The most hated person in Britain is a boring old man

tulpa · Sep 5, 2018

Autodidact said:
He views the most successful free trading bloc in the world - one that has not only kept the continent from being engulfed in war for 70 years but has brought great economic prosperity - as an evil neoliberal conspiracy.

Evidence?

Autodidact said:
He very likely voted for Brexit despite being aware of the damage it will cause

Evidence?

Autodidact said:
He made no effort on behalf of the Remain campaign.

Ah right. All those TV interviews and stump speeches never happened. Got it.

Autodidact said:
No, just part of that old subset of loonies who see the ~~Soviet Union~~ Russia as some benevolent socialist state driven to its own brutal imperialism by the hateful west and whose entire ideology hinges on being reflexively anti-American and anti-west

I'm beginning to realize your strategy, and it's a very effective one. You never have to debate someone's argument if you just make up things that they haven't actually said and argue against those instead.

Autodidact said:
They want "reconciliation" with Russia despite the latter being a white supremacist authoritarian mafia state with nukes.

OK. By that logic, the UK should sanction the United States and scale back its cooperation with that other white supremacist authoritarian mafia state with nukes-- you know, the led by the cryptofascist Trump. I'm assuming you're in favor of that?

Wackamole · Sep 5, 2018

Effnine said:
Those newspapers look like grocery aisle tabloid trash.

They are worse. The worst in the world.

dude · Sep 5, 2018

Mama Robotnik said:
A lot of people don't think he has. A lot of people don't agree that he presents "an existential threat to Jewish people" and secretly intends a genocide ala Hitler. Because that's what "existential" refers to. And that is what has been printed.

It seems to me like there's a bit of a range between anti-semitic tendencies and being literally Hitler. I'm not well versed in UK politics, but I'm sure most people accusing him of anti-semitism do not think he's going to start a Holocaust.

tulpa · Sep 5, 2018

APZonerunner said:
The fact is whatever you think of him he's not electable any more (if he ever was), and that means the party needs to get him out of the leadership and reposition itself to be more electable, even if that means a shuffle back towards the center. Right now what Britain needs is strong opposition to May's government, and Corbyn isn't providing it. Simple as.

I know, so unelectable

Mama Robotnik · Sep 5, 2018

dude said:
It seems to me like there's a bit of a range between anti-semitic tendencies and being literally Hitler. I'm not well versed in UK politics, but I'm sure most people accusing him of anti-semitism do not think he's going to start a Holocaust.

But that's the point of the the thread. The newspapers have literally printed exactly that to their readers- there is an image of this in the OP.

Vault · Sep 5, 2018

Well he is an Arsenal fan

He also talks and acts like he's from same planet as the rest of us

Unlike the Etonian lizard people in the Tory party

Deleted member 4021 · Sep 5, 2018

Centrists hate leftists far, far more than they ever will fascists.

Deleted member 18324 · Sep 5, 2018

APZonerunner said:
The fact is whatever you think of him he's not electable any more (if he ever was), and that means the party needs to get him out of the leadership and reposition itself to be more electable, even if that means a shuffle back towards the center. Right now what Britain needs is strong opposition to May's government, and Corbyn isn't providing it. Simple as.

Hard to think of a more perfect list of garbage talking points that are repeated ad nauseum. If the (self-described) centre was "electable" and what people are after then it would be easy for "the centre" to oust Corbyn through any of its constant attempts to do so. Of course "the centre" of the Labour party articulate absolutely nothing about where they are substantively different from Corbyn on policy, and Labour's manifesto under Corbyn is nothing more than extremely mild social democracy as practiced by any number of centre and centre left European governments. It's just a tautology, he's unelectable because a tiny minority of people in the Westminster political/media human centipede keep repeating the phrase "he's unelectable" like a mantra.

Perhaps the self-described centre should have a think about why nobody is buying what they have to sell? Also, if they are actually interested in winning elections, why did they, in the immediate aftermath of Brexit, make an utterly feeble attempt at a coup at a time when it would have been utterly easy to win power?

Deleted member 18951 · Sep 5, 2018

What's his opinion on Brexit? lol

ISOM · Sep 5, 2018

Branduil said:
Centrists hate leftists far, far more than they ever will fascists.

