As has been mentioned before, there is no equivalent to MGSV without Quiet.
Also this post:
If someone really only enjoys fighting games and JRPGs, they're hardly going to care that Ubisoft and Naughty Dog have okay representation.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
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Also this post:
I really don't care for sexual fan service myself being that the vast majority of it is utilized just to sexualize female characters and pander to the male demographic exclusively while the male characters remain dressed in normal or stylish attire without any of these issues. It's extremely rare when I see it actually being utilized for a character's personality in a way that benefits the storytelling.
I also don't really care for it when I'm enjoying a show or game then outta nowhere pantie shots, or zoom in to breasts, etc. It feels unnecessary.
To be 100% honest... Not really.
But that's what i mean when i ask about how unusual i find this process. Maybe my brain is weird but i would bet a lot of money that at least male brains usually work like mine. Anecdotal evidence is not representative but i'm sure every guy i know works like this and that's what i thought science concluded for now. I always thought it works like sexual attraction. Nobody thinks about what they find attractive, they just do. I think that's the instinctive part of your brain taking control. Therefore i find it interesting that she can control it like that (brain telling her instinct that a bikini is "objectification n shit"). I can't tell my brain what i'm attracted to.
Cindy or Quiet are not my cup of tea truth be told. But i understand what you're asking and still my answer is no.
With Cindy/Quiet (anything my instinct isn't immediatly attracted to) it goes something like this:
1. Seeing something my logic knows is attractive (but it's not something that my instinct finds attractive)
2. Instinct tells me "i don't care"
3. ...
4. ...
5. ...
6. ...
7. Logic butting in: "God this is dumb... I know what they're trying to do here but do they have to be so "in your face" with it?"
8. "Just ignore it. The rest of the game has to be better."
I don't know if this whole "instinct" part works outside the male brain but there're other examples of it. Ever heard of the japanese word "kenjataimu"? It is the "period after orgasm when a man is free from sexual desire and can think clearly". I don't want to go to far off-topic but i really think that a smaler version of this isn't active 99.9% of the day in a male brain. Think of it as a delay of a few microseconds. In this timespan the male brain can't react with logic and runs only on instinct. Same as other unconcious stuff like "breathing, fight or flee, etc.".
I don't want to see those designs (Cindy/Quiet) in Games where they make no sense. If it makes sense in the game it's ok with me. And with the gigantic neverending supply the internet is full of i don't understand why anyone would buy/want a game like Metal Gear Solid for their sexual needs.
I understand why men like what they see but their logic should be right behind that first urge to tell them how dumb it actually is. No excuses, you can like it but you can't stand there and tell anybody that you don't understand what the fuss is about.
these look more like sexualised male design catered towards gay men, in 2017 they all would have chest hair though. I say this a gay man.You know, male characters sexualized from a women viewpoint would be something like this
I don't know if everybody here is ok playing with characters like these...
User warned: trolling and/or failure to read OP and follow moderator instructions
Look, I'm basically all about developer freedom, and the (paying) market dictates what gets made. Gaming is a for-profit, entertainment medium. Its not a social service. For the most part, things get made because there is an audience that wants and is willing to pay for a certain type of product
Sorry guys, but I'm against telling any dev to not make that "fanservicey" game that's targeted towards a certain male audience because honestly, why should they be denied the product they like and would want to purchase? I'm sorry, but I don't get the "outrage" all the time, and all the calls for this to banned/changed/censored, etc.
If you don't like the looks of a certain game, don't buy it. If enough people agree with you, the game will fail commercially and I promise no more games will be made like that. Yes, its as simple as that. Of course, there is also the chance that enough people will buy the game and make it a success. No, it didn't succeed because the devs "inflicted" the game on us, and the ignorant masses bought it, but because the game found an audience that supported the game because of what it was trying to do. You should accept that someone made a game for an audience that isn't necessarily yourself. Sorry, it happens.
But, you say, females make up half the audience and there is not enough female centric games?- then ladies (or guys who feel strongly that our fellow sisters aren't getting a fair shake) get computer science degrees, learn programming, gets jobs at devs and change their demographics and overall culture, and ultimately work on getting more of what you want made, or make your own indie lablel and make the game that suits your own fancy. If it appeals, then people will buy it. If it doesn't then they won't.
But honestly, standing around banging a drum against certain aspects of games you disagree and think shouldn't be made is pointless, and remember there always is another opinion. Spend time with the things you like, skip/avoid the things you don't. Its the key to happy gaming (and a happy life in general).
Sorry guys, but I'm against telling any dev to not make that "fanservicey" game that's targeted towards a certain male audience because honestly, why should they be denied the product they like and would want to purchase? I'm sorry, but I don't get the "outrage" all the time, and all the calls for this to banned/changed/censored, etc.
