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Oct 26, 2017
944
Well I don't think the originality of the comment is as important as the substance of it. Some people wish to disassociate themselves from sexualized children art. I'm being as generous as I possibly can in assuming that grown adults aren't enamored with the bikini drawing that got removed on the first page. So what's left is for the creators to take some responsibility for their design choices.

Which coming into every single thread with this stuff and starting a multiple page rant, isn't doing much to change that. The only thing it's going to accomplish is getting the game banned from the forums, when it's quite honestly tamer than some of the other games that are allowed and not even remotely close to having the same content as the games which have been banned.

I understand hating the design decisions, because I don't like them either, even though this is a genre I like which is prevalent in said designs. At the same time I don't want to see this shit banned because people just won't stop their rant until the game is purged, which considering even the trailer got removed from the OP, probably isn't far off from happening.
 

Dandy Crocodile

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
Which coming into every single thread with this stuff and starting a multiple page rant, isn't doing much to change that. The only thing it's going to accomplish is getting the game banned from the forums, when it's quite honestly tamer than some of the other games that are allowed and not even remotely close to having the same content as the games which have been banned.

I understand hating the design decisions, because I don't like them either, even though this is a genre I like which is prevalent in said designs. At the same time I don't want to see this shit banned because people just won't stop their rant until the game is purged, which considering even the trailer got removed from the OP, probably isn't far off from happening.
Very well put and echoes my opinion on the debates.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I honestly don't see the difference between my two posts, outside of how the sentence is built.
Backseat moderation is a separate issue, and the posts having an issue with the actual moderation took about a page of this thread (out of 4). Again, I have no special opinion about this, just saying what happened in this thread, and how nobody had an issue with people not wanting to play this game (which you implied before). There were more posts saying people shouldn't play this game than posts about how people should play this game (if any), hence the "convincing people" part.
All three are complete different parts of this thread. Nearly none about discussing the actual game.

OK, so what you meant is that the issue is people complaining about moderation, not the moderation itself. I can agree with that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Well, at the other place, the prevailing attitude was that works of fiction were pretty well immune from criticism of their content. Anyone who would point out the harmful effects of child-like characters dressing or acting sexually provocative was told that it was just a game, movie, picture, etc. and these images were not real because no one was getting hurt. I know this because I was part of these discussions. People even took it a step further and argued that far from being harmful, these things were actually beneficial because they somehow allowed perverts to engage in their fantasies without it crossing the boundaries into real life.

Resetera has thankfully repealed all that, and rejected it in all of its facets. The administration of this forum have made it very clear that these images are not acceptable, or normal, or harmless. They are immoral, as we knew they were. The days of "thousand year old dragons" and people fetishing and/or winking at each other over their 8 year old "waifus" are over.

The thing is the normalization vs outlet argument is still inconclusive and there are studies that show it going both ways. That we're not allowed to discuss the meager attempts at data-gathering doesn't mean there's suddenly a scientific consensus because there isn't as no one really wants to do that kind of research. It just means that the forum put their foot down for discussing content they deem inappropriate, and that's perfectly fine. Yet oddly enough, some of the banned games on Gaf have actually been walked back like Dungeon Travelers, which is allowed to be discussed here.

And this is NOT a defense of that type of content. It's just a statement on the difficulty of nailing down any kind of factual information due to the scientific community's unwillingness to tackle it to any great extent.

Is there just too few studies on this to make the case one way or the other?

Correct. There's a lot of extrapolation based on crime rates and analysis of those affected by specific paraphillias in general, but there's nothing conclusive.
 
Oct 26, 2017
944
The thing is the normalization vs outlet argument is still inconclusive and there are studies that show it going both ways. That we're not allowed to discuss the meager attempts at data-gathering doesn't mean there's suddenly a scientific consensus because there isn't as no one really wants to do that kind of research. It just means that the forum put their foot down for discussing content they deem inappropriate, and that's perfectly fine. Yet oddly enough, some of the banned games on Gaf have actually been walked back like Dungeon Travelers, which is allowed to be discussed here.

And this is NOT a defense of that type of content. It's just a statement on the difficulty of nailing down any kind of factual information due to the scientific community's unwillingness to tackle it to any great extent.

To be fair, Dungeon Travelers also doesn't have a thread for it and any discussion for it has been about it's gameplay (something which believe it or not, is actually significant). If Atlus were to announce 2-2 I can guarantee that thread would be locked in an instant, primarily due to people coming in and instantly bringing up the designs and cgs, because they don't care how noteworthy the gameplay is. At least that has gameplay going for it that can actually lead to discussions, something that Banned Girls doesn't have in any regard.

Hahahahaha, guessed what kind of game it was after seeing the publisher.