You're not lying. It's true in the states as well.

tulpa · Sep 5, 2018

Bits N Pieces said:
What's his opinion on Brexit? lol

He's been critical of EU policy for many years, but he opposed Brexit and campaigned for remain. But he says he accepts the result for now, while pushing for a soft Brexit that would keep the UK within a customs union with the EU. He hasn't ruled out membership of the single market like Norway or a potential second referendum in the future.

Dan · Sep 5, 2018

Bits N Pieces said:
What's his opinion on Brexit? lol

Something like this:

dude · Sep 5, 2018

Mama Robotnik said:
But that's the point of the the thread. The newspapers have literally printed exactly that to their readers- there is an image of this in the OP.

"Existential threat" does not necessarily mean genocide. It means Jews leaving the country (like in France, where more and more Jewish people are leaving) for example. I'm not trying to defend the press here, and that term is very much hyperbolic, but it still doesn't read as "he's going to kill the Jews" to me.

Nephtis · Sep 5, 2018

RustyNails said:
He did gave us Gif of the Century

I can't stop laughing at this

did he actually hit her boob?

Stop It · Sep 5, 2018

Mama Robotnik said:
Jeremy Corbyn. He seems to be a boring old socialist. Not very media savvy. Commited to socialist values. Somewhat Eurosceptic. Struggles to consolidate the broad range of backstabbing in his political party. Pacificist peacenik.
Over his career he met some unpleasant people and attended events with them in order to try and find common ground and advocate peace, as per his pacficist worldview.

Boring old man. Grows his own vegetables. That's all.

But then, this:

I've never seen anything like this in the media - absolute unrelenting hatred towards a single man, without consequence, for years now.

To give this some context for those not familiar with UK politics - in 2015, the Labour Party (the opposition to the government) had a leadership contest. The Labour party members caused an upset by electing a boring old socialist called Jeremy Corbyn into the role.

The man was an outsider to establishment politics, having never served in high office. His career as a backbench MP was colourful, he was once arrested for protesting against racism:

Ever since he became Labour leader, he has been on the front pages of the newspapers every week. So far, there have been news reports that have informed readers the following:

He was a Czech secret agent

He was a Soviet secret agent

He was an IRA agent and/or collaborator

He was a Hamas collaborator

He was an ISIS and/or Al-Queda jihadi comrade

He was apparently all of these, all at once. Simultaneously working for two foreign governments and four unallied militant organisations.

He has also reportedly done or is doing the following:

Bowed to the Queen for money

Hates the Queen

Refused to bow to the Queen

Stole sandwiches from war veterans

Danced over the graves of war veterans in front of other war veterans

Maliciously ran over a journalist

Killed a rabbit with a pogo stick on Christmas Day

Rides a Chairman Mao Communist Bicycle

Got bloody hands from IRA bombings

Sold state secrets

Is currently line managed by Putin

Won't launch nukes in completely hypothetical situations

Didn't sing when the national anthem was played

Once stood up on a train when there were no seats left (yes, this was actually a big thing)

Is an existential threat to all Jewish life.

As an aside, the London School of Economics and Political Science published the study Journalistic Representations of Jeremy Corbyn in the British Press (2016, Dr Bart Cammaerts, Brooks DeCillia, João Carlos Magalhães, Dr Cesar Jimenez-Martinez). This found that 75% of all stories about Jeremy Corbyn in the British media actively misrepresented his position.

So there you go. The entire media machine of the UK and its unyielding, endless hate for a single boring old man.

Wonder if it will work?

Note - Its okay to disagree with his politics or his leadership style, of course. Its okay to question his policies and views and competency. But rather than debate and discussion, does anyone else think that the above is, well, a bit much?

Having the right wing press hate you is a badge of honour and doesn't make him the most hated man in the UK.

Hell, put him against Rees Mogg and watch the polls turn against the latter, hard.

He's marmite, and has a hard cap of approx 40% of the electorate, but he's loved as much as he's hated.

tulpa if you're trying to deny that Corbyn isn't an old leftist who voted against Lisbon, against the ESM, opposed Maastricht, voted against joining?

Because it's all public record. He's an old Bennite and hates the EU as much as Johnson does. He may have officially backed remain for the referendum, reading the room as young Labour voters who back him are overwhelmingly pro Remain but he's more enthusiastic about leaving than May.

