best game of a particular human generation (mid-late millennials). It being some kind of far and away GOAT was never really agreed upon by the SNES kids who played games like FF3, Chrono Trigger or LttP first.

And now even younger generations have come along and added to the conversation.

OoT is clearly top 20 of all time material... but if you weren't 12 when it came out, I don't know that you'd necessarily share the opinion that it was better than other greats.

mael · Sep 18, 2018

Lady Bow said:
I think you dropped your glasses.

This is how Bowser is supposed to look like and how they presented it in promo shots.
I think I'm not the one needing glasses here.

potentialtodisplease said:
I don't need BotW to have a Witcher 3 story. It has no story basically. Its writing is terrible for the most part, its voice acting hideous. At this point people need to accept the fact Nintendo's writers are incompetent or non-existent. It's fine they don't value writing, but I do. Bloodborne has a shitty story too, but its world building and lore are leagues ahead of anything BotW is doing.

Like seriously at one point you have to have other arguments than "this is bad" because seriously it's uninteresting to even contemplate. And you never encountered anything done by incompetent people if you think BotW story was written by incompetent people.

Stouffers · Sep 18, 2018

BOTW wears the crown now

Gustaf · Sep 18, 2018

potentialtodisplease said:
I don't need BotW to have a Witcher 3 story. It has no story basically. Its writing is terrible for the most part, its voice acting hideous. At this point people need to accept the fact Nintendo's writers are incompetent or non-existent. It's fine they don't value writing, but I do. Bloodborne has a shitty story too, but its world building and lore are leagues ahead of anything BotW is doing.

talk for yourself, the latin american dub is on fucking point.

alos its not because of the "vistas" if you can really understand what's the difference between botw towers and AC towers, there is no point arguing with you

Deleted member 8861 · Sep 18, 2018

OOT aged like shit imho

Deleted member 4037 · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
I think it goes down to intent and execution.
The non linear story telling is basically the victim of the open nature of the game.
They went all in with the open nature of the game world and that included making the game far more open than a detailed narrative driven story could allow, that's why the story beats happen in the past because otherwise the game was simply far too open to accomodate a similar story.
They had 2 choices : either account for all possibilities or bend the story to the game's need.
They choose the later because it better served the point they were making about the game without having to gate the game at all.
If they choosed the other way of having rigid quest structure, they would have been forced to gate some areas like in twilight Princess, this would go against the "go anywhere" essense of the game.

Personally I think the game is better with a non linear narrative as it makes for more interesting replays than just going through the same beats in the same order. Interestingly it didn't affect the story narrative all that much, a game like Zelda TP for example while being far more rigid does not necessarily have a much better story.

Honestly the non linear narrative is one of the major missteps of the game that was promoting it as "it will make you cry". It ruined the emotional impact because it let you do any of them in whatever order which does make sense given the open nature of the game. That was the intention, but the story suffers from that intention, so it now becomes, do we let you do anything or do we keep a coherent story. I would say that there are ways where you can have both, the beauty of botw is that the story just contextualizes what happens, it isnt necessary to enjoy the game. The game could allow you to have a storyline without having to compromise the rest of the experience. Instead of giving you all the pictures at the very start and letting you find any, how about giving just the first and using the memory to contextualize the next one in the chain. It gives you purpose, direction, and doesnt shackle the rest of the game if you dont want to pursue the storyline, but still give a coherent story for those who wanted it.

Now im not saying thats how it has to be done, this is just me spit balling, but I think it shows Nintendo could have come up with something else than what they give. It was their intention to give the experience they did, but that doesnt make it infallible.

Deleted member 46477 · Sep 18, 2018

RedSwirl said:
Honestly, Twilight Princess pretty much just iterated on everything OOT did. People only didn't like it because it didn't feel nearly as new or revolutionary.

TP does have some of the best dungeon design in the entire series though.

100% agree.

Arbiter's Grounds is one of the best dungeons in any Zelda game. Hands down.

If people say "the dungeons are shit", I don't believe they actually played TP.

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

Gustaf said:
talk for yourself, the latin american dub is on fucking point.

alos its not because of the "vistas" if you can really understand what's the difference between botw towers and AC towers, there is no point arguing with you

I didn't really say AC towers in particular. There is nothing really wrong with towers in Ubi games. I don't mind them. Big deal. A tower. Climb it. Done. Same basic thing with BotW. Like I said the best thing about BotW is all the puzzles to me. That is where the innovation in open worlds lies for me with that game. But they had no fucking dungeons because of that. For every positive with BotW there is a huge negative IMO.