I wonder if you know they've released quite a bit more than just the 2 games you're thinking of? The majority of their games don't have the content that either of those 2 have.
 

spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
In all honestly though if we're going to reject the argument that they're not real thus no one is getting hurt, then I expect the same for all depictions of glorified violence as well. If "it's not real" isn't a valid defense for this, it's not a valid defense for every other depiction of heinous shit out there.

Child pornography is bad. Worse than bad. Ranks right up there in the list of most heinous shit possible. We all know this, no one disagrees with it. It shouldn't entirely get a free pass either just because it's fictional. You're still depicting what is and will forever be unacceptable in real life. And I have zero doubt people with sick sexual persuasions probably use it for their enjoyment. But to accept that "this shit is harmful because it enables pedophiles" veers too far close to "Call of duty trains kids to be killers", something we've long rejected as fact.

And I'm being genuine in this statement, is there any real, hard link between depictions of fictional minors in a sexual manner and those who commits those crimes in real life? Is there just too few studies on this to make the case one way or the other?

I get why discussion of games like Criminal Girls is banned. A game depicting minors in sexually compromised positions that you abuse, yeah that runs too far foul of good taste to justify in any way. But if the game just has character designs that have zero factor in the actual gameplay itself, while I welcome people criticizing the shit out of it, I just don't see that on the same level.

I don't entirely buy into the idea that it "helps" perverts from crossing the line though, but I'd honestly love to see some studies one way or the other showing what harm it is (or isn't) doing relative to actual child porn.

I will take it on faith that you are not actually defending child pornography (even fictional ones), but on this forum we take the hard line stance that it is better to be safe than to be sorry when it comes down to matters that might endanger children's wellbeing. Confirmed studies or not, do you not agree that it is better not to perpetuate the normalization of thoughts of child sexualization?

At least on this forum, please make sure that you read our ToS and FAQ closely on matters that you may be unclear on. The links are available at the top banner of every page.
 

Chrono

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,038
I kind of wish we would have gotten the Vita version, I love playing DRPG's on-the-go, and while I could buy it for the Switch and do the same thing, I much prefer the smaller size/portability of the Vita.

I might pick this up for the PS4 instead, or just go with the Switch version after all. I'll think on it, and then make my pre-order.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
There's an actual child character in the game featured in the box art, in the promotional stuff, ect.

The offending character in question looks nothing like that.

Anywho, waiting for the Switch version. It looks interesting.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,080
Halifax, NS
I will take it on faith that you are not actually defending child pornography (even fictional ones), but on this forum we take the hard line stance that it is better to be safe than to be sorry when it comes down to matters that might endanger children's wellbeing. Confirmed studies or not, do you not agree that it is better not to perpetuate the normalization of thoughts of child sexualization?

At least on this forum, please make sure that you read our ToS and FAQ closely on matters that you may be unclear on. The links are available at the top banner of every page.

Don't worry I get wanting to err on the side of caution when it comes to stuff like this. I just genuinely want (for my own personal curiousity) to see some level of study done to actually try and make the justification that it does more harm than good, so people don't have to make the same appeals to emotion that allows this argument to happen in the first place. We rejected that same like of thinking when it came to violence, would the same happen for this? Or is the emotional aspect of the dangers and damage cp causes too great to risk finding out that answer? I get no one wants to do that kind of study as no matter how honest your results are, any result that isn't "It's bad stop it" will just make someone look like they're trying to defend it, the side of the argument you never want to be on.

I personally don't think discussion of the game should be banned outright (ala Criminal Girls), but any discussion should probably follow the same model as the Kingdom Come thread. Discussion of both the game and aspects of it are fair game, don't insult/shame other users just because they bought it. People who buy it do need to deal with the fact that some of the character designs are in bad taste and not simply hand wave it away, but they don't need to be antagonized for it every other post either.

Also it does amuse (and sadden?) me a bit when you know the Etrian Odyssey artist has also drawn some real questionable shit even outside the game. Does this genre just attract these kind of people in Japan?
 
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spider

CLANG
On Break
Oct 23, 2017
973
Australia
Don't worry I get wanting to err on the side of caution when it comes to stuff like this. I just genuinely want (for my own personal curiousity) to see some level of study done to actually try and make the justification that it does more harm than good, so people don't have to make the same appeals to emotion that allows this argument to happen in the first place. We rejected that same like of thinking when it came to violence, would the same happen for this? Or is the emotional aspect of the dangers and damage cp causes too great to risk finding out that answer? I get no one wants to do that kind of study as no matter how honest your results are, any result that isn't "It's bad stop it" will just make someone look like they're trying to defend it, the side of the argument you never want to be on.

I personally don't think discussion of the game should be banned outright (ala Criminal Girls), but any discussion should probably follow the same model as the Kingdom Come thread. Discussion of both the game and aspects of it are fair game, don't insult/shame other users just because they bought it.

