What's the upper limit on Pokémon?

Stopdoor · Sep 6, 2018

I kind of fell off Pokémon with Diamond, but for the last few months I powered through White, Y, and Ultra Sun to "catch up" and maybe get excited for Let's Go (side note: now I'm thoroughly burned out and need a break instead, lol).

So now I'm caught up on the fact there's 807 of these things + forms and stuff, and you know, obviously that's an insane amount of content and I'm just imagining it from a workload perspective. Back in the day it seems it was a struggle to even get all 151 rendered for Pokémon Snap or Stadium, and it was a big deal when that Mystery Dungeon game on 3DS didn't go through the effort of rendering out every Pokémon and only offered a subset, and Pokémon Let's Go is obviously slightly controversial for it. And it must be a pain to give each Pokémon love and attention with animations, so you end up with bizarre move animations and lack of individuality.

So I dunno, I'm curious how you think it should be handled. There must be some upper limit where the Pokémon Company would regret making more and more content they're pressured to include every single game. How do you think it should be handled? More work force? Less Pokémon added? Limited subsets of Pokémon available in future games? Other creative solutions?

And yeah, what's the max limit on Pokémon? In another 10 years do you expect them be trucking along with like 1200+ monsters or whatever with full attention to detail? 2000+? From a rational perspective.

Grexeno · Sep 6, 2018

They're already adding less completely new Pokemon and doing more new forms.

But there is no upper limit.

Datajoy · Sep 6, 2018

The number of different types of animals, insects, and other critters, multiplied by the number of different pokemon types.

WrenchNinja · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
There must be some upper limit where the Pokémon Company would regret making more and more content they're pressured to include every single game.

Theyre ignoring 656 of these critters for Lets Go.

Stopdoor · Sep 6, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
Theyre ignoring 656 of these critters for Lets Go.

Yeah, and you can hear the complaining from a mile away. But what choice do they have, I guess? Are we ready for that to be the always reality?

onpoint · Sep 6, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
Theyre ignoring 656 of these critters for Lets Go.

Yeah, they definitely should have put them all in a remake of Red... lol

WrenchNinja · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
Yeah, and you can hear the complaining from a mile away. But what choice do they have, I guess? Are we ready for that to be the always reality?

They future proofed most of these Pokemon with HD models and close up animations in X/Y and walking animations in Su/Mo. The choice seems pretty obvious, they should be included.

Bishop89 · Sep 6, 2018

id get bored if they didnt keep adding new ones and revamping old

Crayolan · Sep 6, 2018

They've kinda already hit a soft limit, considering they've started adding a much smaller pool of new mons in gen 6 and 7.

hangongetready said:
Yeah, they definitely should have put them all in a remake of Red... lol

They remade Red 14 years ago with over twice as many pokemon as are in Let's Go.

finalflame · Sep 6, 2018

Should've been 251 but here we are. If I were them I'd reboot the universe before it crosses 1K. A clean slate is always good.

WrenchNinja · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
Yeah, they definitely should have put them all in a remake of Red... lol

Im not sure why youre laughing. Every remake has included the ability to use any and all current Pokemon. Except this one.

Mobu · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
Yeah, they definitely should have put them all in a remake of Red... lol

Why not? The first Red remake was compatible with all pokemons released at the time

Stopdoor · Sep 6, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
They future proofed most of these Pokemon with HD models and close up animations in X/Y and walking animations in Su/Mo. The choice seems pretty obvious, they should be included.

I assume they're still doing a pass over of all this stuff for Let's Go though, even if it reduces some legwork? Has there been noticeably similar models and animations noticed?

Deleted member 42686 · Sep 6, 2018

Well...lets go is already limiting pretty much a lot of mons.

Anyway, I would say that create regional variants sounds like reasonable idea. But they should stop making lazy work there. I mean, they should at least try bring some stat differences between them.

