Umm... I haven't been following this tournament that closely but wasn't there another story out of this US Open... where the umpire stepped down and like... personally coached Nick Kyrgios?
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Naomi Osaka claims U.S. Open title after Serena Williams meltdown (Read OP)
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You can say that Ramos and Lahyani are really at the opposite end of the spectrum in how they handle the players, while the former are a stickler for rules the latter is known to be cordial towards players. He IMO also crossed the line with how he pepped up Krygios though, even someone like Federer agreed to that.
The problem with such belief is that it has no basis on any of Ramos previous performance.
The facts are that Ramoshas a history of giving code violation to male players for similar behavior and is known for being a harsher umpire in general.https://news.sky.com/story/serena-w...player-umpire-carlos-ramos-has-upset-11494215
Considering he has given code violations to Murray for calling him stupid, and to Kyrgios for yelling at a towel boy (a much lesser offense than insulting an umpire), what makes you think he wouldn't give a code violation to a male player calling him a liar and a thief?
Yup, Mohamed Lahyani went off his chair to encourage Kyrgios. The game turned around after that too. That was an actual breach of protocol by the umpire.
Well this is the thing, in other sports players tend to know the referees / umpires. I go back to rugby (as it's my main sport) but teams will adapt their training / game plan based on which referee they are going to have. They know certain referee's target certain things.
Ramos is a well known umpire who's been round a fair while. Serena knew exactly what he was like, but continued to push him for *reasons*
It's fair enough she might feel hard done by due to other decisions made by other umpires, but from what I've been reading Ramos is fairly consistent.
You could try and standardise all umpire encounters, but the only real way to do that is to have a no-speaking to umpire rule, other than to call a challenge and ask for a toilet break / medic. Any other words and you get a warning
Ahh, i did miss it. I'm relieved to hear that. I take back what I said. Going to go back and edit my post.
They also have a modicum of respect for the ref and know it's completely unacceptable to question his integrity. Serena should have a word with Dylan Hartley.
There have been many examples presented in this thread of the same umpire treating men in the exact same fashion. You're basing your view above on absolutely nothing.
There is no sexism here. Serena is using it as cover for her embarrassing behaviour and it's working for her.
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What is this based on? Where's the evidence to support this? No one seems to have produced any statistical validation of this belief that either the tournament, or this umpire in particular, unfairly penalise women for violations that they wouldn't penalise men for. In fact, the only numbers I can seem to find state that there were 32 code violations in this tournament, of which 23 were awarded to men and 9 to women. That doesn't seem to jibe with the narrative that women are being treated more harshly.
If someone wants to argue that there should be greater consistency with regards to how different umpires handle the same kind of infractions, that's fine by me. That wouldn't have helped Serena though, as greater consistency can only be realistically attained through more stringent application of the letter of the rules, i.e. not cutting players any slack. Serena broke those rules.
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory false equivalence. History of similar behaviour.
Exactly. Calling for sexism here where there is none presented, reminds me of Kevin Spacey trying to weasel out by pulling "I've decided to live now as a Gay man".
This cheapens the fight. Serena Williams has fought adversity all her life, she should know better. But being under stress and feeling the record slipping away against Osaka (and fairly) made her tilt. I can understand why she used the card, but it was wrong.
What pains me more is that she is insisting on this instead of taking the L.
I think Serena was in the wrong and the umpire made the right calls but that is quite an extreme comparison to make. Serena broke a few tennis rules and argued with the umpire, Spacey used "the gay card" to deflect from real, serious crimes.
As much as I disagree with Williams here I also don't think she is being disingenuous. She felt the umpire was unfair, literally every single player has felt like that at some point regardless of whether they were or not. I think Serena has just misjudged the situation on this occasion but she has had to deal with sexism plenty of times before and there was issues with sexism in this very tournament.
I was not trying to make a comparison but ultimately ended up doing it. I'm very sorry. The Kevin Spacey case is of course, way more grave and dangerous to the fight of LGBT people.
Every player has felt unfair calls being called against them. It's part of sports not agreeing with the ref.
I understand why Serena Williams did all this, but I just can't agree with her because she was wrong in this particular case. She decided to fight on the wrong hill, so yeah, I agree with you.
I was rooting for Osaka, but think what happened to Serena was too over the top. So I was happy to see an article that was defending Serena getting some traction. Doesn't mean I didn't want Osaka to win.
User Banned (5 Days): Inflammatory generalisations. Ignoring mod post. Account still in junior phase.
This story creates a bad combo of:
- People who don't like Serena to begin with.
- People who have a problem with women/black women.
- People who have a problem with women who speak up (SHE'S being hysterical vs. HE'S just standing up for himself)
- People who've creepily adopted Osaka as some sort of waifu because she cried a bit and gave some meek-sounding answers (she's so humble!)
Man a Washington Post reporter on CNN is breaking down why the umpire was completely out of line and acted absurdly. The double standard with all the stuff the men have done in the past is amazing.
They do, it's happened many times before. Her coach was caught on camera doing it and has gone on record admitting he does it all the time. Not sure how backing the umpire here is seen as ridiculous.
Wrong.
Umps give out verbal warnings because it's such a minor infraction that happens all the time.
Giving a code violation is ridiculous and led to the lost point later in the game which should have been the first code violation.
