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Deleted member 32005

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 8, 2017
1,853
If that was acceptable in 2004, we must have lived in two different dimensions.

hillary clinton didnt support gay marriage until 2013. Arrested Development in its original run had a lot of jokes where the punchline was that their lawyer was gay and that was the entire joke. 2004 was a long time ago.

After Peace Walker and Phantom Pain, I'm starting to believe the only thing Kojima wrote in previous entries were the poop jokes while Fukushima wrote the rest.

yeah, Fukushima was integral. ever since MGS4 (as much as i loved it) its been pretty obvious
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
This thread seems like a weird take on this.

For one, the crotch grab was a callback to MGS2 where Raiden had his crotch grabbed an Johnson realized he was a dude. Being able to kill him is nothing more than an easter egg where fans get to kill a disliked character.

Yeah he was made gay because Westerners would make jokes about Raiden's sexuality based on his androgynous appearance, and yes the "Thunderbolt's Bitch" thing is fucked up, and you can call him out on those, but the other stuff doesn't really strike me as homophobia or acquiescing to bigots
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,748
I always saw raiden as a sort of uncomfortable commentary about the insecurities of the player.

Well there are certainly homophobic overtones around this part of the game, I always saw it as more of a "jokes on you" thing.

This was always my take. Also, confused why there'd be a time paradox killing him. It's not Raiden. And you can kill nearly everybody else. It would be weird not to be able to kill him.

The handling of his character definitely wasn't great though.
 

ImNotAFroot

Member
Nov 6, 2017
295
Kojima has always been incredibly problematic and this isn't even him at his worst.
The fact that so many gamers™ worship him daily is very telling of the state of the industry...
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,707
I mean it also ends with him back together with his wife and has a son.

Meanwhile Snake and Otacon go and retire with their adopted daughter.

Just saying I think there's someone gay here but it's not the blonde guy.
Oh I definitely always noticed, even since MGS2, the irony that Raiden got bashed by homophobes for being "gay" when he canonically has a committed relationship with a woman, while Snake's female relationships have all completely failed or taken the form of really awkward flirting and his only meaningful emotional connections were with Gray Fox and living with Otacon
 
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Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
What outlet was there for Gay critiques to be heard by the mainstream in 2004 for media in general, yet alone in videogames?

I don't know my history, but gaming doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even then, you don't put the burden on writers to expose bigotry. This was common sense then, people chose not apply it.

hillary clinton didnt support gay marriage until 2013. Arrested Development in its original run had a lot of jokes where the punchline was that their lawyer was gay and that was the entire joke. 2004 was a long time ago.

Hillary Clinton isn't anybody's compass on when behaviours changed. Gay jokes are still a thing today, we have evolved but it's not that different enough that it excuses what was happening with MGS3 in 2004.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Raikov is definitely a very weird addition, and I kinda hate that Kojima was basically throwing a bone to Raiden's detractors. Despite that he still seems to genuinely like Raiden as a character. MGS in general has an odd history of portraying LGBT characters, showing this same conflict of intent

Like, Ocelot is obviously infatuated with Big Boss and that's generally not played as a joke. And it'd literally take one line to make Solid Snake and Otacon's relationship romantic. Strangelove's connection with The Boss is also a thing, but she also goes off the deep end with it.

Then with the amount of subtext between Big Boss and Kaz in MGSV and Peace Walker I almost feel like Kojima wants to portray a same-sex relationship on screen but he just never commits.
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,530
US
People need to start realizing they only liked MGS post-MGS3 because of the already existing characters/setting/story. Kojima ruined the story when he took over and started writing it alone after his colleague Fukushima left after MGS3.

MGS4? Laughably terrible story (remember the mount Rushmore of snakes on a submarine??)
Peace Walker? Awful Story
MGS5? Incomplete story that ruined Ocelot and didn't build on what everyone expected seeing as how this is the prologue to MG1.

Death Stranding will truly show us how talent for story telling, and if that game flops that studio will sadly go under because of this dude and his ego.
 

BAN PUNCHER

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,945
Back in the day, I thought there would be a twist and it was actually Raiden travelling into a VR simulation, nothing seemed off limits after the craziness of MGS2.
No, Twin Snakes was the VR Simulation of the Shadow Moses Incident that Raiden mentioned he went through prior to his mission in MSG2.

