Should Bullies/Abusers be publicly named & shamed?

The Pharmercy · Sep 5, 2018

Kinda topic title.

I'm assuming we're all adults - as much as we occasionally pretend otherwise - but if you suffer from a form or bullying or abuse it can be pretty fucking horrible. From my point of view & experience I would think the answer is obvious (Yes) but the other day I tried to name my abuser and got shouted down by a "friend" who said they didn't know why I thought it was ok and that it was bullying.

It's hard for me to step back and be more objective, so to speak, so I'm curious what people think

It’s Time To Go · Sep 5, 2018

I mean I can't be objective either but yes they should be named and shamed. Why on earth shouldn't they?

Shadybiz · Sep 5, 2018

Your friend doesn't sound like a friend.

Yes, no quarter to these fuckers, especially in the case of abusers.

Donos · Sep 5, 2018

Problem with this is that there is always the one person who gets wrongly accused/shamed.
Was a case of a girl who got assaulted/raped at a underground parking in germany. A young man who was close at the premise got accused by internet detectives and "shamed" on facebook. Well, it turned out that he wasn't the right one but it was a couple days/weeks later so the life of the young man was already hell there.

Deleted member 2809 · Sep 5, 2018

Cry For Mercy said:
the other day I tried to name my abuser and got shouted down by a "friend" who said they didn't know why I thought it was ok and that it was bullying.

Fuck em
Name and shame

Servbot24 · Sep 5, 2018

Depends on the severity and the person. It's hard to pin down where the line is.

A school kid who steals someone's lunch money doesn't deserve to have their name strewn publicly across the internet so that it becomes their permanent legacy.

A sexual abuser, especially one in a place of power such as politicians and actors, absolutely deserves to be exposed. On the other hand should a janitor who offers unwelcome comments on women's bodies be exposed to the derision of millions of people across the globe? He should be chastised by his boss no doubt and perhaps fired if the behavior continues, but sending an internet mob after him seems cruel and unusual.

I can't really say where the line is that it becomes warranted.

Sesha · Sep 5, 2018

Absolutely. Bullying is also a form of abuse and can negatively impact your physical health in addition to your mental health permanently. I view it the same way as any other forms of physical and mental abuse.

Amnixia · Sep 5, 2018

Servbot24 said:
Depends on the severity and the person. It's hard to pin down where the line is.

A school kid who steals someone's lunch money doesn't deserve to have their name strewn publicly across the internet so that it becomes their permanent legacy.

A sexual abuser, especially one in a place of power such as politicians and actors, absolutely deserves to be exposed. On the other hand should a janitor who offers unwelcome comments on women's bodies be exposed to the derision of millions of people across the globe? He should be chastised by his boss no doubt and perhaps fired if the behavior continues, but sending an internet mob after him seems cruel and unusual.

I can't really say where the line is that it becomes warranted.

I agree with Servbot24, not saying I got all the answers or know EXACTLY where the line is but especially with social media just throwing out names seems a bad idea.

Amory · Sep 5, 2018

I guess it depends on what they did and what you've done to try to get them to stop.

I'm assuming we're not talking about a schoolyard bully who's taking your lunch money

Englebert3rd · Sep 5, 2018

Yes, definitely. Family too. I hate this stigma where family can't be "criticised" or you're a bad person.

dragonchild · Sep 5, 2018

In principle, yes, but problem is that the court of public opinion does what it wants, with zero regard for justice.

Take Michael Jackson. He was rather eccentric so the media smelled blood and hounded him for YEARS for a gotcha story that he was a child molester.
On the flip side, Trump publicly bragged about sexual assault and got elected President.

I think abusers should get what they deserve, but court of public opinion does what it wants.

Amnixia · Sep 5, 2018

dragonchild said:
In principle, yes, but problem is that the court of public opinion does what it wants, with zero regard for justice.

Take Michael Jackson. He was rather eccentric so the media smelled blood and hounded him for YEARS for a gotcha story that he was a child molester.
On the flip side, Trump publicly bragged about sexual assault and got elected President.

I think abusers should get what they deserve, but court of public opinion does what it wants.

Trump is white and the victims were women, so the right wing didn't care.

Lucky241 · Sep 5, 2018

Bullies and abusers often use whatever means available to their advantage. If you create a method to hurt someone like this, there is a very good chance abusers will abuse the system to name victims as abusers.