If you don't like the looks of a certain game, don't buy it. If enough people agree with you, the game will fail commercially and I promise no more games will be made like that. Yes, its as simple as that. Of course, there is also the chance that enough people will buy the game and make it a success. No, it didn't succeed because the devs "inflicted" the game on us, and the ignorant masses bought it, but because the game found an audience that supported the game because of what it was trying to do. You should accept that someone made a game for an audience that isn't necessarily yourself. Sorry, it happens.
But, you say, females make up half the audience and there is not enough female centric games?- then ladies (or guys who feel strongly that our fellow sisters aren't getting a fair shake) get computer science degrees, learn programming, gets jobs at devs and change their demographics and overall culture, and ultimately work on getting more of what you want made, or make your own indie lablel and make the game that suits your own fancy. If it appeals, then people will buy it. If it doesn't then they won't.
But honestly, standing around banging a drum against certain aspects of games you disagree and think shouldn't be made is pointless, and remember there always is another opinion. Spend time with the things you like, skip/avoid the things you don't. Its the key to happy gaming (and a happy life in general).
You should at least read the entire OP before shitposting.
When i look at those artworks as sex it mostly is how the image is one of idealised hypermasculinity without scruff that makes me feel like it is more catered to gay man. The defined bodies (again, lately hair is being more accepted in the gay sex scene i feel), focus on the package (size queens), the poses, Gambit's big ass (something i feel never seems to be discussed heterosexual men and women about a man's ass) and the very pronounced V-lines which in general always make bells go off in my head. Those four fan arts would probably have been very popular gay porn stars if they where real human beings. It feels ridiculous on my part to write all this down lmao.
this just reads as someone that is tone deaf
Such a good OP, but this stood out to me the most.
This seems to reverberate to all corners of 2017.
Woah, you just solved women in STEM! I can't believe no one ever thought to yell at them in a passive aggressive tone on a forum before.
I'd love to take this opportunity to just vent a couple of thoughts I have, if you don't mind.
First of all, I'll come very clean. I'm a 33yo cis white male, so I'm basically the demographic for, what, 99% of games? I absolutely love sexy female characters in games and I've sunk more hours than I'd care to admit on DoA Xtreme 3.I enjoyed Quiet as a character, I didn't mind that she was half naked, I laughed hard at Kojima's explanation that was supposed to make people feel bad for wanting to dress her.
Having said that, I've read quite a few posts on this thread and I can understand where you're coming from. I can't say I fully understand because a game has never made me unconfortable with the portrayal of male characters, but it's not very hard to place myself in your position to see that it's pretty weird that a lvl 100 female armor is a friggin' bikini and a lvl 100 male armor is a battle tank. I also adhere to the idea that devs should really consider that my demographic, while most likely predominant, is by no means so dominant that they can ignore the incredibly large amount of female gamers out there. And when I say "consider female gamers" I don't necesarily mean "cover all your female characters in seven layers of clothing".
Taking FFXV as an example, I can't say I mind the way Cindy's dressed. I CAN say that it made absolutely no sense whatsoever and that there's more ways to being "sexy" than showing skin. I also wouldn't have minded a single bit if Gladio was made the female fantasy of the group and focused more on his body and sexualised him more. I mean he's already huge and has no concept of "shirt", so why not go all the way? They certainly did with Cindy. I must mention that I didn't quite understand why Cindy was considered overly sexualised and Gladio wasn't until I read a few of the comments made here. It's been an interesting read, this thread.
Going on a second example: the Dead or Alive series. I've always found it to be better at this "sexualisation" thing than many games. I know, I know, hear me out. The female-to-male fighter ratio is obviously skewed. But the male fighters are treated the same was as the female fighters. Meaning they do get sexy outfits, they do get cameras around their crotches and they're all as over the top as their female counterparts. In that sense (and probably only in that sense), DoA is ahead of the curve.
About male characters being ripped and that being a female fantasy and not a male fantasy, I think it's probably a bit of both? Depending on the character? I mean I know Kratos is supposed to be aimed squarely at male power fantasies but damn if my GF doesn't swoon whenever I mention him. That new voice of his isn't helping, either. And what about Dante? He's lean, muscular, cocky, likes to show skin and is what I'd think women would want on a female fantasy character. I really don't think XV's characters were though with males in mind, because damn if they don't look like a boy band with weapons. After playing the game I totally love them and their dynamic, but going in I was not remotely sold on their designs. I'd love to hear examples of well made characters that cater to female fantasies.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that I've never not bought a game because it didn't feature half-naked women. I did buy a game because it featured half-named women, though (the DoA Xtreme 3 mentioned before, Huniepop), but those are two completely different things. I didn't see Uncharted 4 and go "I refuse to buy this until DLC Bunny Suit Elena is a thing". I didn't see Horizon and think "this looks fun but Aloy should be way more naked". I bought Nier: Automata without knowing about 2B's lovingly rendered bottoms, and I did not mind that one bit because she's still a strong character, but I wouldn't mind if the butt wasn't there if it meant that it'd make more people play that masterpiece. If a single woman didn't play Nier: Automata because she felt unconfortable because of 2B's sexualisation, then it wasn't worth it.
