As it turns out, still run by people who curiously enough care a lot about the feelings of sexist shitheads.
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Two Riot Employees "Leave" Under "Complicated Circumstances" After PAX Session Excluding Men.
- Thread starter Deleted member 5853
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As it turns out, still run by people who curiously enough care a lot about the feelings of sexist shitheads.
Took this stance months ago but I will reiterate. I will continue to ignore any and all things Riot until they prove they have rid their work place of it's toxic sexist infestation.
Yo hey time out to everyone saying "that's just how a company works, whadd'ya gonna do :shrug:"
Everyone knows that. Who are you defending with this statement? We're saying "this sucks and the reasoning is shameful" not "I don't understand how this could happen :("
We understand why it happens, we're saying it's bullshit and bad. "What's best for their profits" and "what's the right thing to do" are not equivalent things, and I will argue hard for the latter because I don't give a fuuuuuuuck about the former. I care not for the justification given by bosses for why they trample their workers, I care that the workers are being trampled.
Everyone knows that. Who are you defending with this statement? We're saying "this sucks and the reasoning is shameful" not "I don't understand how this could happen :("
We understand why it happens, we're saying it's bullshit and bad. "What's best for their profits" and "what's the right thing to do" are not equivalent things, and I will argue hard for the latter because I don't give a fuuuuuuuck about the former. I care not for the justification given by bosses for why they trample their workers, I care that the workers are being trampled.
How is sexist against men, when it starts from a sexism problem agaisnt women? "Guys which suffer because society is sexist against women" is not really...sexism.
Well, is sexism but against women
Because they are professionals representing a company who does not want to create a reputation for insulting it's customers. It's common sense. It's not an eye for an eye.
You can fight for the right cause but do it in an ineffective or inappropriate manner, and thats what it seems like he did.
You didn't respond because of a lack of critical thinking and a huge ego but sure dude. If I wasn't worth your time it is a little strange you took time typing something. I mean you are literally making this sound like I'm an advocate for sexism, yet there is nothing I've said you could point to that is sexist. You just heard an opinion slightly out of your own (it is appropriate to fire an employee for social media rants that can offend a sub-sect of a business's market audience during a sensitive time) and closed your ears like a Trump supporter
have fun being outraged though lol, glad we can both agree this conversation doesn't need to continue
Yes, even if I was enacting policies to prevent further insider trading I would not want an employee to openly insult everyone that might have slightly shadier alignments and who in a completely unrelated sense could still do business with my company. Idk man, it is about being diplomatic not correct
Genuine question, and please don't take this as me being sexist - Is it really not possible that certain sexes excel in certain areas of life due to genetics, hormones etc (in the same way you do with certain ethnicities)? I'm not fully aware of the science, mind, but it seems believable. My interpretation of this would be that the actual sexism comes in where society then artificially forces the women into those positions.
If men are naturally better than women at some things and vice versa, I think it's okay to acknowledge it. It doesn't really mean anything but simply stating that the differences exist to me isn't the issue. The problem arises when you start using those natural abilities to marginalise a group, even in areas where there likely isn't any difference between men and women. As an example, statistically in my country girls have higher average grades than boys, yet there's a severe lack of women in professions like engineering. Why? A sexist education system that fails to acknowledge and capitalise on the fact that women are just as intellectual as men.
I'm kind of going on a tangent now, but it's a really interesting discussion. Again I could be completely off the mark and I'm not in anyway saying that definitively men and women are naturally better at certain things. Just trying to pick apart that notion and make sense of it relative to how sex/gender differences are used as a tool of oppression.
torre_avenue One of them was explicitly fired: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/7/17827796/riot-games-employee-depart-women-only-pax-west-event
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User Warned: Threadwhining
Kinda OT, but this isn't the first time I've seen someone misspell Riot as "Rito." Is it some sort of meme I'm not aware of?
It's not defending its just reality. Again random people on the internet can be as critical as they want... employees have a higher standard. What the employees did is not right full stop. What the people attacking minorities in gaming do is not right.
The difference is companies can't fire customers because to them the only goal they have is profit.
He could have called them out in a less aggressive way easily, but he didn't. Just because he was right in calling them out doesn't mean he can tell his company to go fuck itself and go on to add fire to this.