Remember the HR department was supposed to protect workers from abuse by bosses. Bosses soon staffed the HR department with people loyal to the company/boss. The HR department just became another tool for abusive bosses to protect themselves and to find means to fire victims if they spoke up. This is why lawyers tell you to never to go the HR department. Jump straight past them and go straight to the lawyer.

dragonchild · Sep 5, 2018

Idolvo said:
Trump is white and the victims were women, so the right wing didn't care.

I don't disagree, but please don't take my point and run with it. Whatever the reason, the court of public opinion does what it wants. If that means misogyny or racism, sure, it'll happily go with that. The point is that it'll happily go after the wrong people.

Question is, is anyone comfortable with leaving these sort of things up to mob justice? I'm not against shaming the guilty in principle; my concern is the hit rate IRL. It's not good.

Amory · Sep 5, 2018

dragonchild said:
In principle, yes, but problem is that the court of public opinion does what it wants, with zero regard for justice.

Take Michael Jackson. He was rather eccentric so the media smelled blood and hounded him for YEARS for a gotcha story that he was a child molester.
On the flip side, Trump publicly bragged about sexual assault and got elected President.

I think abusers should get what they deserve, but court of public opinion does what it wants.

I think the Michael Jackson stuff was a little more than a gotcha story.

dragonchild · Sep 5, 2018

Amory said:
I think the Michael Jackson stuff was a little more than a gotcha story.

Fine, pick someone else. There's no shortage of people who've had their names dragged through the mud.

Heromanz · Sep 5, 2018

Amory said:
I think the Michael Jackson stuff was a little more than a gotcha story.

Eh, not really

Erik Twice · Sep 5, 2018

Public humillation is barbaric, as a form of mob justice it's inherently unjust and promotes the very abuse it's supposed to stop. After all, who is more able to publicy shame someone? The victim or the bully himself? Think about it. Who got publicy humillated by Gawker? Bullies or gay people? Justine Sacco or those who post videos of a woman being raped online?

Promoting public humillation to stop abuse is like promoting gun culture to stop school shootings.

BakedTanooki · Sep 5, 2018

There was a long time where I got bullied / abused in school, even suffered from bleeding injuries from getting stabbed in the arm with pencils while having classes (and much more). The teachers were bullied and afraid too, so nothing was done.

The thing that makes me most angry these days, even 13 or 14 years later, is how they just got away with it, while I'm still having nightmares and fucked up thoughts from time to time. I feel like I would feel a little bit more peaceful, if they will get what's mentioned in the OP.

On the other hand, I know it's probably very short sighted and won't really solve the overall problem.

The Pharmercy · Sep 5, 2018

Erik Twice said:
Public humillation is barbaric, as a form of mob justice it's inherently unjust and promotes the very abuse it's supposed to stop. After all, who is more able to publicy shame someone? The victim or the bully himself? Think about it. Who got publicy humillated by Gawker? Bullies or gay people? Justine Sacco or those who post videos of a woman being raped online?

Promoting public humillation to stop abuse is like promoting gun culture to stop school shootings.

This is interesting. Not saying I disagree or anything its just...hmm. Like I don't mean it in a mob justice sense - like "Hey, this person is scum. Go dox/harass them" etc but more of a PSA style thing? IDK. Having some discussion about it is what i wanted anyway. I don't know much about the Gawker stuff (I'm not from America so it the news coverage here was more of a cursory glance) but its probably a valid point.

I guess my thought is this: Someone is bullying/abusing people. It has been going on for a length of time and I feel like people should know what this person is really like because in a classic bully sense, there's a facade or mask they wear for some people. They also say vile things behind people's backs. Personally I think bullies/abusers SHOULD be named and shamed but not to exact any sort of mob justice - because that does make me feel uncomfortable and I say that as a long time victim of abuse - but yeah. A PSA style thing.

I understand it could set a dangerous precedent if it was like "I don't like Erik Twice, they're a bully" etc but hopefully you understand that's not what I would mean. Ty for discussing!