And very lastly,
First of all, I'll come very clean. I'm a 33yo cis white male, so I'm basically the demographic for, what, 99% of games? I absolutely love sexy female characters in games and I've sunk more hours than I'd care to admit on DoA Xtreme 3.I enjoyed Quiet as a character, I didn't mind that she was half naked, I laughed hard at Kojima's explanation that was supposed to make people feel bad for wanting to dress her.
Having said that, I've read quite a few posts on this thread and I can understand where you're coming from. I can't say I fully understand because a game has never made me unconfortable with the portrayal of male characters, but it's not very hard to place myself in your position to see that it's pretty weird that a lvl 100 female armor is a friggin' bikini and a lvl 100 male armor is a battle tank. I also adhere to the idea that devs should really consider that my demographic, while most likely predominant, is by no means so dominant that they can ignore the incredibly large amount of female gamers out there. And when I say "consider female gamers" I don't necesarily mean "cover all your female characters in seven layers of clothing".
Taking FFXV as an example, I can't say I mind the way Cindy's dressed. I CAN say that it made absolutely no sense whatsoever and that there's more ways to being "sexy" than showing skin. I also wouldn't have minded a single bit if Gladio was made the female fantasy of the group and focused more on his body and sexualised him more. I mean he's already huge and has no concept of "shirt", so why not go all the way? They certainly did with Cindy. I must mention that I didn't quite understand why Cindy was considered overly sexualised and Gladio wasn't until I read a few of the comments made here. It's been an interesting read, this thread.
Going on a second example: the Dead or Alive series. I've always found it to be better at this "sexualisation" thing than many games. I know, I know, hear me out. The female-to-male fighter ratio is obviously skewed. But the male fighters are treated the same was as the female fighters. Meaning they do get sexy outfits, they do get cameras around their crotches and they're all as over the top as their female counterparts. In that sense (and probably only in that sense), DoA is ahead of the curve.
About male characters being ripped and that being a female fantasy and not a male fantasy, I think it's probably a bit of both? Depending on the character? I mean I know Kratos is supposed to be aimed squarely at male power fantasies but damn if my GF doesn't swoon whenever I mention him. That new voice of his isn't helping, either. And what about Dante? He's lean, muscular, cocky, likes to show skin and is what I'd think women would want on a female fantasy character. I really don't think XV's characters were though with males in mind, because damn if they don't look like a boy band with weapons. After playing the game I totally love them and their dynamic, but going in I was not remotely sold on their designs. I'd love to hear examples of well made characters that cater to female fantasies.
Lastly, I'd like to point out that I've never not bought a game because it didn't feature half-naked women. I did buy a game because it featured half-named women, though (the DoA Xtreme 3 mentioned before, Huniepop), but those are two completely different things. I didn't see Uncharted 4 and go "I refuse to buy this until DLC Bunny Suit Elena is a thing". I didn't see Horizon and think "this looks fun but Aloy should be way more naked". I bought Nier: Automata without knowing about 2B's lovingly rendered bottoms, and I did not mind that one bit because she's still a strong character, but I wouldn't mind if the butt wasn't there if it meant that it'd make more people play that masterpiece. If a single woman didn't play Nier: Automata because she felt unconfortable because of 2B's sexualisation, then it wasn't worth it.
And very lastly,
why do I want a Bunny Suit Sully so bad right now?!
To be honest, this plays more into how media is marketed to various audiences and why true objectification of the male body for the female audience so is hard to define. Note that the following is more talking in the broad sense of marketing and not in the sense that this is somehow a hard-wired brain thing. But rather a look at how marketing affects our current understanding of terms. Furthermore, this will also be more focused on Japanese media than American media since I consume more Japanese media (and Korean media...I really need to stop watching Live Action Dramas).
When comparing stories aimed towards men vs women, an interesting look as how both do romances. For men, when they do romances, tend to have romances being directed at the main character. This is why harems tend to be so common as it gives us an excuse of having the hero having to decide between multiple women who all have an interest in him and therefore the audience. And honestly, I think this is one of the few areas where romancing in Japanese media has improved somewhat by reducing this compared to the earlier decades as, while I did enjoy these shows, these tended to get creepy, have unrealistic realities of how relationships work even in a polyamorous one, and usually ended up with an indecisive "marry them all" ending. Still remember the one where everyone decides to be a guy's mother than in the last episodes all deciding to become his wife because that's not freudian at all (though honestly that show is surprisingly good even if I forgotten the name). Male centered manga also tends to focus on objectification and male gaze far more than female centered media which the main reason this thread exists. This is also, to give another context, a possible reason why "It's Raining Men" by The Weather Girls grew in popularity with gay men as the song did not focus solely on a man but rather the praise of the male form in a sexual way (note that this doesn't come from me but from articles about this song, I'll pull them up if anyone wants to read them)
Compare this to how women's media is done. Romances aimed at them are far more focused on complicated love triangles than rather having everyone love a single protagonist. A > B <> C > D < A and as so. While all characters are usually very attractive, the focus if far more on the complicated relationships between characters and how this effects the story. While objectification of the male form certainly exists to a degree in these forms of media (why yes male love interest, how interesting that I also seem to meet you with your shirt off), they tend not to be the main focus or that prevalent in comparison to the growing ecchi featured in male focused media. This is why those pictured can be seen as being catered towards gay men, because the focus seems to be on the body rather than on the character. Notice the eyes and how the poses seem more suggestive rather than warm, a common trope seen in women's media. There is more detail on the pecs and asscrack than the face.
