Dragon Quest XIs story is everything BOTWs should have been

If you want story in BotW, you read through the dialogues, you go to a stable and listen to the myths and legends there, you talk to Kass... Gerudo town has plenty of story, or at least world building, that's unintrusive and well written. Same for Hateno, or even Lurelin Village. That fits the game perfectly.

The more involved story, the one you go through to get to the Beasts, could be better, sure. But the way the game is designed, there could be 50 hours between two of those missions, so you can't exactly design them like a regular linear one. They were absolutely right to focus on world building instead of actual story. Maybe in the next game we'll have both, and it'll work very well, but for now they did what they had to do, with the right priorities.

Apples and oranges.

For me, the whole point in BOTW is that you're given the freedom to create your own story in a world that is so open and so vast with so much to see and do. Sure, a stronger storyline would've been nice but the game is designed for you to make your own moments etc (I know it's a cliche but it's true).

DQ on the other hand has to rely on a more structured and scripted story because it's gameplay loop doesn't offer the same level of freedom.

Charamiwa said:

If you want story in BotW, you read through the dialogues, you go to a stable and listen to the myths and legends there, you talk to Kass... Gerudo town has plenty of story, or at least world building, that's unintrusive and well written. Same for Hateno, or even Lurelin Village. That fits the game perfectly.

The more involved story, the one you go through to get to the Beasts, could be better, sure. But the way the game is designed, there could be 50 hours between two of those missions, so you can't exactly design them like a regular linear one. They were absolutely right to focus on world building instead of actual story. Maybe in the next game we'll have both, and it'll work very well, but for now they did what they had to do, with the right priorities.

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I couldn't have said it better

Yeah. Also, Pokemon Sun and Moon's story is everything Call of Duty World War's should've been.

No, I think DQ is the exact wrong template to follow for Zelda. Horii's writing is good, no doubt, but structurally speaking, the vignettes don't fit the level of freedom BotW gives to you and become (comparatively) overbearing. As others have mentioned, the appeal of BotW is that you are making your own story. If anything, Majora's Mask's character-driven approach to storytelling through the NPCs is a better example of what BotW2 should attempt to do.

I'm liking it a lot so far so agreed

You should play Dragon Quest VII OP. You'll love it if those town side-stories is what you like in your VG's writing.

TAH3145 said:

Haven't played this game yet, but I guarantee it pales in comparison to BOTW.

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I can guarantee you that it doesn't, and I've played both. How about that? I'm just under 20 hours in DQXI so I'm not that far in, but man. It's much better than BotW so far.

Fun fact: The Legend of Zelda and Dragon Quest came out the same year (1986). Not trying to make a point with that except that I'm happy both series are still going strong after 32 years.

I mean, obviously the story could have been better in BotW but I think it did a good enough job. The DLC added some nice story bits that I almost wish were part of the main package. Currently playing DQ11 and still at the beginning so can't really comment on it yet.

Cryptosporidium said:

I am not the biggest fan of BOTW. Found it had far too many flaws.

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Not really

So you mean replacing the small story bits for a generic JRPG story? Nah, I'm fine with Zelda TBH.

BotW's story is not great, but it serves its purpose of showing some direction to the player.

And not, BotW doesn't try the same as DQ XI, BotW doesn't want to focus the game on the small stories from each region, there's a lot more to the game and the 4 "main quests" are only a fraction of the content. I agree that Nintendo should try something more interesting next time a la Majora's Mask, but not going the DQ XI route.

I think it depends what you're after. I can see that a lot of people here don't mind a weak story if the gameplay and the incidental storytelling is excellent. Personally I feel any RPG worth it's salt should have an engaging story even if it's open world. Witcher 3 is a good example of how 1 doesn't negate the other. So I agree with the OP, but I understand not everyone feels the same way.

If anything, BotW should have had even less of a plot. The memories were nice cutscenes, but a little mystique around the past would have made the plot more intriguing.

BotW story was everything it needed to be.

