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Is there A SINGLE good argument against veganism? They all seem to boil down to "it tastes so good"
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That was expected, and this kind of reaction proves me right, at least in my opinion, of course.
I don't feel the need to spam my moral choices on the internet just because I think they are right.
I had a personal trainer at my gym tell me that I care too much about animals and not enough about humans and that me being vegan was holding me back among other things all because I said I was having problems finding fingerless boxing gloves that weren't made of leather and were cheap.
People are fucking pricks to vegans. The sort of judgemental shit meat eaters come out with completely unsolicited to belittle vegans is mind blowing.
Why? We evolved to this point thanks to being incredible apex predators. I see no reason you can't eat animals if they're raised in a responsible, sustainable way. At some point it stops being about the practical implications of meat consumption and becomes more about your personal religious belief that you shouldn't eat other sentient things. Not everyone is going to share that belief.
It doesn't prove you right in the slightest, I'm not preaching at you lol.
Sorry, but the preachy vegan is largely a myth people like yourself have helped to create.
90% this is how it goes:
Person says they are vegan, second person gives them shit for it, vegan then explains their position.
And as the conversation continues the vegans get more defensive with all the constant shit posts and drive bys like your initial comment ITT being hurled their way.
So much this.
The ignorance about veganism is astounding, especially the cost/time/difficulty thing that so many spread about without even knowing the first thing about the diet.
People ITT have literally tried to use the "you need to use expensive protein supplements" bullshit, when protein is one of the easiest things to obtain... the myths surrounding this diet/lifestyle are fucking insane.
Because we want to grow into a better society that inflicts less suffering to living things and harm to our environment.
Evolution arguments, apex predators... all irrelevant now we're not in the food chain any more and we mass farm our food. We've moved way beyond any biological need, that argument has been bunk for a long time.
There's plenty of "good" arguments, but their integrity generally relies on income, geographic location, what you percieve as morally acceptable and a whole swathe of different variables and factors.
My good reason is that I like chicken too much.
My good reason is that I like chicken too much.
And as long you can't prove that you have actually a lower co2 footprint than me, all the environmental are pointless.
duck fat roasties are the food of gods and no one can convince me otherwise
The OP is phrased really badly and sets this discussion up to be doomed from the start.
A vegan diet is very, very easy to manage. It can take time to make the switch initially due to habit etc, but the actual cost of components will likely go DOWN when you do.
All you need access to is fresh vegetables, fruit, pulses, grain, nuts, etc... all things that the majority of people on this forum will have easy access to.
There are three main reasons people can't do this:
1. Health
For some a vegan diet isn't possible due to other dietary restrictions. For example, I have Ulcerative Colitis and when my disease is very active I have to eat a specific diet (SCD diet) that contains meat as a large component, it's the only diet I have found that doesn't make my condition worse and keeps me at a healthy weigh as I cannot eat carbohydrates and too much fibre while it's active, a vegan diet is hard to manage.
2. Geography
There will be places where meat is a staple and cannot be easily replaced due to lack of access to fresh produce of other kinds.
3. Priorities
Some people are just not in a position to even think about this. Perhaps they're a single parent struggling to raise multiple children, or a person with mental health issues who only has enough energy to focus on their mental well being, there are many legit reasons why a person could not make the change right now or even at all.
MYTHS
1. Cost
If you have access to fresh produce as detailed above, it is NOT expensive to go vegan. IGNORE all branded pre-packaged vegan foods when considering this. These things are usually expensive and unnecessary. All you need to do is learn to cook with base components. It's not hard and it can be done very cheap. I have lived on the poverty line in the UK and sustained a healthy vegan diet before, it's very easy to do.
2. Supplements
The only supplement you need are the Bs, b12 specifically, which is in many fortified products. If you need to buy actual b12 supplements though, you can get them low cost. And as a vegan diet done well can be very cheap, it can balance out overall easily.
3. Time/difficulty
If a person does not fall into 1-3 from the previous list, then it is not difficult to go vegan. Cost is low and, really, all it takes is time. And it's not a rush, you don't need to frantically try to fit this around your responsibilities. You can take it slow, read up a little here and there, maybe try a vegan dish once in a while, eat one less portion of meat per week, and so on.
The time and difficulty aspects are low if you take it easy and ease yourself into it.