Dyno · Sep 5, 2018

Cry For Mercy said:
This is interesting. Not saying I disagree or anything its just...hmm. Like I don't mean it in a mob justice sense - like "Hey, this person is scum. Go dox/harass them" etc but more of a PSA style thing? IDK. Having some discussion about it is what i wanted anyway. I don't know much about the Gawker stuff (I'm not from America so it the news coverage here was more of a cursory glance) but its probably a valid point.

I guess my thought is this: Someone is bullying/abusing people. It has been going on for a length of time and I feel like people should know what this person is really like because in a classic bully sense, there's a facade or mask they wear for some people. They also say vile things behind people's backs. Personally I think bullies/abusers SHOULD be named and shamed but not to exact any sort of mob justice - because that does make me feel uncomfortable and I say that as a long time victim of abuse - but yeah. A PSA style thing.

I understand it could set a dangerous precedent if it was like "I don't like Erik Twice, they're a bully" etc but hopefully you understand that's not what I would mean. Ty for discussing!

But you have to acknowledge that's not the world we live in now. The bully would then become the target of endless amounts of harassment across the Internet for sure.

IMO our species aren't fit to judge each other at large like that since we're too damn primitive still. Typically allowing mass public opinion against an individual to be the last word rarely ends well.

The Pharmercy · Sep 5, 2018

Amory said:
I guess it depends on what they did and what you've done to try to get them to stop.

I'm assuming we're not talking about a schoolyard bully who's taking your lunch money

God, no.

That's what I meant really by "I assume we're all adults" because, not to be dismissive towards anyone who was bullied at school because it fucking sucks, but I mean something with a longer lasting effect. I'm hesitant to get into my own situation because I have an inability to type things concisely but it just came up the other day. I think people's mob justice concern is totally valid but I think in my own mind I don't think there's much risk of that because...well, on social media it's not like I have much pull. And it's not like I'm going to post name/online aliases on Reddit or 4Chan etc.

Rogote · Sep 5, 2018

Name and shame how? Like in twitter, or telling people in real life who you know who might be in contact with the bully as well? Like in school bullying cases you tell the administrative staff at school etc? Be as it may, as someone who was bullied bad for years as a kid, I tend to lean towards the "fuck them, they had the option to not bully and make someone's life hell, now live with the (even if overblown) consequences". If I have to choose between an overblown consequence to the bully or no consequence at all, I'll pick the former every time.

stump sock · Sep 5, 2018

Heromanz said:
Eh, not really

Rogue Agent · Sep 5, 2018

Yes, they should be.

The Pharmercy · Sep 5, 2018

Shredderi said:
Name and shame how? Like in twitter, or telling people in real life who you know who might be in contact with the bully as well? Like in school bullying cases you tell the administrative staff at school etc? Be as it may, as someone who was bullied bad for years as a kid, I tend to lean towards the "fuck them, they had the option to not bully and make someone's life hell, now live with the (even if overblown) consequences". If I have to choose between an overblown consequence to the bully or no consequence at all, I'll pick the former every time.

Well, in this case it was Twitter. But it wasn't "Shredderi Shredder *insert address*" etc but more of a...well, it's like if I posted here saying "Hi, my name is John and I've been bullied/abused by *name*". But on Twitter the only people who follow me are either irl friends or, for some reason, a bunch of Hearthstone pros (I don't play the game so why they follow me is eternally a mystery). Basically it doesn't feel like if I was to say something it'd be a rallying cry for a mob.

And it's more of a "getting it off your chest" thing rather than going all intro to Shrek on someone's ass.

Kewlmyc · Sep 5, 2018

Abusers should be arrested.

Publicly shaming bullies usually ends up with others becoming cyber bullies themselves with the hate mob mentality on social media nowadays. Not a fan, especially when said bully is a child/teen.

sherpajosh · Sep 5, 2018

Make them wear a shirt in public that says they bully. Somewhere public for a few hours. A big B on the front and back. See how they like it.

fanboi · Sep 5, 2018

Maybe not really related, but you have a legal punishment and a moral punishment.

The moral punishment is from the people around you, even after your legal punishment is over.

But... I am not sure about shaming on a public site.

Anthony Mooch · Sep 5, 2018

Kids are always gonna bully each other. Kids will bully the ugly kid, short kid, fat kid. Sometimes you're all 3

Fiction · Sep 5, 2018

Its complicated. With kids, you need to look at the root of why the kids are bullying. If they are just assholes, welp...