Now, of course, as mentioned, this does not mean that women are wired the way described in the 3rd paragraph and men are wired the way described in 2nd, but rather how these things play out in media designed for a certain audience. And yes, you can have love triangles in men's media and harems in woman's media (the Otome genre exists for a reason) but these tend to be either smaller bases or less liked parts in the whole story. Now hopefully that made some sense because I am not a good writer.
It hasn't. Games still have a long ways to go, regarding the treatment of women. Objectification or otherwise.
I agree that we've come a long way as an industry, but just because some games make a point to include strong, independent, non-sexualized characters doesn't excuse the ones that do. Because, at the end of the day, the problem still exists, no? Like it doesn't magically disappear because other developers provide positive representation.
Let's leave our sexist ass society decide if sexist elements remain prominent in games or not, you guys! It's only fair! And if you don't like it then ladies, I invite you to get to work and perhaps make it big in extremely male centric fields and change the world?
Well, everyone has their natural inclinations but that's just one aspect of a person. A lot can go in your mind at once.
I think the intensity of these things varies from person to person based on my experience with people but that's only my perception.
But anyway, as I think you allude to at the end, one of the overarching themes of this thread is that people of varying dispositions can be better and so can the industry.
I mean, the pictures definitely feature hypersexualized men, but that's not really what I'm into. He's not sexualized, but when I try to think of video game characters that are attractive to me, the first character that comes to mind is Dojima from Persona 4.
While DoA has always sexualized its female characters, I would also say that modern DoA has cranked up the objectification. Honoka and Marie Rose both debuted in DoA 5 (Marie Rose first appeared in the arcade version), and I think they are definitely the worst that the series has to offer.
When I was younger and played DoA 2 Hardcore like crazy, I felt like I had a lot of control over my experience. I was able to turn the jiggle physics down, or even off entirely. I could put them in outfits like this:
The emphasis on costume DLC has definitely made it harder to be a fighting game fan. Lots of games won't even give you an option to unlock a less-sexualized alt costume anymore. If I want to cover Cammy's butt in StreetFighter 4 or 5, I have to buy DLC. If I play online, I am going to play against people that are using the skimpiest costume DLC available. It's super frustrating. My love for fighting games has really diminished over the years. I would love to have some real options in the genre again.
Yup. Most of my favorite genres are overwhelmed with this stuff. When it comes to genres I play, I would say that only adventure games have a good balance.
I do like adventure games a lot, and I would say the balance there is fine. It's never hard for me to find something to play.
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Yeah, like, there is still discussion in books, tv, comics, and film about objectification. And even if some good things happen in the field of the representation of women like the shrinking sexualization of female characters in comics compared to the early 2000's (like people, go back and read some of the stuff and try not to cringe at the obvious pandering to horny men) yet that doesn't excuse the actions of the Spider-Woman cover guy or Red Hood and the Outlaws #1's bastardization of Starfire from someone defined by intense emotion (which includes love) and turning her into a sex-doll with the memory of a goldfish (no that is not a joke, in that comic Red Hood basically says that Starfire doesn't remember people after a few days so go try sleeping with her. Even if this was retconned so fast, this still doesn't excuse the fact that this somehow made it through the planning phase let alone actually being bloody written!). Video games should not get a pass, especially since the medium is still so young compared to other forms of entertainment. They especially should not try and market only to a specific audience either because comics tried to do this and this ended in a Comics crash that, to this day, still hasn't fully recovered despite comic characters being blockbusters in every other medium.
Agree with what you said about men complaining whenever this topic is brought up, happens too often. Although I'm curious, what would be a lady idealised character design?
I haven't played the game yet so I'm not really familiar with his personality - and not everyone would agree with me anyway - but I'll say this: DmC Dante's design totally caters to female fantasies. He has that bad boy heartthrob look and his entire introduction sequence has him stark naked with even some glimpses of butt.
Also, I appreciate you venting your thoughts. Just an acknowledgement can mean much.
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(Maybe I made a huge mistake stepping into this thread. I'm a bit afraid. Please don't tear me apart! I don't mean any harm, and I don't want to troll.)