A vegan diet is very, very easy to manage. It can take time to make the switch initially due to habit etc, but the actual cost of components will likely go DOWN when you do.
All you need access to is fresh vegetables, fruit, pulses, grain, nuts, etc... all things that the majority of people on this forum will have easy access to.
There are three main reasons people can't do this:
1. Health
For some a vegan diet isn't possible due to other dietary restrictions. For example, I have Ulcerative Colitis and when my disease is very active I have to eat a specific diet (SCD diet) that contains meat as a large component, it's the only diet I have found that doesn't make my condition worse and keeps me at a healthy weigh as I cannot eat carbohydrates and too much fibre while it's active, a vegan diet is hard to manage.
2. Geography
There will be places where meat is a staple and cannot be easily replaced due to lack of access to fresh produce of other kinds.
3. Priorities
Some people are just not in a position to even think about this. Perhaps they're a single parent struggling to raise multiple children, or a person with mental health issues who only has enough energy to focus on their mental well being, there are many legit reasons why a person could not make the change right now or even at all.
MYTHS
1. Cost
If you have access to fresh produce as detailed above, it is NOT expensive to go vegan. IGNORE all branded pre-packaged vegan foods when considering this. These things are usually expensive and unnecessary. All you need to do is learn to cook with base components. It's not hard and it can be done very cheap. I have lived on the poverty line in the UK and sustained a healthy vegan diet before, it's very easy to do.
2. Supplements
The only supplement you need are the Bs, b12 specifically, which is in many fortified products. If you need to buy actual b12 supplements though, you can get them low cost. And as a vegan diet done well can be very cheap, it can balance out overall easily.
3. Time/difficulty
If a person does not fall into 1-3 from the previous list, then it is not difficult to go vegan. Cost is low and, really, all it takes is time. And it's not a rush, you don't need to frantically try to fit this around your responsibilities. You can take it slow, read up a little here and there, maybe try a vegan dish once in a while, eat one less portion of meat per week, and so on.
The time and difficulty aspects are low if you take it easy and ease yourself into it.
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility and inappropriate comparisons
No. Meat eaters who refuse to even consider lessening meat & dairy consumption and add fully vegan food to their diet for a large portion of their food consumption are equivalent to flat earthers and climate change deniers at this point. Dumb, lazy and/or selfish people who care only about themselves and do not understand what is at stake. Have the mindset of picky 3 year olds when it comes to eating, with how unable they are of trying new foods that isn't slapping bacon on everything and trying to adjust to new tastes and textures. Actually, scratch that. Even 3 year olds would be open to veganism and more compassionate about animals and open to changing their diet if it wasn't for their shitty parents (and later peers).
For anyone who thinks this is harsh and "another tree hugger vegan with their usual hostile behaviour and need to be vocal about their lifestyle", know that I don't fucking care. I'm done apologizing and trying to act all polite and thinking of snowflake meat eaters' feelings at this point. From my POV you're not only participating in the torture and mistreatment of billions of living creatures, a large portion of which can have some level of enjoyment of living, but you are literally destroying the world. Meat and dairy production are pretty much the number 1 environmental problem, all things considered. Not just its effect on climate change, which is at the or very near to the top depending on what factors are taken to consideration, but it pollutes and destroys the environment in many other ways as well. You can't blame the fucking GOP/rightwing idiots and big corporations for this. This is all on the individuals who continue not giving enough of a fuck to make noticeable changes to their diets.
For anyone who thinks this is harsh and "another tree hugger vegan with their usual hostile behaviour and need to be vocal about their lifestyle", know that I don't fucking care. I'm done apologizing and trying to act all polite and thinking of snowflake meat eaters' feelings at this point. From my POV you're not only participating in the torture and mistreatment of billions of living creatures, a large portion of which can have some level of enjoyment of living, but you are literally destroying the world. Meat and dairy production are pretty much the number 1 environmental problem, all things considered. Not just its effect on climate change, which is at the or very near to the top depending on what factors are taken to consideration, but it pollutes and destroys the environment in many other ways as well. You can't blame the fucking GOP/rightwing idiots and big corporations for this. This is all on the individuals who continue not giving enough of a fuck to make noticeable changes to their diets.
If you're asking would I eat something that has human level consciousness, then the answer would be "only in certain circumstances".