Gustaf · Sep 18, 2018

Aigis said:
Honestly the non linear narrative is one of the major missteps of the game that was promoting it as "it will make you cry". It ruined the emotional impact because it let you do any of them in whatever order which does make sense given the open nature of the game. That was the intention, but the story suffers from that intention, so it now becomes, do we let you do anything or do we keep a coherent story. I would say that there are ways where you can have both, the beauty of botw is that the story just contextualizes what happens, its necessary to enjoy the game. The game could allow you to have a storyline without having to compromise the rest of the experience. Instead of giving you all the pictures at the very start and letting you find any, how about giving just the first and using the memory to contextualize the next one in the chain. It gives you purpose, direction, and doesnt shackle the rest of the game if you dont want to pursue yhe storyline, but still give a coherent story for those who wanted it.

Now im not saying thats how it has to be done, this is just me spit balling, but I think it shows Nintendo could have come up with something else than what they give. It was their intention to give the experience they did, but that doesnt make it infallible.

so instead of they giving you the choice to do what you just said (because you can do that) you wanted to be forced into it?

Deleted member 2809 · Sep 18, 2018

RedSwirl said:
Honestly, Twilight Princess pretty much just iterated on everything OOT did. People only didn't like it because it didn't feel nearly as new or revolutionary.

TP does have some of the best dungeon design in the entire series though.

no, just no
Cinematic crap, horrible characters and half the dungeons are dull as shit, they just look pretty. Nevermind the garbage palette.

kennyamr · Sep 18, 2018

Deleted member 4037 · Sep 18, 2018

Gustaf said:
so instead of they giving you the choice to do what you just said (because you can do that) you wanted to be forced into it?

No? Where did I say that?

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
This is how Bowser is supposed to look like and how they presented it in promo shots.
I think I'm not the one needing glasses here.

Like seriously at one point you have to have other arguments than "this is bad" because seriously it's uninteresting to even contemplate. And you never encountered anything done by incompetent people if you think BotW story was written by incompetent people.

It's a Nintendo 64 game dude. No one thinks promo art is going to look like the real game. My arguments are clearly not this is bad. Watch any cutscene in BotW. The writing is simplistic to the point you wonder why they even bothered. Characters have very few lines, have little characterization, and ultimately there was no emotional connection for me. Nothing I have said has ever amounted to this is bad end of story. I have given summaries and arguments that state my exact positions and why I have them.

What I find most annoying is you accuse me of things that you yourself do time and again in your own posts.

Dominic Decoco · Sep 18, 2018

catashtrophe said:
Bloodborne happened

Crayon · Sep 18, 2018

The story in botw is bad. I mean the characters the plot the dialogue, Etc. Basically the cutscenes. They are bad. No big deal. The game could be better with a good story, on the other hand that doesn't detract from what the design accomplishes.

In fact, the poor story sort of underscores accomplishment of botw. Open world games have come to depend a lot on story and writing to motivate the player. Botw gets away from that.

higgsboson1997 · Sep 18, 2018

Splatoon 2 happened

potentialtodisplease · Sep 18, 2018

mael said:
towers and high elevation are where the game propel the exploration.
You're arguing that reaching a point solving a trivial task revealing 95413543 icons on a map is similar to reaching a high point and marking elements by hand.
You either failed to utterly engage in 1 or the other and can't even explain your reasoning.
And guess why AC is doing exploration better now.

But they're rarely if ever used in the game design however.

Here is your incoherent post on towers and exploration. As if towers and elevation is a coherent response as to why BotW does anything better than anything else. There are plenty of different ways to find something in many open world games from Dying Light to GTA V to Sleeping Dogs to Horizon to Watch Dogs 2. Each of these games has better elements than certain aspects of BotW. Each of them has good exploration as well for the most part. Reaching a high point in Zelda was fun for me. I agree with you on that, but it wasn't all that much different from other games.

It was nice that I could climb in a more efficient way. But that doesn't suddenly negate everything every other game does in an open world. Spider-Man now has probably the best movement of any open game on the market. Infamous was pretty good too, and those games both have their own flaws. There is nothing wrong with the better aspects of BotW, but just because I can climb a mountain that is poorly textured and mark something on a map doesn't make it the greatest open world game ever. Its physics while fun and neat, rarely need to be used all that much. I prefer talking about its puzzles when it comes to innovation in open world games. Obviously, as tech gets better we will see more physics in games, but for what is there BotW does it decently, but I never thought the combat was very good. Horizon crushes BotW with combat IMHO at least on Ultra Hard.

Also, Origins had nothing to do with stealing from BotW. Ubisoft has long been at the forefront of innovating in open world games. Nintendo made one big open world game. More than a decade after everyone else innovated the genre.

ShinySunny · Sep 18, 2018

LOL...BOTW was a shit show of a story.
It couldn't hold a candle to OoT or LttP/MM/WW.

I know that opinion is opinion, but if we are all Zelda fans and have played most of the series, how can some of yall rank BOTW so high?
Probably one of the worse Zelda in term of story and narrative.

TheMisterManGuy · Sep 18, 2018

BotW dethroned it for many people.

It seems the talk of Ocarina of Time being the GOAT has finally died down

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