Mobu · Sep 6, 2018

bithcing about too many pokemon is like bitching about too many animals in real life tbh

Deleted member 3815 · Sep 6, 2018

I don't understand your question. Are you asking how many Pokémon they should include in a Pokémon game or should keep making new Pokémon till the end of time?

hangongetready said:
Yeah, they definitely should have put them all in a remake of Red... lol

It's a remake of Yellow not Red,
They added new features that didn't exist in the original version like Alolan forms, Mega, Eevee being a starter that the player can use,
Other remake managed to fold the other cross gen evolution into the Pokédex but Kanto can't for some daft reason.

silby · Sep 6, 2018

lvl 99 Pixel · Sep 6, 2018

The second 3ds Mystery Dungeon had every single pokemon though. Im pretty sure theyre using the same 3d models so its more that they just didnt feel like doing it in the first game or something. They kept the animations very simple still.

I expect most animations and models to be retained once again because thats what they have been doing since going 3D, so its not like theyre doing them from scratch each time.

chrisPjelly · Sep 6, 2018

There's no limit so long as TPC is alive and profitable

BasilZero · Sep 6, 2018

There should be no limit.

WrenchNinja · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
I assume they're still doing a pass over of all this stuff for Let's Go though, even if it reduces some legwork? Has there been noticeably similar models and animations noticed?

Based on all of the footage, pretty much everything is being reused.

onpoint · Sep 6, 2018

Mr-Joker said:
I don't understand your question. Are you asking how many Pokémon they should include in a Pokémon game or should keep making new Pokémon till the end of time?

It's a remake of Yellow not Red,

They added new features that didn't exist in the original version like Alolan forms, Mega, Eevee being a starter that the player can use,

Other remake managed to fold the other cross gen evolution into the Pokédex but Kanto can't for some daft reason.

If you're gonna call out Red / Blue and Yellow being different in this context despite the same exact dex in those titles I don't even see a point in discussing this with you.

It's a Kanto game. You get Kanto mons. Just think of the extra stuff as a bonus instead of focusing on what isn't there and you'll feel better.

Deleted member 3815 · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
If you're gonna call out Red / Blue and Yellow being different in this context despite the same exact dex in those titles I don't even see a point in discussing this with you.

It's a Kanto game. You get Kanto mons. Just think of the extra stuff as a bonus instead of focusing on what isn't there and you'll feel better.

Wow you're pretty arrogant.

WrenchNinja · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
If you're gonna call out Red / Blue and Yellow being different in this context despite the same exact dex in those titles I don't even see a point in discussing this with you.

It's a Kanto game. You get Kanto mons. Just think of the extra stuff as a bonus instead of focusing on what isn't there and you'll feel better.

This Kanto game doesnt exist in a bubble. Why should we lower our standards?

Stopdoor · Sep 6, 2018

Mr-Joker said:
I don't understand your question. Are you asking how many Pokémon they should include in a Pokémon game or should keep making new Pokémon till the end of time

I posed like 3 questions at the end of my OP, but it doesn't feel like anyone read that and just throwing out "they should just go infinite forever" without much thought, so that's a shame.

Maple · Sep 6, 2018

No upper limit. New Pokemon keep the franchise alive. It's what players and fans want.

And it really isn't that much - you're looking at ~100 new Pokemon every 3 years. That's not bad at all.

louisacommie · Sep 6, 2018

Let's to included megas but not Magnezone and crowbat

Deleted member 35077 · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
If you're gonna call out Red / Blue and Yellow being different in this context despite the same exact dex in those titles I don't even see a point in discussing this with you.

It's a Kanto game. You get Kanto mons. Just think of the extra stuff as a bonus instead of focusing on what isn't there and you'll feel better.

This didn't stop Firered and Leafgreen from having later generation pokemon, a game where they purposely added new areas for them.

Shinku_King · Sep 6, 2018

I'm cool with the 151+ new forms, pretty easy to keep track of them all again.

Deleted member 42686 · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
I posed like 3 questions at the end of my OP, but it doesn't feel like anyone read that and just throwing out "they should just go infinite forever" without much thought, so that's a shame.

Just what kind of answer do you want lol

Bring new pokemons keep the franchise alive, theres no mystery there.

