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Deleted member 29939

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,572
Cant decide if this new trend of asking posters if they are white males as a last Hail Mary attempt to circumvent discussion and shut shit down with accusations of priviledged mansplaining, is sad or hilarious.

Already seeing people put disclaimers in their posts pointing out they are not white... lol
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,657
Professor Quixote said:
The last penalty where she called him a liar and a thief and he penalized her a game without first saying "stop or you're going to get docked a game."

He had literally just been told by Serena to not talk to her
No you see, it was the ref's job to coddle this 20+ year tennis veteran throwing a tantrum, as if she didn't know what the rules are of the sport she has won 23 grand slams for.
 

RPTGB

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,189
UK
For an athlete who is supposedly the "GOAT" in Women's Tennis, Williams hasn't got anywhere near the class that Graff, Navratilova, or her older sister had. She let herself down and ruined the better player's moment in the sun. Poor show.
 

Deleted member 29939

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,572
lots of people here want to take shots at a powerful black woman. Using code words like "class" "trashy" "meltdown" Nah.. people can see right through what you really mean racists.

jck.gif
 
Oct 27, 2017
627
He had literally just been told by Serena to not talk to her

Sure. In that Fed video I posted, he also told the chair umpire: "Don't fucking talk to me" and the ump continued. I don't think it's too much to ask the ref to say, "Serena, if you don't knock it off, I'm going to penalize you a game."

Well, you're the one claiming ITT that there's some kind of implicit bias going on. What exactly is that based on?

Also, "penalizing a game" can only happen if the player continuously does code violations. It's just the penalty for the third one. Two of Serena's code violations are, like, not even debatable. The same umpire gave Djorkovic a code violation for gesturing in his direction.

I'm not saying it is definitely the case, I'm saying it's possible. What are you basing it off of that it is 100% certain that implicit bias was not involved? Again, saying that a rule exists and she broke the rule is not a sufficient answer. The concern is selective enforcement. I'm going to paste a previous post which I believe answers your questions and summarizes my position.

And again, what he did wrong was: "The last penalty where she called him a liar and a thief and he penalized her a game without first saying "stop or you're going to get docked a game." Sure, by the letter of the law, he had the right to penalize her. But the point is that plenty of players in tennis and other sports have mouthed off much worse than that and not been penalized. Rarely is something that relatively harmless penalized, especially when a game penalty is at stake."

You keep saying there are examples of penalties being given for less. Setting aside that there are examples of penalties not given for much worse, the counterargument is that the rules are disproportionately enforced against Serena. There aren't well documented statistics on hand so it appears we are at an impasse. I'm (and I believe most defending Serena are) not saying it is absolutely 100% certain this ref is sexist and would have behaved differently if she were a man. That is not knowable. All we can do is take our best guess given the circumstances.

That being said, I think it's also incorrect of you to rely on the letter of the law to simply say "This has 100% nothing to do with bias or sexism." I would argue that your argument is the equivalent of saying: "Here is a video of a white guy that was killed for reaching into his pocket. The cop killing this black man for reaching into his pocket was therefore 100% not wrong. Those are the rules."

As far as the code violations, the one I really take issue with is the third. My point was that you expecting me to find other instances of this specific umpire handling similar situations differently is not reasonable, just like it's not reasonable of me to ask you to defend your position by finding other times where he issued game penalties for similar conduct.

As a side-note, I don't think penalizing someone's first misconduct violation is the same as someone's third. Yes - the rules are the same, but refs have discretion and it's essentially accepted that when violations are compounded and the penalties become harsher and potentially match/grandslam/championship-altering, it should be inarguable that the person deserved it. So by pointing to other times where this specific ump penalized someone for similar conduct, I don't think a warning is the same as a third penalty.
 

ahoyhoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,319
lots of people here want to take shots at a powerful black woman. Using code words like "class" "trashy" "meltdown" Nah.. people can see right through what you really mean racists.

Ah yes, bundle two coded words together with a noncoded word to make all three sound similarly offensive.