It's just subjective categorization isn't it? Vegans take the concept of consciousness and slap it on, let's say, mammals. Then empathetically derive that they wouldn't want to feel the same way that animals feel. Ergo, don't be cannibals.
No whataboutism please.
Veganism is about reduction of suffering, it never claimed it can get rid of all of it.
There is no such thing as sustainable, responsible meat production. Not with this many people on the planet. That is a blind religious belief if anything.
I don't in my everyday life, but this is a forum. If some snowflake meat eater uses my post to decide to not to go vegan (or even just add vegan food to their diets for any kind of noticeable amount) they would never do it, no matter what kind of kiddy gloves we used when handling the subject.
Thanks for confirming my notion that vegans are assholes and that is not worth the time engaging in any type of conversation with them.
So ignore that person's opinion on these things?
There are idiots everywhere.
Lol, ok. Put your own patheticness down to vegans instead of owning up to how your behaviour/diet is destroying this world.
Yeh, ignore the fact the majority of vegans never do this UNLESS backed into a corner by aggressive non-vegans giving them shit, lol.
If the whole world stopped and became vegan over night it would hurt a lot of farmers, markets, and restaurants along with all the people who work for them. We'd also have a massive influx of cows, chickens, etc that were raised for slaughter that now won't be eaten. This is just an extreme hypothetical.
Yeah, this. Meat eaters love to bring in the victim act when vegans are vocal about it but a lot of meat eaters act far more hostile towards vegans, even when not using harsh words.
If one option wasn't massively contributing to climate change and destruction of the environment, maybe that would be an option. If there weren't billions of people on this planet, maybe that would be an option. But it is and there are, so we can't continue this way.
Of course it won't be overnight. No one is asking this. That's no reason to not begin the change.
I'm not sure we're reading the same thread. I mean there's curtness on both sides, but the OP was banned for making what is clearly a disingenuous thread, and then making baiting posts for the entirety of it. And there are bizarre posts somewhere early on where someone pulls out an analogy that rapists get enjoyment from raping people or something.
I don't think I have ever felt the need to ask anyone to explain their position on what they eat, to be quite frank. It really just isn't something I think warrants explanation.
I don't really know who all these people are asking vegans to explain themselves out of the blue. But the only time really threads like these come up are basically when someone decides to proselytize their (vegan or vegetarian) lifestyle choices.
And the post that you say was someone backed into a corner??? seemed to be entirely unsolicited hostility...
If someone wants to only eat plant material, more power to them. None of my business.
If you honestly think that everyone becoming Vegan will impact the climate enough for it to matter. Or believe that a crazy goal like that is even remotely realistic or reasonable then i have some bad news for you. That is never going to happen.
You say this as if every vegan is like this and that no one who eats meat is an asshole in a similar manner towards vegans.
Not just talking about this thread, explained in my previous posts. There is absolutely more aggression on the meat-eating side toward vegan than there are preachy vegans.
Here's a truth I've noticed over the years:
The majority of vegans will only ever mention they're vegan out of necessity, ie: to let a host know of their requirements.
It's very common for someone to make a snide comment, or ask a person why, etc... and as many people are vegan for ethical reasons, and as questions are very common, it's actually quite common to hear things like "I think eating meat is wrong",m and I thin ka large amount of people get triggered by these things and lump vegans explaining their position when asked in with those rare few who preach.
And it is everyone's business when we talk about the impact on the environment and suffering it causes living creatures, a global conversation that NEEDS to happen.
Hardly any vegans, the myth is real.
This is my experience as well and I have come to know quite a few vegans over the years.
Heh. There is not a single thread on ResetEra about veganism (other than the Vegan OT) that doesn't turn into 1) An Ode to Meat/Bacon/Fried Chicken and 2) whining about vegans being mean. Even if it's a just a news thread about some new study that is just made to inform people about how healthy a vegan diet is or how big of an environmentally positive impact a vegan diet/lifestyle has vs. animal product including ones based on most recent scientific studies.
I actually get that, but it's the vegans you probably notice the most.
It doesn't matter what the majority of vegans might do when they aren't the ones in this thread. No one voluntarily posting on an internet forum has been "backed into a corner" and that post in question wasn't even addressing anyone in particular.