Cryptosporidium said:

one I think everyone can agree on is its horrid story and its poor structure.

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I'm afraid I cannot agree with this, my good sir/ma'am.

Cryptosporidium said:

I am not the biggest fan of BOTW. Found it had far too many flaws, but one I think everyone can agree on is its horrid story and its poor structure.

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Many players prefer to not have their games bogged down by big narrative arch subplots in every other town. BotW just wasn't for you and Dragon Quest isn't for me.

Cryptosporidium said:

Now, every town in DQ11 (so far, im 30hrs in) has its own substantial mini arc that plays into the larger plot.

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Yep, that's a Dragon Quest game.

Comparing the story of a linear JRPG of more than 60 hours with a openworld Zelda is one of the most absurd things I've seen in this forum.

I think OP missed the entire point of Breath of the Wild.

I played DQ11 when it came out in Japanese, and loved it, but it's a very different thing than BOTW.

Not a huge BOTW fan, but I'm playing DQ11 right now and the story and dialogue are the least compelling parts - very generic setting, laboured dialogue and very one-note characterisation.

It actually made me realise that JRPGs in general haven't really followed the west in making dialogue flow as naturally alongside gameplay as possible.

Playing DQ11 at the same time as Spidey really brought this home to me: Spidey, like many modern action games, rarely has dialogue interrupt gameplay - all the expository stuff in the Shocker boss battle, for example, actually happens while you're fighting him; most of your conversations with Yuri happen while you're swinging around the city; conversations too can break off when action takes over and be resumed afterwards - but DQ11 (and Ni No Kuni II, come to think of it) still have this very distinct silo between gameplay and story.

The result is opening sections that feel very stoppy starty and have gameplay moving along in small bursts between lengthy dialogue scenes that leave me feeling a bit exhausted by the end. I really think this is one area where JRPGs could really learn something from Western design.

unless DQ11 has a Triforce in there, i see no point in this argument XD

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

The price of a decent linear story is freedom. How do you make a great story in a game that can be finished in any order? I think what would have helped though is giving side quests more of a independent story sort of like Majora's mask.

But for the overall story in the game I don't think it could have been done much better given the structure of the game.

It has a beginning, it has an end. That's all they could do.

Dreamboum said:

BOTW has a story and a lot of the elements that links the areas together are brought forth for by its story. Dragon Quest is no stranger to open-world, non-linear stories; still pulls it off much better than BOTW did.

Open world doesn't mean your story goes to die in a bonfire as a necessary sacrifice, far from it.

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Having a story is not really the same as story driven though. Because BotW in no way, is a story drive game. DQ XI is.

Henrik said:

DQXI is a outdated JRPG.

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It is not, you can call it traditional though. It's a great experience and looking at the review/critics consensus one of the best JRPGs this generation.

I don't think it had a poor story at all, in fact, as someone with over 700 hours in the game, I thought the fractured story was amazing and fit in perfectly with Link's story of being asleep for 100 years and then having to rediscover it all in no particular order.

So, unfortunately, we can't agree on this.

Vishmarx said:

i think we can all agree its not exactly a 1:1 comparison but still botw could do a heck lot better to tell its story. To those suggesting that the level of storytelling in zelda has always been this paperthin....well thats clealy untrue.

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But the previous games were much more linear. It's easier to tell a story when the game is linear like a movie.

Open world games it's much more difficult because things can be done in any order.

RunesmithCaryll said:

It actually made me realise that JRPGs in general haven't really followed the west in making dialogue flow as naturally alongside gameplay as possible.

Playing DQ11 at the same time as Spidey really brought this home to me: Spidey, like many modern action games, rarely has dialogue interrupt gameplay - all the expository stuff in the Shocker boss battle, for example, actually happens while you're fighting him; most of your conversations with Yuri happen while you're swinging around the city; conversations too can break off when action takes over and be resumed afterwards - but DQ11 (and Ni No Kuni II, come to think of it) still have this very distinct silo between gameplay and story.