"Stalin, Pol Pot, kaylaz: three people I typed out in this sentence. Coincidence?"
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
Cant decide if this new trend of asking posters if they are white males as a last Hail Mary attempt to circumvent discussion and shut shit down with accusations of priviledged mansplaining, is sad or hilarious.

Already seeing people put disclaimers in their posts pointing out they are not white... lol

It's weird how people are trying to use this obvious case of entitled behavior as showpiece for sexism and now racism.
 

Swab

Member
Oct 25, 2017
112
I see Diet Racism is still a popular refreshment. And the reason people are asking if those dismissing this are white males is fucking obvious.

We see you, y'all ain't slick.
 
Oct 27, 2017
627
No you see, it was the ref's job to coddle this 20+ year tennis veteran throwing a tantrum, as if she didn't know what the rules are of the sport she has won 23 grand slams for.

Not what I'm saying. Again:

I think reasonable minds can differ on whether in this specific case, the ump would have treated a white-male tennis player differently. It also can be the case that both (1) the ref was implicitly biased/serena was a victim of double standards, and (2) she did not handle the situation well and if she did, the situation could have been avoided. These are not mutually exclusive.
 

bigred50

Member
Oct 31, 2017
348
Serena has a history of this. She's a sore loser. Simple as that.

She initially completely over reacted to getting a "warning" for fuck's sake. I bet if she was winning at that point in the match she would have shrugged it off and moved on.

She's a poor sport and a terrible role model.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
This is textbook meltdown lol at people in denial

some of us actually have experience "competing in high-level sports" and "being a referee" and find this outrage culture of trying to portray Serena as having a meltdown over yelling at a referee as ridiculous

though maybe high-level is too generous for me haha, i never did win any national events :(
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,357
some of us actually have experience "competing in high level sports" and "being a referee" and find this outrage culture of trying to portray Serena as having a meltdown over yelling at a referee as ridiculous
What if I have both of these things, and have no problem calling it a meltdown? What then?
 

TelemachusD

Member
Nov 22, 2017
86
Just curious. How many people in this thread saying sexism and racism wasn't a part of this call happen to be white males(the majority on most gaming forums)?
It's the internet. We could all be mutant space badgers. Who cares? People have opinions, and they either are or are not backed up by facts. Sometimes when the facts are ambiguous or disputed, a person's individual knowledge and experience shape their views, but for another to claim to know someone's internal motivations for an action or opinion (like the author of the WaPo piece) with no evidence is irrational.

Look at the possibilities. The umpire...
1. ...is subconsciously racist/sexist.
2. ...is consciously racist/sexist.
3. ...just dislikes Serena herself.
4. ...is inconsistent applying the rules.
5. ...is consistent about applying the rules, but is harsher than other umpires.
6. ...just gets easily angry about a player disrespecting his authority.
7. ...had a bet on Serena losing and wanted to make sure it happened.
8. ...is fair and impartial.
9. ...has some other trait or motivation I couldn't guess at.

Given that Ramos has done similar things in the past to other players, and is known for being a "stickler for the rules", it provides evidence that #5 is more likely, but certainly doesn't rule out other possibilities. The thing is, being a harsh umpire is not a negative character trait. Being a racist certainly is however, and I would think impugning a person's character with such a negative label would require a decent argument with a bit more evidence other than stating it a self-evident fact, whether one is applying it to the umpire or posters on this forum.
 
Oct 27, 2017
627
some of us actually have experience "competing in high-level sports" and "being a referee" and find this outrage culture of trying to portray Serena as having a meltdown over yelling at a referee as ridiculous

though maybe high-level is too generous for me haha, i never did win any national events :(

Agreed. As I've mentioned multiple - Serena was the featured story on cnn.com last night with a pic of her about to smash her racket, with MELTDOWN in big, bold letters. Absurd.
 

Irminsul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,039
I'm not saying it is definitely the case, I'm saying it's possible. What are you basing it off of that it is 100% certain that implicit bias was not involved? Again, saying that a rule exists and she broke the rule is not a sufficient answer. The concern is selective enforcement. I'm going to paste a previous post which I believe answers your questions and summarizes my position.