Such an unbiased and objective outlook, lol
Which category do these guys fall into?
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Except he didn't. The coaching warning was levied against the coach, not her. For that call, she seeing or acting on the coaching is totally immaterial, what matters is that the coach intends to communicate with the player.
That Serena perceived it as a personal slight says much more about her than anything the umpire did, really.
First offence warning, second offence point penalty, third offence game penalty.
Coaching is a code violation, racquet abuse is a code violation, verbal abuse is a code violation.
The first code violation is the warning, you don't get a warning for a warning.
Snooze. Look up how many code violations there were in tennis this year for coaching.
You clearly don't watch tennis.
To get a code violation for coaching you basically have to be cheating. Coaching happens, but it doesn't get a code violation.
And no, the first code violation is not a "warning." It's a code violation. Ump's give out warnings without giving a code violation.
Nadal has been getting coaching his entire life like most of these players. I have never seen anyone do anything about it. I have also seen Nadal and many other players take advantage of the injury timeout, again not even a warning.
I have seen Nadal and Djokovic make a mockery of the time limit on serves in big points. Only once did I ever see either player get warned for it. And it was definitely not in a Grand Slam final.
The umpire was complete bullshit against Serena. And if you want to point to her getting coached why didn't the other player get a similar violation for that?
It was bullshit and totally unfair and almost any tennis player would have acted the same as Serena or even worse.
It is against the rules but then call that shit in the early matches and make it consistent. To do it in a Grand Slam final when the outcome was still in doubt is a a huge failure. That ump should never be allowed to set foot on a tennis court of a major ever again.
Show me the stats.
Better yet, watch the last 10 years of tennis and come back to me.
Jesus fucking christ
That cartoon was drawn in 2018.
It feels something out of early XX century racist publications.
This stupid is case is bringing racists out of the woodwork, which has that thing nice going for it I guess.
It doesn't happen does it? This was at this year's Wimbledon:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-t...ion-sparks-ostapenko-to-victory-idUKKBN1JZ1J3
The first offence gets a warning. It is literally in the rules (Grand Slam Code of Conduct Article III S.).
Ramos has a reputation for enforcing the rules if I remember correctly - if anything it's the other umpires who are letting him down because they never have the balls to enforce the rules, especially against big name players. Tennis has a huge problem with the rules not being enforced properly. Nadal and Djokovic have gotten away with wasting shit loads of time between points for years and it's a joke. The notion that rules shouldn't be enforced because it's a final makes no sense. Theoretically speaking if Serena was told by her coach from that moment to start serve and volleying way more and that tactical change won her the match then what? That's literally cheating by the letter of the law.
Wow. Wasn't expecting to see blatant racism and sexism this early in the morning.
An article (in Portuguese, from 2015) about the Umpire.
https://observador.pt/especiais/o-portugues-que-vai-todos-os-grand-slams/
Google Translated because I cba
https://observador.pt/especiais/o-portugues-que-vai-todos-os-grand-slams/
Google Translated because I cba
If you want to enforce the rules go ahead. Just do it fairly and intelligently.
I would have said the same thing if the ump started to penalize Djoker for wasting time on his serve in a tiebreak.
Make it clear BEFORE the tournament starts what is going to be enforced. And make sure it is enforced in the early rounds.
That is patently unfair for a umpire to decide to start enforcing a rule that was never really enforced against the stars before in the middle of a GS final.
You really have to reach to find any way to defend the way they handled the final.
Dang, Osaka smoked Williams with that final serve.
I just now got to watch the match. I don't think Serena was going to win no matter what happened. Osaka was in control the with that 6-2 in the first too.
I just now got to watch the match. I don't think Serena was going to win no matter what happened. Osaka was in control the with that 6-2 in the first too.
What about the 1000 other grand slams?
What is your point? That umps give out code violations for coaching? No shit. That doesn't change the fact it is super rare and that it is usually reserved for huge violations like talking/yelling to your player.
Serena got over punished and we got armchair refs and casual tennis telling otherwise when other professional tennis players and analysts have called bullshit on what happened.
Even if she did get a duff call (although, from replays, it's as clear a case of coaching you're likely to see) she's a pro and the other 2 violations (the ones that actually punished her) were 100% on her.
Is there actually any way to find this information because it would be helpful? I looked and can't find any statistics on this kind of thing.
For me, it's the only one that is even debatable because I think it's pretty well accepted that coaching happens far more often than it is punished for although not something that is easy for the umpire to always catch either, to be fair. I watch tennis regularly and certainly wouldn't say "no Ump calls a code violation for coaching" but it is less common than other violations.
Since there are no stats to show either way I did a quick google search for "tennis coaching violation" and it brought these up:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-t...ion-sparks-ostapenko-to-victory-idUKKBN1JZ1J3
https://www.tennisworldusa.org/tenn...-says-coaching-code-violation-was-ridiculous/
https://indianexpress.com/article/s...d-goffin-but-gets-coaching-violation-4939304/
While 3 cases in the last 12 months isn't definitive of how often they are or are not punished either way it is enough to show it does happen. That was only the first of her three violations too so it's not like that's the one that really cost her. The next two were all of her own making.
Was. Not anymore. She is a loser now (technically correct, because she just lost).