That's why Snake is jumping off missiles and everything is presented as over the top - because the information gathered from eye witnesses and Nastasha Romanenko's book was exaggerated as people tend to do when they recount events (or intentionally misleading to protect Snake and Friends as in the case of Romanenko's book).



Now let me tell you about my theory on how Solid Snake is still in the Psycho Mantis boss fight and every game since then has just been a psychic illusion...
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
If that was acceptable in 2004, we must have lived in two different dimensions.
...we must have.

90% of this forum were "bigots" back then. It was a different time, and we've come a long way as a society since then.

Pretty sure the old forum wasn't even banning people for using gay slurs at that point in time.
 

SCB360

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,639
sOklpJa.jpg




A relic of the times, this message will always apply to stuff like this
 
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Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
Also, confused why there'd be a time paradox killing him. It's not Raiden. And you can kill nearly everybody else. It would be weird not to be able to kill him.

His quote was that he leaves decisions up to the player as the "essence of MGS", yet chose not to apply it for key characters in the game. You are thinking in terms of canon, I'm thinking in terms of design. The joke is that he stands in for Raiden, but killing him holds no repercussion. The same could have had happened for Ocelot or EVA, but it does not. The "essence of MGS" is used conspicuously.
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,530
US
Also keep in mind Kojima would think honking on a womans breast would probably be hilarious too. I don't think this joke had any homophobic intent behind it, but more of a LOL ANYTHING SEXUAL IS FUNNY take.
 

The Omega Man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,897
I don't know my history, but gaming doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even then, you don't put the burden on writers to expose bigotry. This was common sense then, people chose not apply it.



Hillary Clinton isn't anybody's compass on when behaviours changed. Gay jokes are still a thing today, we have evolved but it's not that different enough that it excuses what was happening with MGS3 in 2004.
The best think you can do is Boycott all Kojima games to send the message loud and clear that those 2004 jokes are terrible.
I hope he is a better man now and doesn't do that stuff in his new game.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
People need to start realizing they only liked MGS post-MGS3 because of the already existing characters/setting/story. Kojima ruined the story when he took over and started writing it alone after his colleague Fukushima left after MGS3.

MGS4? Laughably terrible story (remember the mount Rushmore of snakes on a submarine??)
Peace Walker? Awful Story
MGS5? Incomplete story that ruined Ocelot and didn't build on what everyone expected seeing as how this is the prologue to MG1.

Death Stranding will truly show us how talent for story telling, and if that game flops that studio will sadly go under because of this dude and his ego.

I enjoyed the story of those game for the most part. Though MGS2 has always been my favorite so I fully admit my taste don't always align with the fan base.

There's also,you know, the gameplay? I had a lot of fun with PW and MGSV.

I think Death Stranding will be just fine.
 
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Dreamboum

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,847
Teenagers can be biggots too. They are not exactly known for their maturity and wisdom.

Designing a gay character and leaving it up to the player to knock or kill him isn't the usual stuff that we expect out of teenager humor. I'm not disputing that they can be bigots, but the way you expressed your message makes it sound like some immaturity rather than a joke with dangerous implications. 15 years old jokes are the Kojima scat jokes about people shitting themselves up. When it comes to gay jokes of this kind, maybe it's time to consider that he is, in fact, an adult and not downplay this fact.
 

Bradford

terminus est
Member
Aug 12, 2018
5,423
Kojima has had a history of strange representation and writing with regards to LGBT characters and ideas. I mean, his tweet here is a good example:

gtmN92O.png


In general, despite Kojima being a weirdo on his own terms, a lot of his views do still stink of traditional Japanese value systems. Japan is not actually that positive towards sexual minorities, despite its... comparatively progressive stance towards transgender topics. This isn't to say that Japan is great with these issues either, though.

As a gay person who generally loves Kojima's work, there are definitely aspects to his personification of queer individuals that rubs me the wrong way even as he frequently at least attempts to subvert gender norms with his characters. This, however, feels like a result of trying to create unique, different characters and juxtapose otherness with his wacky-yet-serious plotlines. I don't think the intent, unfortunately, is to portray LGBTQ characters positively.

It's a bummer. I'm hoping he gets better. Especially now that he's good friends with Del Toro. I think he's evolved at least a bit from his Snatcher and Policenauts days... but he's still got a ways to go.
 