The ineffective thing is to say nothing, which isn't what he did. Somebody shouldn't be fired for calling people that mock and insult women or non-binary people assholes/man babies because that's exactly what they are, those people shouldn't be coddled because why would you want to associate yourselves with them.
And the reason it belongs there is?
I don't know if they ARE Jewish, but "Klein" and "Lehman(n)" are primarily German Surnames. And Daniel Klein seems to be from Germany, he was Comunity representative for the German community.
Progress and action isn't always a straight line or direct. That's fighting as if the rules are fair when you know for a fact they are not.
"... but I'm going to assume and generalize all the same."
I will never understand these kinds of posts.
This is the new way of saying "keep politics (by which I mean anything related to women and minorities) out of my videogames", isn't it?
Not surprising. Many outlets (including Kotaku) also downplayed or flat out left out what got Jessica Price fired from ArenaNet also. It's disingenuous.I have been watching this drama on Reddit for quite some time and I kind of agree with this comment:
"I like how the article downplays DZK's hostility and completely ignores how he told the male playerbase to kill themselves. The bias is palpable."
Idk that is a very slippery slope. As a man who had to work harder in my field then women it was really a little discouraging at the start working in spas to keep hearing over and over again that women are just more nurturing and have a calmer touch from people who literally never have had a male massage therapist or who have had just a few (and the massage those men gave might've been formed from expectations of us guys having "firmer hands" or whatever nonsense). I'm sure women have to hear something similar in plenty of fields and I am sure it is equally not true in most of those fields
It is good to keep an open mind and just look at the facts of the person applying and what about that person is good for said job. Then you don't have to worry. It really doesn't matter if there is a general trend or not, none of us have such a great grasp on the big picture that we can so matter of factly say women are better than this and men are better than this naturally. We wouldn't even know how to start deciding if it was natural or not. Yes there are very likely some things women and men are a little more inclined to (obvious examples being physical like women in gymnastics and men in weight lifting)because yeah there are natural differences between the two sexes of course, but there are outliers and it is dangerous to project importance in places where it isn't relevant (in my opinion, most places).
Great post. I'm tired of the people who come in here talking about "bad PR" or the company's bottom line as if any of that shit actually matters.
For me it sounds like a problem in american business culture. (i know that riot is technically not us)
I'm from Germany and i worked for one of the biggest banking institutions in the country. For the last 10~ years we have a rising problem with people who are right winged and it shows in regards to Muslims. Especially elderly people are aggressively voicing their displeasure about Muslims working in service related jobs.
For my team and myself it was not even once a problem to openly confront these customers to either shut up or to seek the service of another institution that is willing to tolerate their behavior.
And no one had to be lectured about customer service and what not. Because first of all we protect our employees and second and as important, we value our Muslim customers equally and no customer would believe us if we would simply tolerate such behavior.
It is stupid to say that it is an example of bad customer service or relationship to confront bad customers or to tell them that they are not welcome especially if you are indirectly making a statement to other customers with your actions. Therefore I think that this whole "you never speak up or against a customer policy that is getting advocated in this case is an example of bad business policies.
I'm from Germany and i worked for one of the biggest banking institutions in the country. For the last 10~ years we have a rising problem with people who are right winged and it shows in regards to Muslims. Especially elderly people are aggressively voicing their displeasure about Muslims working in service related jobs.
For my team and myself it was not even once a problem to openly confront these customers to either shut up or to seek the service of another institution that is willing to tolerate their behavior.
And no one had to be lectured about customer service and what not. Because first of all we protect our employees and second and as important, we value our Muslim customers equally and no customer would believe us if we would simply tolerate such behavior.
It is stupid to say that it is an example of bad customer service or relationship to confront bad customers or to tell them that they are not welcome especially if you are indirectly making a statement to other customers with your actions. Therefore I think that this whole "you never speak up or against a customer policy that is getting advocated in this case is an example of bad business policies.
I'm not sure they are either. I do know at least a couple people with historically Jewish names that aren't Jewish. Hell, I LOOK Jewish but I'm not. But I guess I'm saying if they were Jewish... it makes sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_(surname)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehman_family
The thing is, that the current status quo of gender inequality, moreso the disparity between men in positions of power and status vs the women in positions of power and status, isn't rooted on "genetics or hormones" (seriously, whatever that is...). The situation women are in, are way before these concepts even existed and are born just of pure systematic opression for thousands of years as of now. Most of the jobs are usually attributed to being more fit to women is born from "benevolent sexism", since women are stereotyped as affectionate, delicate, and sensitive, which in turn makes for that preconceived view of seeing women as delicate individuals that needs to be protected.