As far as the code violations, the one I really take issue with is the third. My point was that you expecting me to find other instances of this specific umpire handling similar situations differently is not reasonable, just like it's not reasonable of me to ask you to defend your position by finding other times where he issued game penalties for similar conduct.

As a side-note, I don't think penalizing someone's first misconduct violation is the same as someone's third. Yes - the rules are the same, but refs have discretion and it's essentially accepted that when violations are compounded and the penalties become harsher and potentially match/grandslam/championship-altering, it should be inarguable that the person deserved it. So by pointing to other times where this specific ump penalized someone for similar conduct, I don't think a warning is the same as a third penalty.
Sure it's possible, but lots of things are possible. I just don't think it's a useful hypothesis when everything could've just as easily played out if the umpire wasn't biased. As I said, he actually handed out code violations for much less against white male players, and, I mean, Serena was talking for quite a while when the umpire finally handed out the third violation. He could've done that much earlier.

As for your side note, I don't really think that's true for tennis. Players have been defaulted for "simple" code violations. If other umpires handle that differently, they should change their behaviour, not the other way around. At least in my personal opinion, I really don't like players getting too much leeway. If you don't get the hint after getting a point deduced, maybe a game penalty is just what you deserve.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
hhmh.

i guess they could answer the question if its such a minor and trivial thing. unless they know that the privilege and the mansplaining would suddenly become apparent and a clear need to change the subject evolves.
What's the question? This is the post that gif was in response to:
lots of people here want to take shots at a powerful black woman. Using code words like "class" "trashy" "meltdown" Nah.. people can see right through what you really mean racists.
 

merchantdude

Member
Oct 29, 2017
276
some of us actually have experience "competing in high-level sports" and "being a referee" and find this outrage culture of trying to portray Serena as having a meltdown over yelling at a referee as ridiculous

though maybe high-level is too generous for me haha, i never did win any national events :(

Experience in "high level sports" isn't relevant. For vast majority of people this clearly counts as a meltdown lol. It's crazy we are even debating this.
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
some of us actually have experience "competing in high-level sports" and "being a referee" and find this outrage culture of trying to portray Serena as having a meltdown over yelling at a referee as ridiculous

though maybe high-level is too generous for me haha, i never did win any national events :(
When she didn't let the issue go in the most critical point of the match, "meltdown" doesn't seem preposterous imo
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
That seems like a problem with the sport then, if it's known that everybody does it but it isn't always called they should take precautions to make sure it doesn't happen at all, and it wouldn't even be hard to do. That's if they have an interest in giving everyone a level playing field at least.I understand Serena was punished for something she did not do and that's how it works, but I can also understand her anger at that, I think that's a very human reaction to have, especially in such a high-stakes situation. Given the proper context, I don't think the abuse call was the right call as it isn't a stretch to call someone who takes something from you when you didn't do anything wrong yourself a thief.

To an outside observer, what I saw from her was a spirited discussion and what I got out of the situation was the umpire just didn't like having his authority challenged. I do not think he was in a threatened position, I don't think Serena was out of control to a degree where his hand was forced to call the penalty.

I also understand I don't know a lot about Tennis and I have no problem saying I'm ignorant on it, but from the videos I saw that's what I got out of it, people who follow the sport will likely have a far different take.

This isn't what happened. Coaching isn't a rampant problem. The rule is debated, but that doesn't change it from being a rule. Serena needs to blame her coach, given the HUUUUGE caveat that she didn't actually get the messages the coach was trying to send. No one feels like Serena was unjustly punished for coaching. No one. It happened, she got a reprimand. That was that. Then she broke her racket, which breaks another rule. She lost points due to it. Then she went on a tirade against the judge, calling him a thief for taking a point, and she lost the game by the judge's decision.

I get that you don't normally watch tennis, but the way you're explaining it isn't what happened at all.
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Experience in "high level sports" isn't relevant. For vast majority of people this clearly counts as a meltdown lol. It's crazy we are even debating this.