H.Protagonist · Sep 5, 2018

I have wondered about this all since I've moved to the UK. I haven't delved into the politics here too much since I can't vote, but every day seems like some kind of anti-Corbyn effort on the news or in the papers. What I have seen of him when he speaks and hearing about what he (purports) to stand for, he seems kind of like an all right guy, though. It's a bit confusing.

Vault said:
Well he is an Arsenal fan

Never mind. He's the obviously devil. :D

Vault · Sep 5, 2018

Hilarious the Daily Mail smearing Corbyn about being anti Semitic

When they supported the Nazi's

Mama Robotnik · Sep 5, 2018

dude said:
"Existential threat" does not necessarily mean genocide. It means Jews leaving the country (like in France, where more and more Jewish people are leaving) for example. I'm not trying to defend the press here, and that term is very much hyperbolic, but it still doesn't read as "he's going to kill the Jews" to me.

A threat to their "existence", for this group of people, in the context of Europe, evokes the horrors of history and links him unfairly to those horrors. The newspapers knew it would when they published it.

The headline that he is now an "existential threat" is a headline that says he is a threat to their existence. Most people only see the headline, take in its bite sized message, and it contributes to the increasingly smeared perspective of this boring old anti-racism campaigner.

Deleted member 18951 · Sep 5, 2018

tulpa said:
He's been critical of EU policy for many years, but he opposed Brexit and campaigned for remain. But he says he accepts the result for now, while pushing for a soft Brexit that would keep the UK within a customs union with the EU. He hasn't ruled out membership of the single market like Norway or a potential second referendum in the future.

He campaigned for Remain? I must have missed that afternoon, lol.

Dan said:
Something like this:

Now that's more like it!

Rotobit · Sep 5, 2018

The attempts by people inside the party to oust him are incredibly transparent, he's still bringing in record numbers of new Labour members I believe so it's clearly not working very well

I feel like a lot of Labour would rather lose the next election by opening themselves up for blatantly false hit-pieces rather than let him win, which is a bit depressing

on the brighter side

Goodlifr · Sep 5, 2018

Bits N Pieces said:
What's his opinion on Brexit? lol

Not black and white (shocker)

Not a massive fan of the EU, for various reasons, but would have preferred to stay in and change.

Doesn't like the Brexit the Tories are doing, worried they are trying to turn the UK into a tax haven for the rich and screw over the workers.

Thinks that the result of the referendum should be honored.

Doctor_Thomas · Sep 5, 2018

The idea that Corbyn isn't a Eurosceptic amuses the life out of me.

His voting record on membership speaks volumes.

A lot of Remainers lent their votes during the last GE because of the ambiguity of his stance and he was happy to let people think what they wanted.

The smear jobs and antisemitism claims are the right wing fear in paper form, but don't pretend he's pro-EU.

Goron2000 · Sep 5, 2018

Once again we find ourselves confusing anti-zionism with anti-semetism. Israel are committing genocide while the world sits back and watches. Jeremy has come out against zionist imperialism and is now being smeared as a lesson to all.

tulpa · Sep 5, 2018

Stop It said:
tulpa if you're trying to deny that Corbyn isn't an old leftist who voted against Lisbon, against the ESM, opposed Maastricht, voted against joining?

No, I'm not denying that. But this position is nothing unusual among left-wing Eurosceptics. Look at Yanis Varoufakis, the former finance minister of Greece. Deeply critical of the EU and he was against Greece joining, but he's not in favor of Grexit or Brexit. Because leaving after decades of political and economic integration is a very different thing than never joining in the first place. There's no question that disentangling the UK from the single market will produce near-catastrophic economic results. It's perfectly consistent to oppose having joined, but also to oppose breaking up the union decades after it has already formed.

Stop It said:
Because it's all public record. He's an old Bennite and hates the EU as much as Johnson does. He may have officially backed remain for the referendum, reading the room as young Labour voters who back him are overwhelmingly pro Remain but he's more enthusiastic about leaving than May.

There's just no evidence of that. Sure, he's been against EU policy. But if he was so enthusiastic for leaving, why isn't he ruling out a second referendum? Why does he support customs union? You don't understand the nuance of this left position on the EU at all. The idea is that the EU is a deeply flawed organization that, on its current course, is headed for great difficulty, but that the solution is to refurbish it and reforge the social democratic nature of the European project, rather than disintegrate it.

Deleted member 11370 · Sep 5, 2018

Kahoots said:
The media should be hostile towards politicians.