In other words, you really think that women are better nurses by nature or that is the preconceived notion we gave as society to women. The same as the "bravado men" image we formed for men, in which they can't show affection, must be strong and not show their feelings. Or you really think women can't be a CEO of major companies or other positions of power? That comes down to genetics?
I don't think so.
Yep! She is exceptional and I am (as well as the lot of us) are insanely fortunate to have her here. Absolutely none of the things I'm disappointed in have anything to do with her - the opposite in fact. Soha is the best.
Fukken same.
Having come from & been exposed to a lot of gaming companies where that's not as easy of an decision as it actually should be - the reason I came to Riot 3 years ago was this very principle. It's exceptionally rare to work somewhere where you can take actions in that mindset. There's never been a case during my career at Riot where I personally witnessed the right thing being sacrificed for revenue, and more times than I can count on both hands where profitability was not even considered in doing some exceptionally expensive things that a majority of players will never know about. But as a player, I care far more about the actions I can witness, than the claims I'm hearing, and that's the standard I as an individual expect others to hold me accountable to.
Gotta go back to actual work, but wanted to say I'm very grateful for all of y'alls feedback. Resetera rules, and in my personal opinion it fucking blows that we have let so many of y'all, among other communities, down.
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If people are trying to make this some big crime while sweeping the regular harassment, doxxing, and death threats that Klein and others must have been suffering through for years because of their beliefs, you're, at best, a hypocrite.I have been watching this drama on Reddit for quite some time and I kind of agree with this comment:
"I like how the article downplays DZK's hostility and completely ignores how he told the male playerbase to kill themselves. The bias is palpable."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I see:
r/LoL: Fucking SJWs need to die, women and feminism are ruining mah games, lol lets swat some of these idiots.
*one dev retweets a jokey tweet about said manbabies*
r/LoL: WOW HE TOLD US GUYS TO KILL OURSELVES WHY WOULD YOU MAKE DEATH THREATS YOU SICKO.
Then maybe game companies should make more of an effort rather than ignoring the issues. It's ridiculous that this sort of behaviour from the gaming community is still tolerated by a number game companies.
Then why does this thread belong there?
Agreed, but we know this isn't the case, at least as far as we can tell with Riot. Just saying how it should be isn't going to make it happen. So what now? Us bitching on this forum isn't going to make it happen, especially if we're not current customers. What could have made a difference is these two still being employed at Riot if they had known when to strike.
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I'm not sure why people think that suddenly because social media is so popular that you can go around posting stuff about your employer to their customers that they don't want you to. I would get fired the same way from my non-gaming job if I posted something on behalf of my company that I was not authorized to do.
That being said, what he said wasn't wrong, but regardless of what the topic and what the message, I support and expect firings like this 100% of the time. Companies spend huge amounts of money on PR. Let PR be PR, and you stick to doing your job.
EDIT: Some of his tweets were a little more aggressive than I originally thought - not a surprising outcome.
That being said, what he said wasn't wrong, but regardless of what the topic and what the message, I support and expect firings like this 100% of the time. Companies spend huge amounts of money on PR. Let PR be PR, and you stick to doing your job.
EDIT: Some of his tweets were a little more aggressive than I originally thought - not a surprising outcome.
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Oh, that does make this a bit different from the arenanet firing.
hmm Yeah I get they are passionate about the topic but the company definitely followed procedure because most of these companies do have policies regarding social media that they definitely agreed to. Once you are hired you have to sit through all these online tests and videos that talk to you about this and other policies they have. They really hammer it down too so im sure they knew there was a definite possibility of being reprimanded. The company is protected even if there was an underlying reason for what they were let go for.
Describing the people that were engaging the now ex-Riot employees on Twitter as folk with "slighly shadier alignment" is real disingenuous, dude.
Why do I need to understand anything? I think they are pieces of shit for prioritizing their business over social issues and I am perfectly within my rights to hold that opinion. I don't give a shit about what they want, I hate what they are doing. I think their sexist trash customers should be feeling extremely unwelcome in their games.
