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Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
A lot of people saw this comparison as a clear downgrade:

So I took a hard look at it on a monitor, and found that the only differences I could spot pointed to upgrades.

I know some people really saw the downgarde in this roof jumping gif tho. Long shadows? Dramatic sunrise coloring? What is is that tricked so many?
This one is interesting.

I do agree that the E3 2016 trailer looks quite different in a lot of ways - hard to say better or worse but it's definitely different.

What I wanted to say when this was mentioned, though, is that the dusk time of day DOES exist in the final game which made some elements of this comparison useless. I wonder where that scene IS in the final game as I haven't run into it and am 50% of the way through.

The details at a distance are what stands out to me. The 2018 version blurs a lot of the ground level stuff (trees, cars, etc), which would most likely be a power-related issue.
I'm not sure that's accurate either. They depth of field is used in cut-scenes but not during the game. We know traffic density is quite high in the final game but also random. That area wouldn't have blur while playing. We also know that depth of field is a post-processing effect which would require some additional processing power AND the game runs at a higher resolution than older builds.
 

Memento

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,129
LMAO so it is actually a significant upgrade from the E3 demo

Oh internet... when will you learn
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
Was considering cancelling my order for the game since I get a ton of games and never get around to them, but watching this it saved my decision to get it and play.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,111
Dear Every Console Developer.

sAe3B6H.png

MAKE A MENU IDENTICAL TO THIS!!!

I will turn those all off in a heartbeat, with the potential to put blur at 1 or 2.
Co-signed.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,583
Am I crazy, or is the footage at 3:20 not a pretty massive spoiler? I hadn't seen that before...

Could've used a spoiler warning at the beginning guys. I know it's a 30 minute video, but I assumed you would just be using the same content that we've seen so far.
 

Bunta

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,270
I tend to disable motion blur but the video convinced me to keep it on. Makes sense for a Spider-Man game.
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
User Warned - Thread Derailment
He mentioned the shadow boxes used in the puddle room were more fine tuned in the E3 2017 demo, not that the entire room looked better.
Yes, but the puddles and the reflections in them were the starting point of that entire thread, hence the repeated mocking thread title changes about puddles.

Yeah, aesthetically. It technically wasn't a downgrade at all, that's the point. Puddles use the same kind of reflection technique that was used in the E3 demo, and there are still plenty of puddles and reflections in the final game. It was an artistic choice to change the cube map texture and add/remove/move puddles around to adjust.
What started this entire conversation was people noticing that the puddles had been reduced and the reflections within them looked less impressive, and that ended up being true.

Whether or not they were technically downgraded seems irrelevant. The point I'm making is that there was reason to discuss those comparison images last week, when the response from this forum was a loud and angry "nothing to see here! Move along idiots trying to hate on this game!".

There was something to see there, it just turns out it wasn't an overarching downgrade, and of course there were some people trying to argue that was the case. But there were also plenty of people just saying what turned out to be true, the E3 2017 puddles/reflections did look better.
 

Byron Hinson

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,018
UK
Ah, unfortunately, there is not. Just a brightness adjustment. On my particular set (C8 OLED) it looks fantastic *BUT* I could see issues arises depending on how your TV deals with it. It's definitely not the best example. We'll be releasing an HDR video this Thursday as well, by the way.
Yeah real shame as anything below the C8 will be dim again without this. Guess injection is the only way ahead
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,503
Yes, but the puddles and the reflections in them were the starting point of that entire thread, hence the repeated mocking thread title changes about puddles.


What started this entire conversation was people noticing that the puddles had been reduced and the reflections within them looked less impressive, and that ended up being true.

Whether or not they were technically downgraded seems irrelevant. The point I'm making is that there was reason to discuss those comparison images last week, when the response from this forum was a loud and angry "nothing to see here! Move along idiots trying to hate on this game!".

There was something to see there, it just turns out it wasn't an overarching downgrade, and of course there were some people trying to argue that was the case. But there were also plenty of people just saying what turned out to be true, the E3 2017 puddles/reflections did look better.

How was that irrelevant?This is what caused a good amount of the arguments in the original thread, people arguing for a downgrade and those against.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,312
It's hilarious that this game had a downgrade controversy when it was clearly upgraded.

It might be time to take a walk down that thread for old time's sake.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Yes, but the puddles and the reflections in them were the starting point of that entire thread, hence the repeated mocking thread title changes about puddles.


What started this entire conversation was people noticing that the puddles had been reduced and the reflections within them looked less impressive, and that ended up being true.

Whether or not they were technically downgraded seems irrelevant. The point I'm making is that there was reason to discuss those comparison images last week, when the response from this forum was a loud and angry "nothing to see here! Move along idiots trying to hate on this game!".