That is actually one of the key problems I – as a stupid vanilla white heterosexual male – have with this discussion: I still don't really get what the female audience would consider great, or even not great, just interesting (in a "turn on" way), _sexualised_ male characters, not just attractive, cute dudes, but _sexualised_ ones. All the examples that were provided are either met with "Doh, that's just a power fantasy for stupid males!", or "Doh, that's just sexualised buff pinups for the gay audience!", or even (the most unfair one imo) "Doh, that's not sexualised at all you dummy!".
So, is there just not such a thing?
If that's the case, I find part of the discussion in this thread a little bit dishonest. There is a distinct subset of men/boys that like to look at sexy female characters in games showing skin (and I don't include myself here). That's why we have so many games doing that. If there is no such thing on the female side, how can you (women) demand "more equality" on the sexualisation front?
That is actually one of the key problems I – as a stupid vanilla white heterosexual male – have with this discussion: I still don't really get what the female audience would consider great, or even not great, just interesting (in a "turn on" way), _sexualised_ male characters, not just attractive, cute dudes, but _sexualised_ ones. All the examples that were provided are either met with "Doh, that's just a power fantasy for stupid males!", or "Doh, that's just sexualised buff pinups for the gay audience!", or even (the most unfair one imo) "Doh, that's not sexualised at all you dummy!".
So, is there just not such a thing?
If that's the case, I find part of the discussion in this thread a little bit dishonest. There is a distinct subset of men/boys that like to look at sexy female characters in games showing skin (and I don't include myself here). That's why we have so many games doing that. If there is no such thing on the female side, how can you (women) demand "more equality" on the sexualisation front?
You know, male characters sexualized from a women viewpoint would be something like this
I don't know if everybody here is ok playing with characters like these...
The tits n ass pose on Gambit is amazing, I don' know if it's parodic or not.
Yeah, that's normal. The fact that you know they're pulling your levers doesn't belie the fact that those levers still work. Much like you can hate a movie for emotionally manipulating you while still being unable to prevent being manipulated (or jumping at cheap scares you know are coming; I'm looking at you, "it was just a cat" jump scare). Of course, this means that the character in question has to actually be appealing to you, whereas in many cases, blatant attempts at objectifcation will have the opposite effect simply because of the unappealing exaggeration (classic Ivy in Soul Calibur was attractive; modern Ivy is straight up gross to me).
The industry is also losing me simply because as I grow older, I'm attracted to older women in turn; my latest crush is Robin Wright, even though she's 11 years my senior. Most female characters I'm supposed to find attractive look like kids to me, and I don't even mean Japanese's obsession with actual kids, but characters like Cindy or Quiet.
As a completely ignorant straight male, what's the deal with chest hair? I've found people (both gays and hetero women) who find it gross, and people who find it gross when it's not there. Is it just a preference thing? Is it a fashion thing (asking because of your 2017 comment)?
No, I definitely think it exists! I just don't think there is a lot of it in video games. It's not something I'm into personally, but I think the Fire Emblem swimsuit DLC feels more like it was designed to cater to women:
The guys are drawn to look hot, but there's also some cuteness there. Gaius has novelty trunks and his candy; Xander has his goofy inflatable. They feel a little softer and a little more vulnerable.
In terms of stuff that appeals to me personally, I feel like I am more likely to find it in television than video games. The Leftovers, which is one of my favorite TV shows of all time, had a lot of male nudity. The core appeal of the show was the story and characters, but there are still plenty of hot Justin Theroux scenes.
Edit: While I would love to play a game that's on par with The Leftovers, I'm not looking for more male sexualization either. I would prefer less out-of-place fanservice in general.
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We don't want equally sexy games that feature shirtless men; that's not the point (maybe some do, but it doesn't seem like they're here in the thread, at least from my perspective). The point is, we want female characters to be portrayed and designed with the same level of respect and dignity that a developer would afford to a male character.
The four pinups posted above absolutely, 100% sexualize men. The fact that they may not be sexualized to cater to straight women but gay people doesn't mean they're not sexualized.
The request is to reduce female sexualization, not necessarily increase male sexualization. The point of most of the discussion about male sexualization is a) to counter the claims that "but most males are sexualized in games too" (they're not: compare and contrast Kratos to the pinups above), and b) to try to get men to get even a remote feel of what being sexualized all the fucking time feels like (e.g. imagining a word where 80% of games games prominently feature dudes like the above pin-ups and constantly focus on their pecs, asses and crotches).
It definitely exists; as I mention before, just ask my SO whenever Hugh Jackman shows shirtless (which is often, for that very reason. :D). I'm going to ask her if she can remember of any sexualized dudes in games she found attractive, and her opinion on the pinups and the one you posted.
stop it with your tall demands /s
Golly, I guess men had their 'sexual needs' catered to for so long that anything short of "change" indeed means taking it away. I mean, it sucks if you like that thing, but the very real effects it can have in how men treat or try to silence women * (and shit, let this topic also indicate this to some effect) is really sad.... We KNOW sexism is an issue, but it's interestingly seen here in how many men really don't want to listen for the sake and "glory" or sexualized female designs.