With adults, sometimes victims of abuse can't come forward. If someone were to name their abuser for them, it could ruin their lives

Deleted member 15948 · Sep 5, 2018

Kewlmyc said:
Abusers should be arrested.

Publicly shaming bullies usually ends up with others becoming cyber bullies themselves with the hate mob mentality on social media nowadays. Not a fan, especially when said bully is a child/teen.

This is pretty much it. Mob justice might feel viscerally good, but it just increases the scope of the problem. Public name-and-shame is just another form of bullying, regardless of the target's innocence or guilt.

Deleted member 2625 · Sep 5, 2018

Cry For Mercy said:
Personally I think bullies/abusers SHOULD be named and shamed but not to exact any sort of mob justice - because that does make me feel uncomfortable and I say that as a long time victim of abuse - but yeah. A PSA style thing.

you can't separate these two.

also, frankly, you will look stupid. consider that this will also appear in searches for your name, in future. the so-called "bully" (I don;t think this term applies to adults at all btw – you are either being legally harassed, or you are not, bullying is a kid thing) can co-opt this practice and fire back, providing possibly a new and ever-present path for abuse... i doubt it will serve you in any sense to name people in this way besides a very, very short term satisfaction about your "PSA", coupled with an ineffectual and potentially worse situation.

ishan · Sep 5, 2018

Sexual abusers yes we have lists for that rest no not really . Bullies high school end and should be fought in high school yes . Bullies grown up you're just letting someone go all over you . That's on you as a grown up .

Edit obviously assuming no lgbt concerns

Edit 2 : stand up for yourself as a person if you're incapable of it that's completely on you. You have legal avenues take advantage of them social avenues etc take advantage of them if you don't it's on you

Deleted member 2809 · Sep 5, 2018

Anthony Mooch said:
Kids are always gonna bully each other. Kids will bully the ugly kid, short kid, fat kid. Sometimes you're all 3

Yeah good life lesson for kids. You deserve the shit you get, fuck you you shouldn't have been ugly, short or fat in the first place. Good stuff man.

Deleted member 6582 · Sep 5, 2018

Situational. Some people are oblivious, some people are just kinda assholes but if possible you should let them know to their face. There's definitely a level where that doesn't work either because of power differential, unresponsiveness, psychological abuse or because the offense was already so awful it's clear their intentions cannot be mistaken. Any sort of abuse is unacceptable, if they do not stop then you need to escalate. Official private means would be number 2, though as we know power systems can sometimes protect certain people.

Internet name and shame is the nuclear option. You will get online abuse, they'll get online abuse and everything will turn to shit so don't just jump into that one because you're passive aggressive.

ishan · Sep 5, 2018

Shugga said:
Yeah good life lesson for kids. You deserve the shit you get, fuck you you shouldn't have been ugly, short or fat in the first place. Good stuff man.

The short kid will maybe end up tall the fat kid might end up being the hot jock . The ugly kid might end up super hot long run . I hate bullying and it's wrong . Should be stopped but kids needs to know things change from as kids it's part of growing up .

Not at all saying bullying is okay.absolutely not okay . But we need to let them know things change as you grow

Parthenios · Sep 5, 2018

Assuming "bullies" refers to minors, there's a reason why our laws protect young people (even the shitty ones) to a greater extent than adults. There's no reason why we would want or allow that to be public.

As a victim of extensive physical and mental bullying, there's no reason why I would want things that these people did 20 years ago to follow them around forever.

Qasiel · Sep 5, 2018

ishan said:
The short kid will maybe end up tall the fat kid might end up being the hot jock . The ugly kid might end up super hot long run . I hate bullying and it's wrong . Should be stopped but kids needs to know things change from as kids it's part of growing up .

Not at all saying bullying is okay.absolutely not okay . But we need to let them know things change as you grow

Because trauma as a kid magically disappears when you grow?

Sure, Jan.

Erik Twice · Sep 5, 2018

Cry For Mercy said:
This is interesting. Not saying I disagree or anything its just...hmm. Like I don't mean it in a mob justice sense - like "Hey, this person is scum. Go dox/harass them" etc but more of a PSA style thing?

I know what you mean. But it is exactly that.