ASaiyan · Sep 6, 2018

I don't know, but Pokemon #1,000 is when I have my midlife crisis. Regardless of how old I am at the time. Lol.

Stopdoor · Sep 6, 2018

SaberX said:
Just what kind of answer do you want lol

Bring new pokemons keep the franchise alive, theres no mystery there.

You don't think there's a logistical issue with having 1500+ Pokémon in a single game with the same attention to detail?

Sandfox · Sep 6, 2018

I would like there is no upper limit, but there probably will end up being a point where it's too much for a lot of people. In fact, there are already people who feel this way.

This is the reason why they started adding less Pokemon each gen with older Pokemon getting new forms instead.

CopperPuppy · Sep 6, 2018

There is no upper limit and they should continue to add.

Stopdoor · Sep 6, 2018

CopperPuppy said:
There is no upper limit and they should continue to add.

You don't think this would be a logistical issue if there was 2000+ Pokémon? Do you think it's fine for games to have a subset of monsters?

deltatheta · Sep 6, 2018

Datajoy said:
The number of different types of animals, insects, and other critters, multiplied by the number of different pokemon types.

I guess so. You can pretty much make every combination into a distinct Pokemon design.

Just taking a dragonfly as an example, it's easy to imagine a Pokemon-ized design for an electric dragonfly, a psychic dragonfly, a fairy dragonfly, a rock dragonfly, maybe not a ground dragonfly but it pretty much works for every Pokemon type/distinct looking animal combination.

Maple said:
No upper limit. New Pokemon keep the franchise alive. It's what players and fans want.

And it really isn't that much - you're looking at ~100 new Pokemon every 3 years. That's not bad at all.

So that would be about 33 a year, or about one every 6 work days. Imagine if your job was to come up with a Pokemon design every week. There's someone who does that! (I know it's a job that's probably spread about among a few people, but it's still funny to think about.)

onpoint · Sep 6, 2018

Mr-Joker said:
Wow you're pretty arrogant.

Maybe I am. But you're coming off pretty entitled expecting they should always put every Pokémon in every game. It's a ludicrously illogical thing to expect. I didn't see anyone expecting Wind Waker content in the remake of Ocarina of Time. Why weren't there Army of Darkness characters in the Evil Dead remake? It just doesn't make sense to me that a remake of a specific game is constantly kicked for not having content that wasn't in that game.

But it's fine, I can see you have your mind made up on this.

WrenchNinja said:
This Kanto game doesnt exist in a bubble. Why should we lower our standards?

Putting aside the Kanto game=Kanto content idea, I can think of a couple logical reasons.

1. They can do this for every gen now and make multiple sequels

2. It's an newbie-focused product and 800+ mon might scare away or intimidate the target audience

3. It's a ton of work and this game probably didn't have a super long dev cycle.

4. That's what the "real" sequel coming later is for.

Castile said:
This didn't stop Firered and Leafgreen from having later generation pokemon, a game where they purposely added new areas for them.

A cool feature for sure. It also doesn't mean every game going forward has to do that as a rule.

Deleted member 3815 · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
You don't think there's a logistical issue with having 1500+ Pokémon in a single game with the same attention to detail?

You're assuming that they will have to rebuilt the Pokémon model from scratch, they don't do that and just tend to recycle model of the older Pokémon across multiple generations.

Take the current Pokémon models, they existed during gen 5 as they were used in the Pokédex 3D that showcased Pokémon from gen 1-5. Those model got reused in gen 6, 7, Pokémon go and now Pokémon Let's Go.

Heck Pokémon Battle Revolution was using Pokémon model from Pokémon Stadium, with a few being updated.

RomanceDawn · Sep 6, 2018

I feel like each Pokemon creature has something of a following and they should keep them alive forever more. They've already been doing less Pokemon each generation but more individuality should be added into their animations. Or rather more attacking and idle animations period. The work load would be huge but I'm pretty sure I see a ton of the same basic stances, poses and idle animations since Stadium.

Of course much of that has been totally remade over the years but what they do have in assets should be added to each generation. Maybe every gen each Pokemon gets 2 new animations added. 1 new idle and 1 new attack animation. As the years go on those animations would theoretically stack up to make them look more alive in the games.