The result is opening sections that feel very stoppy starty and have gameplay moving along in small bursts between lengthy dialogue scenes that leave me feeling a bit exhausted by the end. I really think this is one area where JRPGs could really learn something from Western design.

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Matter of preference I think. I don't really like it when exposition takes places in the middle of the action, because I'm just not listening/focusing on whatever is being said. Destiny 2 does this as well, and as a result I had no idea what was going on and why about 90% of the time. The Arkham series actually did it quite well (in my opinion ofc) by focusing exposition before and after stealth/fight sequences without taking away control from the player most of the time (every now and then you have a walk & talk moment).

As for DQXI, I've really liked the dialogue so far. The voice acting is cheesy at times (yet never grating), but it fits incredibly well with the aesthetic and tone of the game. Some of the best VA casting I've heard in a long, long time. It's also intentionally a throwback game, traditional. So I don't blame it too much for leaning on an older narrative/expository framework. It works for the game.

daxy said:

Matter of preference I think. I don't really like it when exposition takes places in the middle of the action, because I'm just not listening/focusing on whatever is being said. Destiny 2 does this as well, and as a result I had no idea what was going on and why about 90% of the time. The Arkham series actually did it quite well (in my opinion ofc) by focusing exposition before and after stealth/fight sequences without taking away control from the player most of the time (every now and then you have a walk & talk moment).

As for DQXI, I've really liked the dialogue so far. The voice acting is cheesy at times (yet never grating), but it fits incredibly well with the aesthetic and tone of the game. Some of the best VA casting I've heard in a long, long time. It's also intentionally a throwback game, traditional. So I don't blame it too much for leaning on an older narrative/expository framework. It works for the game.

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I think you're right, it does come down to preference, though I'd argue that Destiny owes as much to it's general writing approach as to the implementation. I actually like the way that Dragon Age Inquisition handled it too: game has a fair amount of not-doing-much downtime and they optimised this really well with incidental conversations between the party.

The other approach that you don't see much of in JRPGs is the 'a la carte' dialogue approach. Where you use dialogue trees to either get just what you need to keep moving or ask twenty questions to every random character - basically have as much dialogue as you want. The Witcher and Mass Effect both manage this really well.

I can't even. There's some major contradictions going on in the OP.

Henrik said:

DQXI is a outdated JRPG. BOTW is at least doing some fresh experience you can spend hundreds of hours into.

I'm very doubtful DQXI can recapture the magic DQVIII did on PS2 in the west.

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DQ11 is the best JRPG I've played since Lost Odyssey, easily.

BotW was never meant to have a all trumpets out in your face jrpg style story. It's a called about exploration, in the wake of the massive amount of critisism on the handholding in Skyward Sword. being a game about exploration, they adapted the story to make it subdued and relied more on environmental story telling. Two those games have completely different goals in their story execution.

To the people saying "Zelda games always have bad stories": No. Most Zelda games have great stories, but in BOTW it took a back seat (like, really really far in the back) and that hurt the game.

Strings said:

Miyamoto and Horii are mutual fans of each other. Here's the two of them being interviewed at the same time:

http://shmuplations.com/miyamotohorii/

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A classic style Zelda with a Horii story could be even better than Chrono Trigger. Would be the stuff of legends.

Cryptosporidium said:

I think everyone can agree on is its horrid story and its poor structure.

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No?

1. Zora and gerudo arc are great on BOTW. Goron is lacking on background and the bird was shallow.

They could be better, but they are good enough.

Botw's story was so light and near non existent by design. They wanted a fully open world do anything exploration game where there was no set path or set order to do things. I mean they even made a point out of it repeatedly that you could skip everything and go straight for ganon when you leave the plateau.

They didn't want more of a story, and if they had it would have come at the expense of the fully open world experience where they wanted no limitations on what you could do or where you could go. Meanwhile dragon quest is a story driven game where you're being led, it BETTER have the better story because that's what you're there for. You were not there for the story in botw and if you were, yeah the game probably wasn't for you.