I would love for you to clarify what you mean by this. Seeing all the covers about Corbyn reminds me of the National Enquire's treatment of Hillary:

If that's what you want out of the press... I'm sorry, buddy, but you got it wrong. This is trash of the higest caliber.

Stop It · Sep 5, 2018

Vault said:
Hilarious the Daily Mail smearing Corbyn about being anti Semitic

When they supported the Nazi's

Irony is not something the Daily Mail are specialised in, they're just that delusional.

There's plenty of reasons to want the new Labour left to be represented by someone who isn't steeped in the history of the old left and actually represents the generation who supports the Platform Corbyn has presented. However saying that Corbyn isn't the right person to take us into a future that takes us back towards social democracy that works for all, especially the cohort left behind by neoliberalism apparently makes me right wing scum, or something.

Doctor_Thomas · Sep 5, 2018

tulpa said:
But if he was so enthusiastic for leaving, why isn't he ruling out a second referendum?

He already did...

"We are not supporting or calling for a second referendum."

As well as "The single market is dependent on membership of the European Union"

3bdelilah · Sep 5, 2018

The man's a national treasure. One of the very few politicians in the world I find myself aligning with in pretty much all aspects.

Stop It · Sep 5, 2018

tulpa said:
No, I'm not denying that. But this position is nothing unusual among left-wing Eurosceptics. Look at Yanis Varoufakis, the former finance minister of Greece. Deeply critical of the EU and he was against Greece joining, but he's not in favor of Grexit or Brexit. Because leaving after decades of political and economic integration is a very different thing than never joining in the first place. There's no question that disentangling the UK from the single market will produce near-catastrophic economic results. It's perfectly consistent to oppose having joined, but also to oppose breaking up the union decades after it has already formed.

There's just no evidence of that. Sure, he's been against EU policy. But if he was so enthusiastic for leaving, why isn't he ruling out a second referendum? Why does he support customs union? You don't understand the nuance of this left position on the EU at all. The idea is that the EU is a deeply flawed organization that, on its current course, is headed for great difficulty, but that the solution is to refurbish it and reforge the social democratic nature of the European project, rather than disintegrate it.

He didn't support the UK staying in the customs union until February.

He has shifted after huge pressure from Momentum groups saying that their members did not want the hard Brexit with the Labour rose attached that was pitched to begin with.

Remember he backed Article 50, and agreed that we needed to leave the EU asap despite opposition at the time.

He has ruled out a second referendum.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-42681929

Also I had to do research reports on the Greek financial crisis and I'm more than au fait with Varoufakis. He was fun, I miss him. I won't go into detail but I wish Corbyn was as competent as him!

Also the charge that I do not understand the old lefts policy on Europe because I disagree with it is as hilarious as it is baseless.

sfortunato · Sep 5, 2018

I don't understand why the press should make up stories to smear him. I think his position on many issues (Russia, Jewish people, Europe) would be enough to make him look totally unreliable.

He was asked 5 times by a journalist whether he thought Brexit would have negative effects on British economy and wasn't able to answer.

tulpa · Sep 5, 2018

Doctor_Thomas said:
He already did...

"We are not supporting or calling for a second referendum."

As well as "The single market is dependent on membership of the European Union"

No. Crucially, they said that we are not supporting a second referendum at the moment, but that we do not rule it out. Many interviewers and pundits have specifically asked him if he rules it out and he has only said that their current policy does not support one. His shadow Brexit secretary has made it clear that all options are on the table.

Stop It said:
He didn't support the UK staying in the customs union until February.

He has shifted after huge pressure from Momentum groups saying that their members did not want the hard Brexit with the Labour rose attached that was pitched to begin with.

I think you're reversing the timeline here. There hasn't been pressure from official Momentum, and the pressure from some people affiliated with Momentum mostly came after the customs union policy. But yes, political parties develop their policy over time.

Stop It said:
He has ruled out a second referendum.

No. Read my above reply, but you must read his and Starmer's words carefully. They have said that they do not currently support it and it is not their policy. They explicitly haven't ruled it out in the future and they abstained on the EEA. Now, I'm critical of that: I think they should be clear about supporting the single market and the EEA and move in that direction. But I understand why his position is so difficult: sometimes it's best not to interrupt your opponents while they are tearing themselves apart over the issue.