I don't mind keeping the new numbers low but add in roughly an equal amount of region variants and could keep things very fresh while holding back the vast numbers some. Of course this idea only delays the inevitable.

I think the Pokemon company could do 1500 different monsters and still have the games functioning as we imagine but yeah at some point it does seem like things do need to make a complete halt. Though what do I know? Maybe the number of monsters just grows forever until the earth is destroyed. Maybe a new gameplay hook is found that is so great it completely overshadows the idea of more new Pokemon.

Deleted member 42686 · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
You don't think there's a logistical issue with having 1500+ Pokémon in a single game with the same attention to detail?

We already have more than 800 here. Don't you think people were worried when it was 200? Whats the difference?

And as far I can say, thats their deal. They're the ones who gonna say if they can handle or not and how to handle.

Kyzer · Sep 6, 2018

I think it's like Bitcoin, they will release less and less over time indefinitely until one year there's one new Pokemon a year and it's a really big deal and rare :thinking_emoji:

Deleted member 4034 · Sep 6, 2018

Until it stops selling

Fj0823 · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
Yeah, they definitely should have put them all in a remake of Red... lol

They did 14 years ago. Imagine that.

Crazymoogle · Sep 6, 2018

Stopdoor said:
You don't think there's a logistical issue with having 1500+ Pokémon in a single game with the same attention to detail?

The thing about video game production is that the Pokemon asset mill is actually very well understood. It was harder in 2D where space limits were extreme and you needed like 15 pieces of art per pokemon. But now in 3D, you can pretty much just setup a production lab like EA does for Madden. It's very easy to schedule and apply manpower as needed, especially compared to game development itself.

Worst case, we see a day where Nintendo patches in the non-native pokemon Day 1, but realistically cartridge size is accelerating faster than Game Freak is adding Pokemon. A given Pokemon asset takes time and money to make, but space wise these are not like 500MB each.

Sebastopa · Sep 6, 2018

I'm thinking it should be around 1000 beasts.

After that I wouldn't mind if they introduced the concept of "Pokémon extinction" or something, so they can keep adding while also removing.

Fj0823 · Sep 6, 2018

Sebastopa said:
I'm thinking it should be around 1000 beasts.

After that I wouldn't mind if they introduced the concept of "Pokémon extinction" or something, so they can keep adding while also removing.

"Mommy why can't I find a Greninja"

"They all died honey."

WrenchNinja · Sep 6, 2018

hangongetready said:
Putting aside the Kanto game=Kanto content idea, I can think of a couple logical reasons.

1. They can do this for every gen now and make multiple sequels

2. It's an newbie-focused product and 800+ mon might scare away or intimidate the target audience

3. It's a ton of work and this game probably didn't have a super long dev cycle.

4. That's what the "real" sequel coming later is for.

1. Every gen except 5 has less Pokemon than Gen 1. I mean i guess they could but theyd be content deprived.

2. Every Pokemon game is newbie focused and every Pokemon game has a curated roster. They dont throw every monster at you all at once. They also just dont bar people from using stuff outside of said roster.

3. It isnt actually since most of the work was already done in Gen 6 and 7.

4. The real sequel is for acknowledging the other Pokemon?

Zebei · Sep 6, 2018

For as long as new kids are born and play new games of pokemon. . .there is no limit.

onpoint · Sep 6, 2018

Fj0823 said:
They did 14 years ago. Imagine that.

All 807? Was every mon in full 3D or was it 2D? How long did they work on it?

It's not the same thing. What was done in the past does not require the same is done for every future game.

lvl 99 Pixel · Sep 6, 2018

There's definitely sort of a limit on drawing from mythologies and well known animals.
Its going to get more obscure and iterative for sure.

having one butterfly was charming kind of because it was the butterfly. When there's 20 kinds of butterfly just because they needed new Pokemon its kind of less special and more of a quota.
The upper limits going to vary for everyone, but we're almost certainly getting more electric rodents and more psychic cats.

What's the upper limit on Pokémon?

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