What are you even talking about? I'm yelling to Riot. I don't give a single shit about sexist worthless morons, their opinions or whether or not they are hearing what I'm saying. I have no interest in teaching them anything; I just want them to fuck off and stay far the fuck away from my vicinity both irl and on the internet. If they want to be bigoted, that's their problem. They can do it wherever they want as long as neither I nor anyone I know is there to hear it. I don't want to appeal to them, I want them to fuck off permanently from our industry. Anyone making bigots feel unsafe and unwelcome is doing great work. They need to learn that hate goes both ways and I have zero interest in giving them a monopoly on it any more.
Again, what is there to understand? I do understand them. They hate women, they love their own privilege and they will do everything in their power to stop that from changing. Please explain to me what part of their viewpoint you want me to understand? I understand, I just don't care because their opinions and ideas are utterly useless to everyone with anything relevant to contribute to society. Again, what nuance is that supposed to be? I can't call Riot's leadership pieces of shit for being pieces of shit? Of course I can. Fuck them and fuck all of their supporters. Gaming companies receive zero quarter or empathy for "just doing their job". I don't care about their job nor do I care about their shitty (imo) game – I care about women being welcome in this industry even if (especially at this point) it comes at the expense of worthless gatekeeping men. That is much more important than anything Riot has or will ever do.
Fuck this softball trash sentiment.
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Publicly traded companies have a legal obligation to do what is best for the company - not everyone is just evil.
If their company isn't willing to change then they're never going to get a good time to strike, there's only so long that somebody can sit on their hands in the face of something they're very much against. And while saying we dislike this practice on a forum isn't going to spur Riot to change it's better than sitting here and acting like we're okay with it or that "I guess that's just how it goes".
I agree with what he said. But he probably shouldn't have said it on an official account. If we're going to accept that people can be fired for tweeting unprofessionally, which we seem to have accepted societally, then we're going to have to accept that people in our ideological camp will also get fired for overly antagonistic tweets. I think it's a great paradox in job hunts nowadays--everyone wants to know your Twitter handle, but, unless you're PR or community outreach, the only function it seems to have is as a liability.
Again it goes back to changing the culture at the company, something these two could have contributed to over time. Saying that's nothing is downplaying their contribution. They weren't doing nothing being at the company, they were promoting these ideas within it. If they can have enough like minded people internally pushing these ideas that's when change can happen.
I have been watching this drama on Reddit for quite some time and I kind of agree with this comment:
"I like how the article downplays DZK's hostility and completely ignores how he told the male playerbase to kill themselves. The bias is palpable."
Oh no, new stories have biases? That would imply that they are being made by human beings! Oh dear.
I don't care. I hate them for it, I hate their legal obligations and I hate their shareholders unless they take a stance against sexism. Full stop. Who ever said they were evil? I'm just saying they are useless scum. I don't care about making a moral judgement about them, that's not my problem to be honest. Their actions are.
What's up with this defeatist attitude? Microsoft only cared about their bottom line with their DRM push. Oops people fucking hated them for it and they had to reroute. Stop trying to disarm people's reactions, it's completely useless, detrimental and ultimately harmful. We KNOW they are a corporation and that they only care about money. So fucking what? We can still call them out for it, boycott their products and tell them to fuck off. What's your beef with that anyway? Asserting yourself as some sort of rational paragon who is clearly smarter and more level-headed than anyone angry with them? Hell no. If you aren't angry about sexism in the games industry at this point they you don't get to claim any form of rational stance in the matter. There's nothing smart about being on the sidelines and asking people to chill when this sort of shit continually goes on. You're not helping.
There's a very real chance those people agree with the bad faith arguments, unfortunately.
I'm out after this but I totally agree that you can think what you want. Also agree that the topic in question is not debatable when it comes to inclusion. I however cannot agree that the employees should not have faced repercussions or that this is the best way to handle this situation. I'm sorry again but employees cannot attack customers no matter how shitty they are.
There are ways to go about change and ways to not. And for too long 'gaming' (All sections) have gone about it the wrong way.
As I said not replying further but I really hope some people take this on board.
Also I respect how strongly some of you feel about this issue.