Stop It said:
Also I had to do research reports on the Greek financial crisis and I'm more than au fait with Varoufakis. He was fun, I miss him. I won't go into detail but I wish Corbyn was as competent as him!

Well, you should listen to his recent interview with STV. He couldn't be more effusive about Corbyn and his policies. Yanis is a great admirer of his and constantly defends his leadership, although he too wants to see Labour move toward EEA/single market membership.

dude · Sep 5, 2018

Mama Robotnik said:
A threat to their "existence", for this group of people, in the context of Europe, evokes the horrors of history and links him unfairly to those horrors. The newspapers knew it would when they published it.

The headline that he is now an "existential threat" is a headline that says he is a threat to their existence. Most people only see the headline, take in its bite sized message, and it contributes to the increasingly smeared perspective of this boring old anti-racism campaigner.

Well, I'm not going to argue about how that line could be read by people in the UK - I don't live there and I'm not familiar enough with the culture. I just can't see anyone actually thinking Corbyn is going to start up Jewish death camps, even when using the term "existential threat". I am Jewish, and in the modern day when I think about "existential threat to Jewish life" in the western world it's more about the existence of a Jewish community than people straight up gathering Jews for the massacre.

astro · Sep 5, 2018

RellikSK said:
Honestly fuck Corbyn. I don't think he is a anti-semite but his handling of the whole situation has been terrible showing he isn't fit to lead the party. Why the fuck does the IHRA definition of anti-semitism need to be debated when every other party and many other countries agree to it? He has shown weak leadership throughout this whole thing and hasn't acted swiftly enough. We need a strong opposition, a party that unequivocally backs a people's vote. The Tories are in shambles, Labour should be destroying them in the pollls. And yes I agree the media is bias against him and the conservatives are worse but that is why he needs to show strong leadership.

Nope.

The fact you've bought inio the right wing propaganda that he's a "weak leader" is the problem.

He is not.

Septic · Sep 5, 2018

KillstealWolf said:
That's a weird way to spell Nigel Farage.

Haha came for this

Otherist · Sep 5, 2018

This is exactly what awaits any genuine left-wing politician who comes within spitting distance of power here. It's desperate, absurd, and only going to get worse. It hasn't succeeded in getting rid of Corbyn or his agenda, but it's succeeded in intensifying the polarisation of local reality, so the people who were never going to vote for him now also believe he's a monster who must be cast into the fires of hell. Our media is a terrifying vacuum of inequality.

Prattle · Sep 5, 2018

RellikSK said:
Honestly fuck Corbyn. I don't think he is a anti-semite but his handling of the whole situation has been terrible showing he isn't fit to lead the party. Why the fuck does the IHRA definition of anti-semitism need to be debated when every other party and many other countries agree to it? He has shown weak leadership throughout this whole thing and hasn't acted swiftly enough. We need a strong opposition, a party that unequivocally backs a people's vote. The Tories are in shambles, Labour should be destroying them in the pollls. And yes I agree the media is bias against him and the conservatives are worse but that is why he needs to show strong leadership.

Because even the person who wrote the IHRA says they wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Adopting things because someone says you should is not a good thing to do.

None of the other parties have intergrated the IHRA definitions as deeply as Labour did yesterday.

Stop It · Sep 5, 2018

tulpa said:
No. Crucially, they said that we are not supporting a second referendum at the moment, but that we do not rule it out. Many interviewers and pundits have specifically asked him if he rules it out and he has only said that their current policy does not support one. His shadow Brexit secretary has made it clear that all options are on the table.

I think you're reversing the timeline here. There hasn't been pressure from official Momentum, and the pressure from some people affiliated with Momentum mostly came after the customs union policy. But yes, political parties develop their policy over time.

No. Read my above reply, but you must read his and Starmer's words carefully. They have said that they do not currently support it and it is not their policy. They explicitly haven't ruled it out in the future and they abstained on the EEA. Now, I'm critical of that: I think they should be clear about supporting the single market and the EEA and move in that direction. But I understand why his position is so difficult: sometimes it's best not to interrupt your opponents while they are tearing themselves apart over the issue.

Well, you should listen to his recent interview with STV. He couldn't be more effusive about Corbyn and his policies. Yanis is a great admirer of his and constantly defends his leadership, although he too wants to see Labour move toward EEA/single market membership.