Also it does amuse (and sadden?) me a bit when you know the Etrian Odyssey artist has also drawn some real questionable shit even outside the game. Does this genre just attract these kind of people in Japan?

I understand your personal curiosity on this matter, but please let's keep the discussion on the game and not derail the thread any further. As for your own research, we would recommend other avenues off this forum. Thank you.
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
I think what the person wants is to talk about how the game will play, but the flow of the thread right will not allow that. This thread, ideally, would be the place to do it, as a "game play" thread would most likely get shot down (especially since is was just announced, it will most likely get merged with this one). Historically, between this site and the other, if people interested in any game with questionable art design, they most likely have to wait for the storm to blow over to talk about it. Call it fair, call it unfair, call it what ever you want, but at this forums heart...it's gaming, right? I do not see why there cannot be separate threads for separate discussion: Art design and social issues, and leave the other one for people who just want to talk about how the will play.
Because these kind of discussions are usually started by people who didn't play the game and probably never will. People who are actually playing the game need a separate space to talk about what they are actually playing, instead of just enduring pages of posts that are irrelevant to them. XB2 threads were a nightmare.

What I really don't understand is, if you don't like the design, just post "I don't like it" and move on. That's what I do, I don't look back to games that I already crossed off from my list. But some people seem to come to every thread of XB2 just to say how surely they definitely aren't going to play it. It's literally a boycott and it's really annoying.
Thank you for saying it in a better way than I could.
Maybe there won't be an OT since the games art is so abhorrent.
Ehhh, I think an OT is possible as long as it's well made.
The issue there was with some specific art in the trailer (and the game obviously). Making an OT without that shouldn't be an issue, just like EO threads avoided this kind of stuff before, or how we avoid NSFW pictures in the DOA OT.
OK, so what you meant is that the issue is people complaining about moderation, not the moderation itself. I can agree with that.
Yes, sorry for not being clear about it.

It's just typical drpg combat. Turn-based.

Thank you for sharing that! It's a shame they didn't show some gameplay trailer with it too.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,139
i had to have this pointed out to me. apparently the still image at the beginning of the press event with the prinny was taken from the start of the trailer for this game.
 
Dec 18, 2017
1,374
User Banned (1 month): Defending the sexualisation of children. Intentionally disregarding site policies and moderator instructions. Previously banned for similar behaviour. Ban extended after review.
The thing is the normalization vs outlet argument is still inconclusive and there are studies that show it going both ways.
At the risk of getting in trouble, again, I am absolutely convinced loli stuff is a kink more similar to ageplay than it is to pedophilia. I don't think that most people who consume/participate in this kind of content relate it to actual children. So the only thing being normalize in the process is just a kink. And normalization of a kink only means less kink shaming(like the kind going on in this thread).

The "offending picture". For the half a second I had a chance to see it, could be argued to be "adult looking". Also, I don't think that pedophilia is based on body type, but rather the power imbalance that adults have over innocent children.

Thus, loli isn't even so much of an "outlet for pedophilia" as someone would argue, but an outlet for a 2D complex kink related to usually some mixture of cuteness and androgyny(also most lolicons are into shotacon and the otokonoko genre due to the shared body type).
I believe this because the outlet perspective makes sense to me. While the "escalation" argument doesn't make a bit of logical sense to me.

Also, I don't think that people have any agency whatsoever in the body type they find attractive. In fact, I would argue body type is a large part of what sexual orientation itself is based on. My rationalization or justification for that claim being that straight men will often be attracted to passing transwoman, or gay men attracted to transmen(Buck Angel is more popular among gay men than any other group), despite orientation often being defined by biological sex and things like genitals. In this case, it is not defined by genitals and biological sex, but appearance. That means sexual orientation is most likely connected, at least in part, to appearance.

So, in my view, the "normalization" of such content isn't actually normalization of any kind or predatory paraphilia, but just sending the message to people that like it, "hey, you're okay. Relax and have fun. You don't have to force yourself to become someone you're not."
Also, this logic that pedo or predation is based on appearance, is the entire logic behind the claim that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, when it isn't. I would say that they're two different things, and attraction to appearance is different than that.
But I don't that people have any agency over what appearance they find attractive, any more than someone can choose to find Buck Angel more attractive than Bailey Jay by choice. And I think that often, the reason someone would be more attracted to Buck than Baily, is because of physical appearance, and that preference being caused by sexual orientation.

And, based on the fact people don't actually have agency over what body type they do find attractive, it's actually a bit cruel to demonize, kink shame, and suppress content they enjoy, just because it is deviant and neotenous.
Because instead of actually decreasing rates of people with a lolicon or shotacon fetish, it will lead to self loathing and depression for those who do have this kink.