(*and to the gents too, thank you)
Do you mean an idealized design in the sense that women would want to be her? I posted a few examples of a female power fantasy earlier in the thread. Of course, that's my personal opinion, not everyone's "power fantasy" or "idealization" is the same.
There is, sometimes, male sexualization, but it's just really really rare, especially in video games (it's slightly more common in movies and TV because TV/movie producers do target female audiences a bit more and want their $$$ ;) ).
Earlier in the thread, was a post about female gaze/male sexualization examples from comics. So, probably something similar to that in a video game... if you can find an example of that outside of otome/niche games, be my guest. ;)
Edit: about that, btw,
Yeah, this. Women who "demand equality" don't necessarily want more shirtless dudes either. Like I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't want a male hero in an action/adventure game to run around shirtless in boxers the whole game either, because... that's just dumb.
It's 100% a preference. Personally I prefer a bit of chest hair over none at all, but I prefer no hair over bears. xD
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Its ultimately the dollar votes that count, not the message board outrage. EA did respond a bit by temporarily suspending the real money transactions, but I'd say it probably had more to do with preorder metrics they were seeing rather than some dislikes being clicked on reddit posts.
I decided to not buy Battlefront 2, and I won't until they announce progression reform for that game and reduce the grind considerably, to something doable within oh, 50 hours (as opposed to hundreds), because I do feel strongly about that, like many. Look, people are free to discourse as much as they want, but its all energy wasted if Battlefront is announced as the number one game of November in a few weeks with many millions sold, exceeding the first game. Which may happen because despite certain people professing their displeasure on the internet, they still needed their Star Wars fix and their preorder arrived last Friday. I hope I'm proven wrong, though, and the game launches with a soft number, and really gets EA thinking twice on what they do with this game going forward (and future projects). Because this is ultimately what will institute change.
Probably because a bunch of people talked about it online and realized how shitty it was. Discourse matters.
This is an older post I just saw because of Morrigan's back link, but:
Dishonored gets props for amazing character design: not just her, but Corvo himself in 2 looks amazing to me as a saltpeppered bearded guy myself. Certainly makes me identify with him so much more than with all the main characters right ouf of high school. :D
Also apopos of Morrigan's examples of great characters, Alys Branwin and Samus are amazing picks. I've always loved strong and competent female characters since my childhood; I would also add adult Rydia and Celes / Terra to that list.
You're kidding, right? The chain of causality had nothing to do with preorders, and everything to do with Disney upset that the CNN and others reported their latest Star Wars game as gambling for kids, and why would CNN report on that except for the internet outrage? You picked literally the worst possible example to defend your thesis. :D
Update: My SO's opinions on the four pinups: "poses far too gay for me, no offense", the other two "too young, not manly enough". It's funny because I knew she would say exactly that. :D
On the subject of chest hair "it depends, some dudes look like bears :P".
On the subject of these questions: "what kind of gay forum is that?" *rofl*
Dishonored gets props for amazing character design: not just her, but Corvo himself in 2 looks amazing to me as a saltpeppered bearded guy myself. Certainly makes me identify with him so much more than with all the main characters right ouf of high school. :D
Also apopos of Morrigan's examples of great characters, Alys Branwin and Samus are amazing picks. I've always loved strong and competent female characters since my childhood; I would also add adult Rydia and Celes / Terra to that list.
You're kidding, right? The chain of causality had nothing to do with preorders, and everything to do with Disney upset that the CNN and others reported their latest Star Wars game as gambling for kids, and why would CNN report on that except for the internet outrage? You picked literally the worst possible example to defend your thesis. :D
Update: My SO's opinions on the four pinups: "poses far too gay for me, no offense", the other two "too young, not manly enough". It's funny because I knew she would say exactly that. :D
On the subject of chest hair "it depends, some dudes look like bears :P".
On the subject of these questions: "what kind of gay forum is that?" *rofl*
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I understand that. And we're getting there, are we not? In my perception huge strides have already been made. There is a good amount of well designed, dignified women characters in games. I remember times when there were basically none.
I feel like too much of the discussion seems to be about blaming sexy (and stupid) character designs like Kojima's Quiet in games that were never at any point about high sophistication, dignity and great taste. The MGS games always had countless idiotic characters (male and female), stupid tropes and plot points.
Yea I've read some examples in this thread, but I was specifically asking for that user's opinion on this. It's obviously more of a subjective thing, don't know if there's a specific stipulation that applies to every design or not.
But reading your post, I see some interesting points. R. Mika is ridiculous fan-service, can't see anyone disputing that. But do you think showing skin in female character designs makes them inherently sexualised unlike male character designs?
How did you learn about the microtransactions and how bad they were? Did it have anything to do with the fact that people were talking about it?
There have been multiple people in this thread who have stepped up to say that they usually don't think about this stuff but now have a better understanding of the issue after following this thread. It's not a lot of people and certainly not enough to affect anyone's profit margins, but progress is progress. It's slow and hard, but it doesn't come about by everybody sitting around and making isolated purchasing decisions.