Name and shame is, by definition, mob justice. You are relying on people, people who are not judges nor goverment officials, but random people to hurt someone's reputation because they "deserve it", on some level. And it's important to note that shaming people is harrassment.

And even then, it's a mob. It has no control and is powered by hate and prejudice. It's not going to be proportional, nor fair nor helpful. It's going to dox and harrass and send death threats and beat them up if they can. They are going to call family members. It is not possible to just have a little shaming that does not get out of hand.

And you have to think. Who is going to be create the mob? Bullied victims with no friends or conencted, powerful abusers? Think about public shaming. How many events can you think where it was the victims that came out ahead and how many were covers for abuse? The vast majority of events like this target the weak: Black people, gay people, the poor and transexuals. It is not a coincidence, it's what this stuff is.

I guess my thought is this: Someone is bullying/abusing people. It has been going on for a length of time and I feel like people should know what this person is really like

If they have been abusing people, they should be judged. for they have commited a crime.

This is abrupt, but important. Harrassment and abuse are crimes. They should be judged and investigated like all other crimes and that fact that we, as a society, do not is a disgrace. But the goal should be to change that, not to bypass it and turn it into some personal responsability thing where the victim must take justice by their own hand.

In other words, we are having this conversation because society is failling victims of abuse.

Note: This is a societal thing. This doesn't mean your friend is not shitty. There's a massive difference between "hey I'm going to put this on Twitter" and telling your friends, your local circle or people in a position of authority. And if they look the other way, or dismiss it, it's them who are being shitty. Not you.

because in a classic bully sense, there's a facade or mask they wear for some people. They also say vile things behind people's backs. Personally I think bullies/abusers SHOULD be named and shamed but not to exact any sort of mob justice - because that does make me feel uncomfortable and I say that as a long time victim of abuse - but yeah. A PSA style thing.

You also have to realize that all the stuff you mention can and probably is said to victims, including you. People claim that victims have a mask and that they "say vile things behind people's backs". If you are being bullied, you are already seeing the effects of being "named and shamed".

So one must think. Who does "name and shame" help? Victims of harrassment or the harrassers?

I firmly believe it's not the former. At all.

Dworkin · Sep 5, 2018

Absolutely Without a doubt. It's something I stand very firm on. If you criticise one of my political IG posts, I'm sending your boss a screencap of your hatespeech.

Deleted member 2809 · Sep 5, 2018

Dworkin said:
Absolutely Without a doubt. It's something I stand very firm on. If you criticise one of my political IG posts, I'm sending your boss a screencap of your hatespeech.

First message huh. Such courage.
How are your VOAT friends ? They must be gushing with this doozy of a post you gave us.

Dworkin · Sep 5, 2018

Shugga said:
First message huh. Such courage.
How are your VOAT friends ? They must be gushing with this doozy of a post you gave us.

Excuse me? I'm sorry, is there something in the posting guideline that references a new member can't post an opinion?

If not, please provide proof that I'm posting in bad faith.

Deleted member 2809 · Sep 5, 2018

Shit you got me man.

entremet · Sep 5, 2018

Shame doesn't work, guys. Why are we still obsessed with this strategy?

The Pharmercy · Sep 5, 2018

Erik Twice said:
I know what you mean. But it is exactly that.

Name and shame is, by definition, mob justice. You are relying on people, people who are not judges nor goverment officials, but random people to hurt someone's reputation because they "deserve it", on some level. And it's important to note that shaming people is harrassment.

And even then, it's a mob. It has no control and is powered by hate and prejudice. It's not going to be proportional, nor fair nor helpful. It's going to dox and harrass and send death threats and beat them up if they can. They are going to call family members. It is not possible to just have a little shaming that does not get out of hand.

And you have to think. Who is going to be create the mob? Bullied victims with no friends or conencted, powerful abusers? Think about public shaming. How many events can you think where it was the victims that came out ahead and how many were covers for abuse? The vast majority of events like this target the weak: Black people, gay people, the poor and transexuals. It is not a coincidence, it's what this stuff is.

If they have been abusing people, they should be judged. for they have commited a crime.

This is abrupt, but important. Harrassment and abuse are crimes. They should be judged and investigated like all other crimes and that fact that we, as a society, do not is a disgrace. But the goal should be to change that, not to bypass it and turn it into some personal responsability thing where the victim must take justice by their own hand.