Not to mention this is Nintendo. The story is almost always an afterthought to the gameplay. They tend to decide on a mechanic or idea for the gameplay, flesh it out, and then fill in with something. And I mean yeah that doesn't always work out, and most Zelda games are very light on story to begin with. But in botw's case, they did seem to want as light as story as possible so the focus was on exploration and all.

tulpa said:

I can guarantee you that it doesn't, and I've played both. How about that? I'm just under 20 hours in DQXI so I'm not that far in, but man. It's much better than BotW so far.

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Opinions. BotW is a far superior game. DQ11 has a better story over all but linear RPGs usually do.

Story isn't a main focus in BotW and it souldn't be. not everygame should be built around storytelling.
on the other side, BotW is far superior to any DQ game I've ever played.

PrimeBeef said:

Opinions. BotW is a far superior game. DQ11 has a better story over all but linear RPGs usually do.

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Opinions. BotW ain't all that. DQXI is better so far. I haven't played as much of it as I want, but I can't imagine I'd walk away thinking BotW is better.

They are two different types of games.

Strings said:

Miyamoto and Horii are mutual fans of each other. Here's the two of them being interviewed at the same time:

http://shmuplations.com/miyamotohorii/

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Dude this should happen.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who really enjoyed BotW's story, particularly the memories and Zelda's backstory.

I do agree that the Divine Beast quests could have had a bit more fleshed out (though Gerudo pretty much does this already), and I think the memories should have been tied to quests rather than "Find the spot and click on the glowing thing."

Charamiwa said:

If you want story in BotW, you read through the dialogues, you go to a stable and listen to the myths and legends there, you talk to Kass... Gerudo town has plenty of story, or at least world building, that's unintrusive and well written. Same for Hateno, or even Lurelin Village. That fits the game perfectly.

The more involved story, the one you go through to get to the Beasts, could be better, sure. But the way the game is designed, there could be 50 hours between two of those missions, so you can't exactly design them like a regular linear one. They were absolutely right to focus on world building instead of actual story. Maybe in the next game we'll have both, and it'll work very well, but for now they did what they had to do, with the right priorities.

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This, if i'm gonna compare, story telling in BOTW reminds me Souls way to do so, with more vignette there and there

You've gone and done it now OP. Someone is probably making a "what story driven games can learn from botw" thread at this very moment. We haven't had that one yet I don't think.

Having mini story arcs in an open world game doesn't take away any freedom from the player. If they are self contained they can be done at any point in the story or not at all.

I think their big mistake regarding BotW's story was leaving many cutscenes as flashbacks, rather than using them to make more story events in the present. People just didn't connect well to the flashback structure.

I wouldn't really compare the two, but I do think a game with BOTW's structure would do well to look at how DQ does these distinct little vignettes with a common thread in the background. It is one way to keep a narrative, while allowing chunks of the game to be played in any order.

Man Botw need a story, it's probably the most boring game I ever played last year.

I'm frequently pretty critical of BOTW but story is one area that I was totally fine with. I liked the minimalist approach, I liked the postapocalyptic feeling and piecing together the past. I liked the memories. All of that stuff was great. In fact, I think the game was at its worst in its little arcy parts leading up to each divine beast. That was the game at its absolute worst. I was miserable during those portions.

DQ is great, but not everything has to be the same. I really like when story gets out of the way and just lets me play the game

I would like a Breath of the Wild-style game where it's a huge, open area, but with more towns, and those towns have their own mini stories you solve and go through, rather than the frankly nothing to not here stories of the towns in BOTW.

Heck, i honestly think DQXI's more episodic nature of its towns would serve well for an open world game like BOTW.

Aaronrules380 said:

Zelda has never had particularly great stories. I say this as a huge LoZ fan. It's never been a focus and at best games like Windwaker have had small moments of brilliance, but contrary to how some people like to act, it was never the focus in that series

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Majora's Mask says hi