In this thread vegans get called aggressive and obnoxious while non-vegans get called dumb, lazy and selfish, get compared to flat earthers, climate change deniers, and Trump supporters, and the occasional snide comment about fast food. That post wasn't a response to anything in this thread, it was a generalization that was far more aggressive than anything non-vegans are posting.
Accusing others of being aggressive while failing to call out aggression on one's own side just ensures you'll only ever be preaching to the choir.
Sorry, but it's definitely meat eaters who stir this argument up the most, which is the main point here.
I hope you're joking.
Read the thread.
It's not what _I_ think. The science agrees with me. Meat and dairy production is a Top 3 contributor to climate change (some even put it at the top, more factors considered, but there's of course some debate over that still as these are big, complex matters). Of course a noticeable drop in meat and dairy consumption would have a huge effect. It doesn't even have to be everybody. And of course I don't think it's ever going to happen that 100% of humanity would become 100% vegan. I doubt even 50% or 30% will in my lifetime (especially of westerners). That's why I have zero belief in an optimistic outcome for the next century or so.
And that isn't even considering all the OTHER ways meat and dairy production is bad for the environment (it requires far more massive land mass to uphold, leading to habitat loss for the rest of living things, it pollutes the environment in other ways, we need to use massive fuckton more of all kinds of hormones, antibiotes and pesticides, insecticides and herbicides that can cause large scale issues, it is very water intensive which causes issues already in many climates that are drier and will just increase in harmfulness as climate change causes more droughts).
I believe this is what you'd call Confirmation Bias.
As a non-vegan, I see a lot more preachy vegans and I don't recall the last time I saw someone who was upset in anyway that someone was vegan.
I'm not, and i've read the thread already. That's all for me, nothing more to discuss here.
I'm not "conveniently ignoring" anything. No non-vegan has posted anything comparable to this:
in this thread.
So calling people dumb, lazy and selfish, comparing them to flat earthers, climate change deniers, and Trump supporters is fine to you? Not a good reason to get angry and retaliate in kind?
This entire thread was "stirred up" by an aggressive op
Do you honestly not consider calling the opposition stupid and disingenuous to be aggressive?
Militiant vegans are not worth engaging with but there are normal vegans who don't force their lifestyle on you at every step. My roommate years ago was a vegan and he was chill about me eating meat, he was vegan for himself and his beliefs.
So another shit-post quality drive-by that adds nothing and fails to even bother discussing.
No, it's experience over 15 years and paying attention to the conversation.
The preachy vegan is a myth almost entirely. It exists in places, and there are examples ITT, but threads like these are a boliing pot of shit-post quality bad faith engagements on both sides, so it's not something to base opinion on.
I grantee you, in the real world, you have met far more non-preachy vegans. Simply because the majority of vegans you would have met wouldn't have advertised the fact and you wouldn't have even known they were.
The OP is badly phrased.
There are vegans in here being dicks.
Generally, though, it's absolutely meat eaters triggered by the very notion of veganism that causes Vegans to go on the defensive. It's definitely meat eaters who stir this up more.
It's not. There are so many meat replacements nowadays that are really close to meat in texture and taste that you don't have to abandon those tastes/food experiences you like. Like, if you can enjoy the different kinds of textures/tastes in meat products of the world, you should be able to enjoy (some) vegan sausages, vegan ham type things, vegan chicken like products, vegan steaks, vegan minced meat type things etc. It's not all carrots and beans and salads.
Maybe make an attempt to give some vegan foods a try sometime. Don't go in blind, there are some horrible vegan products (just like everything) and something like seitan can be made really delicious or it can be real tasteless and bad. Maybe look up a highly regarded vegan restaurant if there are any near you or try to figure out if any "normal" restaurants have some much praised vegan dishes.
Except that nobody backed Famassu (as a latest example) into a corner.
He is the one being agressive and confrontational, and largely irrational in his seething hatred due to his beliefs.
He is exactly the kind of person who give vegans a bad rep.
Taste, cost, enjoyment, practicality, limit options how and where to eat. The constant need to check everything I eat/order.
I agree. People don't realize how much they overestimate meat when it comes to cooking. If more pressure was put on others to cut back on meat, I'm sure people would discover new kinds of foods and dishes. It's sort of already happening. You can find a variety of resources on how to cook without meat.
I mean, it may be harsh, but he has a point. What would you say to a person who refused to recycle or drove around in a Hummer?
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