Pog

Banned
May 19, 2018
248
It's amazing how much more gross and immature we were as a species barely a decade ago.

Frat boys like Kojima really need to get the fucking memo.
 

Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,858
California banned same sex couples from marrying less than 10 years ago. Views on LGBT people changed very rapidly.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,301
sOklpJa.jpg




A relic of the times, this message will always apply to stuff like this

There is questionable sexual stuff in Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and in Phantom Pain too and these are recent games. It's just not the same issue. Kojima is immature and a pervert. In Peace Walker there is tape where Strangelove is touching Paz while rubbing lotion over her and Paz is angry and says she can defend herself against a woman like that. In the very same game you first find Cecilia or whatever her name in her undies because she was stripped by soldiers so she would be too embarrassed to flee (in the middle of a jungle...) In Ground Zeroes there is a tape of Paz being raped by Chico (a minor). In Ground Zeroes Paz also had a bomb in her vagina. In Phantom Pain Quiet runs around half naked and move like a stripper for a ridiculous plot reason.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
I don't know my history, but gaming doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even then, you don't put the burden on writers to expose bigotry. This was common sense then, people chose not apply it.
Perhaps you need to know your history so you can gain better context. There wasn't a major outlet for LGBTQ+ voices to be heard and taken seriously by the mainstream in their depiction in media in 2004. We were all pretty ignorant in what was acceptable, including me. The evolution of the internet, 24/7 news cycle, numerous platforms, social media, and better inclusion and representation in TV and films has made a dramatic change in getting more people conscious or woke about it now.​
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
yet chose not to apply it for key characters in the game.
Maybe because other key character dying would cause continuity issues while this character was never going to appear again? After all Ocelot and Eva both appear in future games. Not to mention there are a lot of those types of choices in the game. For instance you can approach The End and kill him or let him die himself. Stuff like the ghosts you see fighting The Sorrow are dependent on who you've killed during the game. Etc
 

Kyari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,848
There's a ton of problematic stuff all over the Metal Gear series, no one has ever really kicked up that much of a fuss about it because Kojima can do no wrong in the eyes of many people.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Kojima has had a history of strange representation and writing with regards to LGBT characters and ideas. I mean, his tweet here is a good example:

gtmN92O.png


In general, despite Kojima being a weirdo on his own terms, a lot of his views do still stink of traditional Japanese value systems. Japan is not actually that positive towards sexual minorities, despite its... comparatively progressive stance towards transgender topics. This isn't to say that Japan is great with these issues either, though.

As a gay person who generally loves Kojima's work, there are definitely aspects to his personification of queer individuals that rubs me the wrong way even as he frequently at least attempts to subvert gender norms with his characters. This, however, feels like a result of trying to create unique, different characters and juxtapose otherness with his wacky-yet-serious plotlines. I don't think the intent, unfortunately, is to portray LGBTQ characters positively.

It's a bummer. I'm hoping he gets better. Especially now that he's good friends with Del Toro. I think he's evolved at least a bit from his Snatcher and Policenauts days... but he's still got a ways to go.


There has been a lot of speculation, mostly back in the day. Maybe he was responding to that. Not to excuse any of the iffier things.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Kojima has had a history of strange representation and writing with regards to LGBT characters and ideas. I mean, his tweet here is a good example:

gtmN92O.png


In general, despite Kojima being a weirdo on his own terms, a lot of his views do still stink of traditional Japanese value systems. Japan is not actually that positive towards sexual minorities, despite its... comparatively progressive stance towards transgender topics. This isn't to say that Japan is great with these issues either, though.

As a gay person who generally loves Kojima's work, there are definitely aspects to his personification of queer individuals that rubs me the wrong way even as he frequently at least attempts to subvert gender norms with his characters. This, however, feels like a result of trying to create unique, different characters and juxtapose otherness with his wacky-yet-serious plotlines. I don't think the intent, unfortunately, is to portray LGBTQ characters positively.

It's a bummer. I'm hoping he gets better. Especially now that he's good friends with Del Toro. I think he's evolved at least a bit from his Snatcher and Policenauts days... but he's still got a ways to go.

One thing I always found interesting was that despite two of his confirmed gay characters being bad guys, them being gay never felt like it was treated as bad.

Like Volgin's feeling for Raikov are literally the only time he shows anything resembling compassion.