I do not believe that Corbyn should be equivocating while the membership want a People's Vote on the final deal and ultimately do not believe we should be leaving the EU at all.

However I don't hate him and understand the current anti semitism row is far more nuanced than the shrill cries from the right wing press.

However I firmly believe we need a young leadership just like Syriza. I'll seek out that interview but I would doubt Varoufakis would oppose moving the platform to the new left just as they had, dropping the baggage of a Bennite like Corbyn.

Brown Intruder · Sep 5, 2018

The smear campaign is incredible.

Lidl · Sep 5, 2018

Project smear is the commie and purity obsessed left's version of project fear.

Prattle · Sep 5, 2018

Autodidact said:
He views the most successful free trading bloc in the world - one that has not only kept the continent from being engulfed in war for 70 years but has brought great economic prosperity - as an evil neoliberal conspiracy.

He very likely voted for Brexit despite being aware of the damage it will cause. He made no effort on behalf of the Remain campaign.

His views contradict the 70% of his party that wants to remain in the EU, but somehow he and his inner circle have gamed the leadership system to remain in power.

Is he this nefarious character he's portrayed as? Probably not. But he's an idiot with some backward views who should not be leading the Labour Party.

And I don't see how anyone can defend the leader of a center-left party adopting right-wing talking points on immigration.

'Neoliberal Conspiracy'

Fancy name for the free marketeers who give no shits about whose back they make their money on.

Entryhazard · Sep 5, 2018

cartoon_soldier said:
Maybe it's because he has shown anti-Semitism tendencies...

Is this the usual "opposing Israel = anti-Semitism"?

MadJakeChurchill · Sep 5, 2018

Kahoots said:
The media should be hostile towards politicians.

Equally hostile. And representative of facts.

How in the fuck is Corbyn an ISIS sympathiser, or a bloody Czech secret agent? The fakest of fake news.

xbhaskarx · Sep 5, 2018

tulpa said:
I know, so unelectable

Is barely squeaking ahead of the Conservatives all that impressive? I mean they're about the lead the country off a cliff. And when they do, Corbyn won't even be able to say "I told you so" because every statement he makes regarding Brexit is so wishy washy.

Wilson · Sep 5, 2018

He's fucking hopeless, but he's not the terrorist loving anti-semite Russian agent that the BBC / Daily Mail would have you believe. And he's nowhere near as hated as Alex Salmond is.

Goodlifr · Sep 5, 2018

xbhaskarx said:
Is barely squeaking ahead of the Conservatives all that impressive? I mean they're about the lead the country off a cliff. And when they do, Corbyn won't even be able to say "I told you so" because every statement he makes regarding Brexit is so wishy washy.

It's massively impressive with the constant shit he gets from the media.

Look at the poll numbers during the GE campaign, when the media has to be less bias and actually report on facts more... when he's able to get his message out people like what he's saying.

danm999 · Sep 5, 2018

xbhaskarx said:
Is barely squeaking ahead of the Conservatives all that impressive? I mean they're about the lead the country off a cliff. And when they do, Corbyn won't even be able to say "I told you so" because every statement he makes regarding Brexit is so wishy washy.

I mean, if that result holds he'll be more successful than Ed Milliband or Gordon Brown.

Autodidact · Sep 5, 2018

tulpa said:
Evidence?

Oh Jesus. He's opposed the EU since the days of the Common Market - voted against membership in '75 even before he joined Parliament, voted against the treaties, voted against establishing the supranational institutions associated with it. Those votes are public record and have been widely discussed, so if you want to see links to them you can go read the Hansard your damn self. I will, however, link to statements he made concerning the Treaty of Maastricht in '93:

Ahead of the 1993 adoption of the EU's founding Maastricht Treaty Mr Corbyn warned that the creation of the currency's European Central Bank would undermine European countries' ability to set their own policy.

"The whole basis of the Maastricht treaty is the establishment of a European Central Bank, which is staffed by bankers, independent of national governments and national economic policies, and whose sole policy is the maintenance of price stability," he said.

"That will undermine any social objective that any Labour Government in the United Kingdom—or any other Government—would wish to carry out."

His statements support my assertions. He feared that the EU would subvert "social objectives" - in other words, social democracy or even socialism - by supplanting national governments with remote, shadowy bankers only intent on maintaining free markets... which sounds a lot like the neoliberalism about which people always wail. As I mentioned, that view is stupid considering the original purpose of the European Communities, the aversion of hostility, and the prosperity it's brought the continent.