It's not good enough. We need to keep talking about it, and keep the issue in the spotlight so that devs know that this shit won't be tolerated or accepted.
Things are going in the right direction, sure, but the issue is far from being solved or eradicated. That's why we have threads like these.
How many of those 'dollar votes' were provoked into doing so after online discussion? Of course we don't know, but discussion does raise awareness.
There's also the difference that discussion lets people know they aren't alone in finding the status quo uncomfortable. That's a bit more of an issue with social stuff than lootboxes, where issues with body image and expectations of what's normal amongst young people have wide effects outside the boxes hooked up to the Internet. Because social stuff has that element to it, talking about it, even without the money element, can still be helpful even if not directly influencing the bank balance of developers.
I appreciate it's a very 'male' response to go down the route of 'Does this need fixing? How can we fix this? Money matters more than talk to publishers. That's the answer. Do that.'. That's the kinda first response that's always in my mind when my wife wanks to talk about a crap day, or sexism at work, or we discuss how our daughter is doing etc, I've done it so many times without even thinking about it, usually when I'm tired. It's how I function at work with constant problem solving. These days I try to remember that immediately offering a hot-take solution, filing the issue into a mental, compartmentalised box so I can forget about it 'till next time and then wandering off isn't always helpful when this stuff is endemic to what some people have to deal with all the time, not just in games but our modern, pervasive media in general. Recognition and awareness of the issue, not dismissing it as nothing-can-be-done and exploring how it affects those with a different perspective via discussion all come under empathy here.
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Ah, sorry if you meant to ask a specific poster instead of a general question, I didn't mean to butt in like that.
As for skin-showing: no, not necessarily. Female wrestlers have very revealing outfits, and they can be really sexy, but they usually offer, y'know, breast support at least. :D And depending on how the camera frames the character it wouldn't necessarily be objectification. R. Mika just looks incredibly goofy and stupid IMO.
This is diving into specifics/aesthetics more than broader issues, but it always surprises me that in games designed around (a) theoretically appealing to the broadest audience and (b) giving players incentives to dive into game systems for varying sorts of in-game reward, I can't comprehend why so often the default costumes for female characters are so insultingly titillating. Having optional or unlockable outfits as an addendum to more general-purpose designs/apparel seem like they would better serve both A and B.
I know the Quiet example is well-trodden, but it's also not uncharacteristic of this problem: She defaults to the stripper outfit, and the player would have to earn reasonable-looking military gear for her.
I know the Quiet example is well-trodden, but it's also not uncharacteristic of this problem: She defaults to the stripper outfit, and the player would have to earn reasonable-looking military gear for her.
I'm totally onboard with wanting more great women characters and threads like this discussing them. I actually enjoy a lot of story based games with a very female character perspective (Life is Strange comes to mind) more than I would've had if a similar story been told with a male protagonist.
But blaming the sexy (and sexist) stupid doesn't help much there imo. As I see it, a lot of "that shit" is actually very much tolerated and rewarded with money and sales. The sexy stupid won't go away, and neither should it honestly. (But maybe that's my less puritan euro perspective.)
Edit: So I'd be kinda more interested to see some of the sexy/sexist stupid geared towards a female audience. But it seems that is pretty hard to do / doesn't have a big enough audience.
Otome is the only genre where you see it with any amount of frequency.
You own your own body and right to public use of your body likeness. Assuming no one has the same body and likeness in which case you share such. A 3d printed human may look even closer than an identical twin. If 5 humans emerge, the result of 3d design and 3d printing, they share right over likeness, the author may also partake.
Now this says nothing regards generic human form.
Again. The male armor is akin to skin tight showing abs and pecs. A female version would show abs and boobs in the armor shape.
All exists as eternal truth. Humans have sexualized countless nonhuman forms. If we found aliens who , with no input from us, created human body art and sexualized it, there would be nothing wrong with it.
Perpetuate? Thats the same argument used against porn. Fiction/=reality. Are there those that cant distinguish? Yes, but that should not restrict freedom of others to express themselves. Could criticism of a politician drive someone to try to kill him? Yes but such criticism shouldnt be prohibited. These what ifs causality arguments against freedom are nonsense.
Does allowing people to drink alcohol result in deaths and rapes? Yes in a minority of cases it was part of the causal chain. Should we make alcohol illegal? Why no no we shouldn't.
Yet if there was a real woman that looked similar and she was your girlfriend in a bikini at the beach and asked you if she looks attractive... doubt you'd say no and doubt you'd have to lie to say yes.
It is the right with their moral busybodies who usually oppose sexually provocative clothing. The left in the U.S. is kinda rightish.
Sexuality, many are uncomfortable with it. But it is a natural part of the human condition.
Way I see it given time this issue will solve itself.
Within decades we will have true ai and with it the ability to rapidly create unlimited high quality personalized content. But without copyright reform, all this abundance of content will be locked and it will make it difficult to share such. Remakes, Unofficial Sequels, What if alternate takes, etc.