Then in MGS2 when Raiden is weirded out that Vamp was in a relationship with Fortune's father, Snake tells him "would it have been better if it was her mother?" Like it was calling him out.

And finally Strangelove who despite having somewhat warped view of the Boss it still ends better then her relationship with a man and arguably her most positive traits come from her feeling for the boss.

Like it's still weird but it felt like it was portrayed as a positive aspect of their characters.

Then of course we have Ocelot. I don't know. I'm not exactly an expert at this kind of stuff and I'm not gonna tell people they can't be upset by these portrayals but it's really hard to tell intent with Kohima due to his eccentricities.

I will say as bad as some of this stuff comes across I don't think he actually intends any ill will.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
Raikov isn't Raiden, he's purely a joke character, that's why no Time Paradox. As for his doppleganger reatment, I think the team felt pretty burned by the backlash against Raiden and unfortunately ran with the joke. They seemed to be rather proud of the character in MGS2 and I believe Yoji Shinkawa said Raiden's design in MGS4/Rising is a depiction of the character after being ravaged by fan critique, so they do feel he's been unfairly treated.
No, Twin Snakes was the VR Simulation of the Shadow Moses Incident that Raiden mentioned he went through prior to his mission in MSG2.

That's why Snake is jumping off missiles and everything is presented as over the top - because the information gathered from eye witnesses and Nastasha Romanenko's book was exaggerated as people tend to do when they recount events (or intentionally misleading to protect Snake and Friends as in the case of Romanenko's book).



Now let me tell you about my theory on how Solid Snake is still in the Psycho Mantis boss fight and every game since then has just been a psychic illusion...

Actucally its heavily hinted the entirity of mgs1 is a VR mission because of hows it played is said to have mechanics only in VR missions.

Now Twin Snakes is Octocon's retelling of the events of Shadow Moses...
 

MechaMarmaset

Member
Nov 20, 2017
3,574
There is questionable sexual stuff in Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and in Phantom Pain too and these are recent games. It's just not the same issue. Kojima is immature and a pervert. In Peace Walker there is tape where Strangelove is touching Paz while rubbing lotion over her and Paz is angry and says she can defend herself against a woman like that. In the very same game you first find Cecilia or whatever her name in her undies because she was stripped by soldiers so she would be too embarrassed to flee (in the middle of a jungle...) In Ground Zeroes there is a tape of Paz being raped by Chico (a minor). In Ground Zeroes Paz also had a bomb in her vagina. In Phantom Pain Quiet runs around half naked and move like a stripper for a ridiculous plot reason.

You forgot that mission in Peace Walker where 40-year-old Big Boss goes on a date with PAZ (who he believes to be 16) in her underwear.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,997
Canada
It is a joke that taken today would not fly. Plus it was kind of a nod to what the President did to Raiden when they first met in MGS 2.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
I don't remember anyone being worked up about the character except for people that liked Raiden and at the time a lot of people were excited to have Snake back and a "proper Metal Gear" game. Raiden himself was created to cater to the Japanese audience since Snake was too American for their taste. Hence why Raiden was a pretty boy, they wanted the title to attract as much attention in their home country as it did elsewhere. He was their attempt to do so. MGS2 is a lot of things to a lot of people, a lot were left dissatisfied and MGS3 was when Kojima got reigned in some, and yeah since a lot of hate was directed at Raiden he was made a joke somewhat in 3 as a different character. Snake was the one true character again, even if it was the Big Boss version. All was right in the world. That in itself was what most people cared about and so that's all that mattered while Raiden went off hated so much he got reduced to a head with a spinal cord and cyborged up to be a bad ass.
 

VaporSnake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,603
Is there even another game from the time or before that prominently features a homosexual relationship?

Definitely dated and offensive by todays standards, but I always thought it was kinda neat that it gave Volgin a bit more nuance rather than simply being your typical macho russian renegade villain.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,408
Yeah, it's fucked up. Also every MGS game has had sexist shit in it, from Meryl in her underwear in 1, to the various "Hold R1" moments in 3 and 4, to how Kojima wanted the mocap actresses for the Beauties in 4 to be nude for his own enjoyment, the entire gross-ass shit with Paz in Peace Walker, and of course Quiet. There's also the shit in Snatcher as well.

I honestly don't get why Kojima gets a pass from so many.