I do think that there are dangerous people who are pedophiles and other similar people with predatory inclinations who do consume this stuff. But I think that they make up the minority of people who do so. Much like the fact that the majority of people who consume violent video games don't have inclinations to act out violence in real life. I also don't think that our society as a whole is in any danger or normalizing sexual predation on children, and certainly not from Japanese video games like this.

These two videos basically sum up my thoughts on the matter.



 

Cornbread78

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
Northeast USA
umm, you're best bet would be to just denouce the sexuality of minors and leave it at that buddy. Good luck!


There's no need or rationalization for the sexualization of minors in TV, Art, music or Video games..... period.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru

Mankoto

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,375
So, this is coming out soon. It is "the best DRPG on PS4 by far" according to God is a Geek:
https://www.godisageek.com/reviews/labyrinth-of-refrain-coven-of-dusk-review/

Should I be excited?

Yes, if you can live with the character designs, then the game is fantastic. For NIS' first time out in the DRPG space, they did a really good job here. I really hope they do another one. Story is a hit or miss, but the dungeons and overall customization is extremely solid.

I mean, how many DRPGs does the PS4 have? Two?

If the Vita version came out in the west, it'd be considered one of the best released on the platform.
 

Shizuka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,096
If the Vita version came out in the west, it'd be considered one of the best released on the platform.

But it didn't, it's releasing on platforms (PS4/Switch) where the game won't really have competition. Drawing comparisons with games from other platforms is weird when the company itself decided not to release the game there.

Fair point. Despite that, do you think this will be a good game for a DRPG newbie?

If you have a Vita, 3DS, PS3 or PC, there should be better DRPGs for you to get acquainted with the genre.
 

Mankoto

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,375
But it didn't, it's releasing on platforms (PS4/Switch) where the game won't really have competition. Drawing comparisons with games from other platforms is weird when the company itself decided not to release the game there.

I know. I reviewed it on Switch... I'm setting the expectation that, while yes DRPG's are nonexistent on both platforms, you shouldn't sleep on it. And I consider using Vita an apt comparison considering it was originally a Vita game to begin with, so using the Vita's library of DRPGs for comparison does make sense.
 

Chackan

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,097
This game looks SO GOOD!

I don't know if I want it to be great, or to suck because I already have a somewhat uncomfortable backlog :|
 

Imitatio

Member
Feb 19, 2018
14,560
Is the demo exclusive to the US eShop or is it PSN only? Because there doesn't seem to be one on the EU eShop yet and I'd love to try this before buying. I played a lot of DRPGs on the Vita already and also like EO on the 3DS, but I'm somewhat skeptical towards this one as my first Switch DRPG.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,139
Is the demo exclusive to the US eShop or is it PSN only? Because there doesn't seem to be one on the EU eShop yet and I'd love to try this before buying. I played a lot of DRPGs on the Vita already and also like EO on the 3DS, but I'm somewhat skeptical towards this one as my first Switch DRPG.

it's on the eu eshop starting friday.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
I forgot I had this pre-ordered in Amazon. It shipped this afternoon.

Oh well, going to wait for impressions to see if I should open it or sell it.
 

TK_Shrodes

Sega of America
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
182
San Mateo, CA
I'm terrible at games like this but I'm still having a blast. Other than Ys this is probably my favorite title we've put out since I started working at the company last June.

If you are on the fence I totally recommend getting the demo because it's actually a decent chunk of the beginning to see if you like the vertical slice.
 

Renteka-Bond

Chicken Chaser
Member
Dec 28, 2017
4,259
Clearwater, Florida
I'm terrible at games like this but I'm still having a blast. Other than Ys this is probably my favorite title we've put out since I started working at the company last June.

If you are on the fence I totally recommend getting the demo because it's actually a decent chunk of the beginning to see if you like the vertical slice.

I was interested in it, but I'd kept cancelling and restarting my preorder for it. I'd already went through Lost child for the most part before dropping it, as well as playing some Etrian on and off and, recently, picking up DQXI. I told myself I wasn't gonna get it cause I already had other things to play (I also picked up Spiderman and am working through Yakuza 0 and Quantum Break).

By pure chance I happened to find the demo up in the store on Friday and, well, by Sunday, I'd not only picked up the CE I'd been eying but also convinced another friend of mine to try out the demo and he's gonna buy the game too. Will be dropping DQXI for this as soon as my copy rolls in (nd I'm half-seriously debating grabbing it digital too so I can get back to it).

I don't normally like these types and it's not god-tier, but man did it click with me in a way DQXI couldn't. I'm a systems guy and this game has a lot of things to draw my eye to in that regard.
 

Derkon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,563
Have this coming tomorrow, I've become a sucker for DRPGs recently and I have heard nothing but good from people who played it. Grabbed the Switch copy as DRPGs feel at home on a handheld to me.