Yet your governments would imprison, rape and in other countries torture and kill the innocent for having freedom of expression. That is simply unacceptable.
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While I'm sure that there's a contingent of people who'd prefer to see this stuff disappear entirely, just as there's a contingent of people who would like to see pornography banned from sale and consumption entirely, I don't think that's really what most people are arguing for here. It's not likely to happen because, as you say, the market for it is huge. The problem is that, even if we're making progress, trying to play games as a woman is often akin to walking through a minefield, especially if one has a preference for certain genres. This isn't a matter of titillation existing, it's a matter of titillation slapping people who aren't part of the target audience in the face when they're just trying to relax and play a game that's otherwise targeted basically directly to them.
I'm going to quote myself here, with some bolding for emphasis because it's relevant again. Hopefully that's okay.
We can't stop talking about it until at the very least the minefield is gone. Progress has been made, but it's not even remotely enough.
This is actually very interesting to me, I believe there is a big discrepancy between the east and the west for ideal male figure
Asians in general aren't as into men with huge muscles or a more rugged look
It is easy to see if you look at the male idol groups from Korea or Japan.
The "bishounen"(beautiful boy) culture is a thing. When you look at otome games, while the characters may have muscles, they aren't the same type of muscle you see here.
They're more lean, like swimmer's muscles almost. All the characters have abs though
As with anime, female characters now have many tropes that's in play, obviously a pretty big controversial one would be a loli character
but we have to remember that there is a a male counterpart to that, the shouta character and I see lots of sexualization of that catered towards women as well in Japan.
How does this west vs east idealized men play into the sexualization of men in video games?
Does it perhaps make it so that some people don't realize that some eastern games are definitely selling some sex appeal but western audience doesn't see it that way? or vice versa?
Yes, true. But honestly I very often – as a man – feel pretty much the same.
I don't feel like I'm sitting on the king's throne and the gaming industry is catering to my every whim, everything is being geared towards and tailor made for me. There is plenty of games that feature terribly annoying, if not outright disgusting sociopath male main characters that I don't _want_ to play, I don't _want_ to be, but that I have to put up with and begrudgingly tolerate if I want to experience the respective game(s) and their mechanics – God of War, GTA, Watchdogs (1) come to mind immediately, as does most of Kojima's output as well.
Do I feel respected as a male person and catered towards by Kojima's creations and male characters that are very often either dumb sociopaths, or that shit their pants for laughs, prance around naked while hiding their crotch in shame, or get totally distracted oggling porn magazines, all for the most heartiest of laughs as well? No, I sure don't!
The game industry overall has a lot to learn and to mature when it comes to its characters, story arcs and writing. I think we can agree to that. (I guess the female side of things has even a little bit more to catch up to.)
I mean, when one actually look at who's popular in the west, huge muscle-bound guys aren't considered the biggest factor. Remember that it is Loki that is the most popular character in the Thor franchise. And while the heroes of the MCU have muscles (I argue the helicopter scene in Captain America: Civil War is for the gun show and I'm not talking about the machine guns on the helicopter) they're also not Arnold shaped. The most attractive guys aren't shaped like Drax but are more slimmer and more athletic.
My point was that the male armor was based on a real type of armor that existed, whereas the female version of it was just a metal bikini with zero basis in reality and zero visual design similarities to its male counterpart. I don't think the female armor being shaped that way would be an issue in the context of this one specific set of armor. So long as it doesn't pointlessly expose the midriff like below;
edit: I should also clarify that the discussion about this specific armor set started out with the claim that 'both (the male and female version) are unrealistic', which is why it is worth pointing out that the male design is in line with a type of armor that actually exists.
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What? My "catching the leftist disease" was a joke at CICUU's leftist strawman.
The left as in the Democratic Party isn't all that far to the left compared to many other western countries. But I think you're talking about college campuses, right?
I don't think the left that you're referring to is attempting to conceal or control women in the right-wing/conservative-religious sense. Most of these people are sex-positive, pro open relationships, pro abortion etc.
Is being critical of media what defines them as rightish to you?
I would have to disagree with your statement that all exists as eternal truth.
Actually this is exactly why we place restrictions on alcohol consumption. The strong empirical and biological connection between drunk driving and vehicular homicide (which can impose the unfreedom of death onto others), has led many societies to recognize there is a tradeoff and that restricting the freedom to consume alcohol and drive of some is worth it to preserve the freedom to live for others.
The empirical evidence for sexism and depiction of women in games is not as rich, at the current state of research. Causality models are lacking right now. However, the possibility of such a trade-off exists. It warrants further investigation to determine whether the strong correlations observed between sexism and video game exposure result from a causal connection, in what direction, and if so, how we wish to address that as a society.
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This thread:
pls stop dressing female characters in bikinis
*36 pages later*
(((SOROS))) DID GAMERGATE
pls stop dressing female characters in bikinis
*36 pages later*
(((SOROS))) DID GAMERGATE
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