And who is the vast majority HERE mostly made up of? What's that demographic made up of and how is that not relevant.?WE could literally take every post/reply in this thread with racist/misogynistic subtext/implications/undertones and we'd have that answer.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,657
This isn't what happened. Coaching isn't a rampant problem. The rule is debated, but that doesn't change it from being a rule. Serena needs to blame her coach, given the HUUUUGE caveat that she didn't actually get the messages the coach was trying to send. No one feels like Serena was unjustly punished for coaching. No one. It happened, she got a reprimand. That was that. Then she broke her racket, which breaks another rule. She lost points due to it. Then she went on a tirade against the judge, calling him a thief for taking a point, and she lost the game by the judge's decision.

I get that you don't normally watch tennis, but the way you're explaining it isn't what happened at all.
Why bring facts into this. Most people walking into this thread people probably never watch tennis, nevermind the match or even the footage of the situation being discussed.
 

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
It's really embarrassing how many smart people can't see the obvious. Williams is a sore loser that handled her loss poorly, and she dampered Naomi's moment and made it about herself. People put her on such a high pedestal but don't realize what being "the best" does to a person's ego.

The main sexism here is people paying less attention to when male athletes do the same shit. There are people on twitter that actually think Federer is always composed in calm when he loses. Athletes at the top of their sports are almost universally egotistical dicks, and the sooner people stop seeing them as good people on top of being good athletes, the better.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,261
No one answers your very relevant question and continue to mansplain. If put in a room with one of the many Tennis Champions defending Serena online and in interviews these chowderheads would have ZERO to say.
I wouldn't exactly call them unbiased. A loosening of the rules would benefit them too.
 

Lastbroadcast

Member
Jul 6, 2018
1,938
Sydney, Australia
In my view the original penalty for coaching was justified, given that Serena's coach has come out and admitted it.

Serena then behaved like an absolute idiot.

Did the umpire then over-react? Probably. The game penalty to me is ridiculous.
 

Benita

Banned
Aug 27, 2018
862
people who follow the sport will likely have a far different take.
This is where you should probably self-conclude that it's time to bow out of the conversation.

Most people unfamiliar with cricket or golf would be stunned at what sort of behaviour is penalised. But people familiar with those sports don't complain because different sports have different rules and etiquette.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
It's really embarrassing how many smart people can't see the obvious. Williams is a sore loser that handled her loss poorly, and she dampered Naomi's moment and made it about herself. People put her on such a high pedestal but don't realize what being "the best" does to a person's ego.

The main sexism here is people paying less attention to when male athletes do the same shit. There are people on twitter that actually think Federer is always composed in calm when he loses. Athletes at the top of their sports are almost universally egotistical dicks, and the sooner people stop seeing them as good people on top of being good athletes, the better.

Murray, Djokovic, Nadal, Federer. They'v all said they know better than the judge and yelled at them. I mean, Murray yells mostly at himself. I totally agree with you. I've said it several times in this thread, but I'm fed up with Serena when she loses. It's always circumstance.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Serena has a history of this. She's a sore loser. Simple as that.

She initially completely over reacted to getting a "warning" for fuck's sake. I bet if she was winning at that point in the match she would have shrugged it off and moved on.

She's a poor sport and a terrible role model.
And it's taking away focus from the actual winner. First Japanese woman to ever win?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
Its absurd to aspect some weird liberal interpretation of the rules so Serena can avoid a penalty. Ignoring that Osaka was always calm through the match.

So which of the both behaviors to we want to embrace? The sore loser or the one which showed sportsmanship?
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
Coaching isn't a rampant problem.
I guess I misunderstood then, I saw a fair amount of posts and Serena's coach saying it was just something pretty much everyone did and it was more a matter of if you got caught or not.
No one feels like Serena was unjustly punished for coaching. No one.
http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/...coaching-rule-grand-slam-tennis-let-change-it
The code violation was certainly unfair to Williams. The rule itself is so amorphous that it can be bent to any purpose. It needs to be changed -- or scrapped altogether.
This was the first article I clicked on.
Then she broke her racket, which breaks another rule.
I agree it broke a rule, I was just trying to explain why she would be in a headspace to do that given the circumstances
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
In my view the original penalty for coaching was justified, given that Serena's coach has come out and admitted it.