And I bet he thought he was being real cute with that "bankers" dog whistle even back in the day.

tulpa said:
Evidence?

You know, I'll concede that I've never been in the jam pot or the voting booth with the man. For all I know, he might have eagerly voted Remain. But a lifetime of opposing the EU and its institutions, as well as opinions from people who know him, must carry some weight.

Read the article. His own damn brother attributes his Remain support to "party management." In other words, he knew that 70% of the Labour Party supported Remain - still does! - and had to be seen outwardly supporting it despite his beliefs. Though I guess his brother might be one of those diabolical centrists who love to enable the fascists

tulpa said:
Ah right. All those TV interviews and stump speeches never happened. Got it.

See above. Also:

This leads to me to the greatest betrayal and the final straw for many MPs. I have been told and shown evidence by an overwhelming number of unimpeachably neutral Labour remain staff that Corbyn's office, for which he must take full responsibility, consistently attempted to weaken and sabotage the Labour remain campaign, in contravention of the party's official position. For example, they resisted all polling and focus group evidence on message and tone, raised no campaign finance, failed to engage with the campaign delivery and deliberately weakened and damaged the argument Laboursought to make.

Corbyn made only a smattering of campaign appearances, and they were lacklustre in delivery and critical of the EU in tone resulting in Labour voters not knowing the party's position or hearing our argument. Corbyn's infrequent campaign appearances and narrow focus, in turned limited the party's appeal. He kept saying that the economic shock of Brexit was not real. It is. And it is working people and Labour communities that will pay the price. A price that is being felt right now.

He claimed to support Remain because he had to in his position, but he offered only feeble support and denied invaluable help and resources to the campaign. What conviction! Let's also not forget that he called for the invocation of Article 50 what seemed about five minutes after the results had been announced.

As regards Russia, after Ukraine was INVADED and part of it FORCIBLY ANNEXED by Russia, he criticized the US and NATO:

Agreements Gorbachov reached before the final demise of the Soviet Union and subsequent pledges that Ukraine's independence would not see it brought into Nato or any other military alliance appear to have been forgotten by Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen in his increasingly bellicose statements.

He seems to miss that Ukraine and other former Eastern Bloc countries have sought to join NATO to protect their national sovereignty and territorial integrity; they want refuge from Russian aggression and revanchism. But here he completely ignores the issue of Ukraine's sovereignty and self-determination in favor of the verbal equivalent of a shoulder shrug: "Well, it's bad, but Gorbachev and NATO DID agree that Ukraine would never join..." Even worse, he criticizes NATO and the western alliance's "[bellicosity]" when Ukraine voluntarily applied to join NATO and Russia engaged in the bellicose behavior. That is old loony left gaslighting of the highest order.

But there's more:

On Ukraine, I would not condone Russian behaviour or expansion. But it is not unprovoked, and the right of people to seek a federal structure or independence should not be denied.

Just straight-up victim blaming.

And no one has told me why this progressive left-winger has adopted right-wing talking points on immigration. The "protecting our jobs" rhetoric is just as racist and xenophobic there as it is when Trump says it here. But I guess you can say anything if you're defending the magical ~~~working class~~~, those brain trusts who voted to fuck themselves over by voting Leave, from the evil EU and its shadowy ~~~bankers~~~ and/or Muslims, depending on the flavor of bigotry your audience prefers.

I do not make things up. I do not argue without receipts. And I do not like or respect this dumb man who'd jeopardize his country's economic future because he thinks he'll be able to create some workers' utopia from the scrap heaps of the ruined husk of a country.

xbhaskarx · Sep 5, 2018

Autodidact said:
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Wow... and not one link to the Daily Mail.

Deleted member 13364 · Sep 5, 2018

People in power don't hate him. They're afraid of the policies he'd bring in, and because they can't effectively counter the policies, they have to attack the man.

ReplacementPelican · Sep 5, 2018

dude said:
"Existential threat" does not necessarily mean genocide. It means Jews leaving the country (like in France, where more and more Jewish people are leaving) for example. I'm not trying to defend the press here, and that term is very much hyperbolic, but it still doesn't read as "he's going to kill the Jews" to me.

Not to me but you must know that's how it's supposed to come across.

The most hated person in Britain is a boring old man

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