In other words, we are having this conversation because society is failling victims of abuse.

Note: This is a societal thing. This doesn't mean your friend is not shitty. There's a massive difference between "hey I'm going to put this on Twitter" and telling your friends, your local circle or people in a position of authority. And if they look the other way, or dismiss it, it's them who are being shitty. Not you.

You also have to realize that all the stuff you mention can and probably is said to victims, including you. People claim that victims have a mask and that they "say vile things behind people's backs". If you are being bullied, you are already seeing the effects of being "named and shamed".

So one must think. Who does "name and shame" help? Victims of harrassment or the harrassers?

I firmly believe it's not the former. At all.

No, that's totally cool. Honestly, I'm thankful you took the time to type all that out and allow a conversation to take place because it can be hard for me to remove myself from things sometimes and whatever people think of ERA, it's a forum I use so it's an easy place to try and have a discussion. Thank you very much!

I'll mediate on this at the gym. It's actually been super useful for clearing my mind and having time away from distractions.

Erik Twice · Sep 5, 2018

Cry For Mercy said:
No, that's totally cool. Honestly, I'm thankful you took the time to type all that out and allow a conversation to take place because it can be hard for me to remove myself from things sometimes and whatever people think of ERA, it's a forum I use so it's an easy place to try and have a discussion. Thank you very much!

I'll mediate on this at the gym. It's actually been super useful for clearing my mind and having time away from distractions.

You are welcome, Cry, I'm glad you found it helpful.

And yes, distractions and doing your own stuff is extremely important. Try to post less on forums, engage with negativity online and try to do more of the stuff you like or want to do. Helped me a lot too :)

Deleted member 4034 · Sep 5, 2018

It's a weird one.

When I hear bully or abuser, it's easy to picture a grown person who should know better doing it, but it's not that simple black and white instance. As a kid, I was bullied and I bullied (to a lesser extent). Just a cycle and me not wanting to be on the bottom.

I get the voiceless wanting to take things into their own hands and shout the names of their bullies, no issue with that, but I do find the mob that follows to be disingenuous at times.

Not too many people seem to care about the cycle, stopping that cycle, just so eager to cancel everyone who's done wrong and walk away feeling better about themselves.

But then again, it's hard to talk about this as a whole because everyone has a different story. My bullies pushed me and stole my stuff from time to time. Other people got stabbed with pencils. Those are two different things.

I don't hold a grudge 10 years later, but it's wrong to expect everyone else not to.

And then we get to actual adult bullies and abusers and I'm already too exhausted to continue talking about this.

Parthenios · Sep 5, 2018

Everyone should read "So You've Been Publicly Shamed."

It was written about shame mobs a few years before the rise of Trump, but essentially predicts that internet mob mentality would eventually lead to someone like Trump. The only way to combat public shaming is to be absolutely shameless and never admit wrongdoing or apologize, ever, and that's what we've got in Trump. Even look at Sean Spicer and Sarah Huckabee Sanders and why she's been "more effective." He would get visibly embarrassed by his nonsense where she powers through and never acknowledges wrongdoing.

The Pharmercy · Sep 5, 2018

Parthenios said:
Everyone should read "So You've Been Publicly Shamed."

It was written about shame mobs a few years before the rise of Trump, but essentially predicts that internet mob mentality would eventually lead to someone like Trump. The only way to combat public shaming is to be absolutely shameless and never admit wrongdoing or apologize, ever, and that's what we've got in Trump. Even look at Sean Spicer and Sarah Huckabee Sanders and why she's been "more effective." He would get visibly embarrassed by his nonsense where she powers through and never acknowledges wrongdoing.

That kinda blows my mind but seems so obvious. No one I tend to chat with or hang out with really continues to socialize with this person and I've since blocked their number to stop hate-texts.

Shit is painful and will take time to move on from but not much else you can do. I sawa video essay by Fryda Wolff, a voice actor, and she mentioned things like being your own favourite boss and being the kind of person you needed when you were younger/in pain.

It's one of those things that seems poetic but is actually quite good to work towards. No one ever said it was easy but if people have hurt you, whether you're a kid or an adult, the best thing you can probably do is taking care of yourself and proving whatever happened doesn't define you.

Should Bullies/Abusers be publicly named & shamed?

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