Serena then behaved like an absolute idiot.

Did the umpire then over-react? Probably. The game penalty to me is ridiculous.

this is my take on the situation as well

her behavior was definitely in poor taste and she - along with the referee who only served to escalate the situation - have taken away from Naomi Osaka's momentous achievement
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
In my view the original penalty for coaching was justified, given that Serena's coach has come out and admitted it.

Serena then behaved like an absolute idiot.

Did the umpire then over-react? Probably. The game penalty to me is ridiculous.

Do you normally watch tennis? What is 'overreaction'? I mean, maybe it's because I'm used to soccer, where everyone knows that if you try to argue with a judge over their decision, you are playing with fire. They will come out whenever the fuck they feel like it to beat your ass down. Keep pushing, and you'll be punished. That's what happened here. The judges don't always beat this shit down like this, but when they do, it's never like "oh shit, he can't do that". He absolutely can. He's the judge. He makes the calls. This was within the rules. It was totally just. There's no controversy over the rules. I watch tennis regularly, and there's nothing that says this is overreaction. She was literally given a warning. Then deducted points. She kept it up. The game was taken from her.

I guess I misunderstood then, I saw a fair amount of posts and Serena's coach saying it was just something pretty much everyone did and it was more a matter of if you got caught or not.

http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/...coaching-rule-grand-slam-tennis-let-change-it

This was the first article I clicked on.

I agree it broke a rule, I was just trying to explain why she would be in a headspace to do that given the circumstances

As I said, the rule is often discussed, but it's still a rule. You have to respect it. And you still don't seem to grasp why EVEN WITH THE HUGE 'IF' that Serena didn't know and didn't want to be coached, that it's the coach fucking Serena over for coaching. Serena needs to blame her coach if the coach did something Serena didn't want him to do. Serena is punished. And no one feels that' unjust. Someone may argue that the rule is this and that, but no one can say it's not a rule, and that it's not totally just.

That she can't compose herself after that doesn't make this any better. She's at fault at every step of the way. You still paint a narrative that no one else agrees on. It seems you don't know the situation fully, and when you yourself don't have that much experience with tennis, perhaps don't try to interpret the situation.
 

Deleted member 13628

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,098
This will probably shatter a lot of people's minds in here, but Serena Williams herself has benefitted from getting special treatment at major tournaments (especially at the US Open) and leeway from umpires and being able to push the boundaries. Probably more so than other top players. But you would only know that if you actually watched professional tennis and had a basic grasp over how the rules work and what kind of on court behavior generally gets people in trouble (including the player in question), and thus had a broader perspective on this situation beyond simply "OMG a black female athlete just got penalized and fined! Injustice!".

But sure, let's just assume anyone with knowledge of the game is a white male neo nazi. That's much easier than learning something.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
This is where you should probably self-conclude that it's time to bow out of the conversation.
Well, I think a lot of people are weighing in because this is a pretty big deal. I don't think there's anything wrong with stating your opinion, and I even went above and beyond that and noted my opinion is unqualified. We're just having a conversation here, trying to gain a better understanding, if you'd rather not engage with me or others who aren't familiar with the sport that is certainly up to you, I will leave the conversation when I feel I have nothing more to add or when I have no more questions or have cemented my opinion.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,711
United States
It's entirely possible to take issue with Serena Williams' behavior while also acknowledging the adversity she has faced in her career. Please do not make inflammatory generalizations or insinuations towards other members based on this criticism.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,655
They can call somebody racist and I'm not surprised as that is the default answer for some.
Why are you not surprised?
Yes because apparently a white male shouldn't be allowed to called a meltdown a meltdown. Doing so is automatically racist.
Forgive me if I'm wrong (and I believe we've had similar conversations before), but I get the sense from your posts you think people are overreacting to racism, or things perceived to have a racial component.