There was something to see there, it just turns out it wasn't an overarching downgrade, and of course there were some people trying to argue that was the case. But there were also plenty of people just saying what turned out to be true, the E3 2017 puddles/reflections did look better.
Whether or not you personally were, there were plenty of people using that one single puddle as an example of how the game must have been tuned down for final release because it couldn't possibly run on real hardware. You can't rewrite that narrative. We have dozens of pages of stupid shit on here and reddit to prove it.
 

PlayBee

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 8, 2017
5,533
It's sad that all this puddle outrage necessitated such a large focus in this video (not a knock on DF)
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
The details at a distance are what stands out to me. The 2018 version blurs a lot of the ground level stuff (trees, cars, etc), which would most likely be a power-related issue.

The details in the distance are completely blown out by post dof-effect. You can hardly see anything about them.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,611
Sweet mother of god. I figured the folks flipping out were just being fucking idiots and its nice to see some proof. I remember the image comparing some old screen shots to new on here and thinking "This looks...better?" So I don't know how these people came to this downgrade conclusion based on one screemshot or whatever. God damn the wait until friday is going to be killer. I have DQ11 but waiting on some kind of pc music fix lol
 
OP
OP
zombiejames

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,921
What started this entire conversation was people noticing that the puddles had been reduced and the reflections within them looked less impressive, and that ended up being true.

Whether or not they were technically downgraded seems irrelevant. The point I'm making is that there was reason to discuss those comparison images last week, when the response from this forum was a loud and angry "nothing to see here! Move along idiots trying to hate on this game!".

There was something to see there, it just turns out it wasn't an overarching downgrade, and of course there were some people trying to argue that was the case. But there were also plenty of people just saying what turned out to be true, the E3 2017 puddles/reflections did look better.

So all the downgrade talk over the past week wasn't about downgrades? It was about aesthetics?

j02OvqJ.jpg
 

TotalMackerel

Member
Oct 26, 2017
662
Really amazing work from Insomniac and analysis from Dark1x. Awesome to see a little bit of how they worked their magic. The final results look incredible.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,641
The details at a distance are what stands out to me. The 2018 version blurs a lot of the ground level stuff (trees, cars, etc), which would most likely be a power-related issue.

A lot of people replied that adding DoF like blurring ground level stuff and background is more taxing on the hardware, not less. But you never replied to any of them.
 

Cloud-Hidden

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,987
It's probably too late, but I do want to warn potential viewers that there are somewhat-significant story spoilers in the video.
 

Darklor01

Member
Nov 2, 2017
85
I think people keep toggling back and forth between complaining about what is possible with a game using the hardware being used vs. what can be achieved with stronger hardware and amazement of what has been achieved with limited hardware.

This hardware can't do this type of open world gaming with everything else it does and still have extreme or great draw distance and/or clarity. This is not a high end PC. I think they've done a LOT with this hardware.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
I think DF got one thing wrong. It's not a new material setting it looks more like it's missing a subsurface scattering pass on the material.
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
How was that irrelevant?This is what caused a good amount of the arguments in the original thread, people arguing for a downgrade and those against.

Whether or not you personally were, there were plenty of people using that one single puddle as an example of how the game must have been tuned down for final release because it couldn't possibly run on real hardware. You can't rewrite that narrative. We have dozens of pages of stupid shit on here and reddit to prove it.

So all the downgrade talk over the past week wasn't about downgrades? It was about aesthetics?

Downgrade is just a word used to describe things not looking as good. It's a semantics argument at this point. Did the E3 2017 image look better than the 2018 image. That was the genesis of the thread. I will quote from the very first post of that thread.
  • The main contention is over a changed puddle in the Kingpin level and the reflections in said puddle, however, there are also people who feel that Spider-Man's suit textures are a downgrade, or that there are major changes to the interior and exterior lighting, along with a bit of debate about the shadows too.
The end result was the puddles/reflections in the 2017 image did look better.
 

o Tesseract

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,542
Just finished the video. I agree that the game is improved overall. Looks gorgeous. Love that motion blur can be toggled.

I appreciate that Dark did a direct comparison of the water room. He does mention toward the end that the puddle room does look better in the E3 build but ultimately that it's due to artistic reasons vs technical ones. I agree for the most part.

Regarding the theory about cube maps -- it makes sense to pretty up a demo to make it look incredible. The move to more generic cube maps is understandable (having to hand-create a ton of detailed maps for god knows how many similar scenes would be insane) and explains why the reflections look less detailed. Also explains why they would use a smaller puddle, as the more generic cube maps would be much more obvious with more reflect-able surface.

What I don't agree with is the lighting change being chalked up to being "more realistic". This could just be preference honestly. The direct cast shadows looked more realistic IMO, especially given that you have direct (and bright) light coming in from horizontal and vertical sources. I'm looking around at the office now and see many over-hanging light strips cast shadows on nearby pillars thanks to the direct sunlight coming in from the windows around the room. The scene in the game looks like it has much bigger windows than we have in here, but, alas. No mention of character-cast shadows is kind of a shame, but, you can only fit so much in one video. They do appear less detailed for 2/4 onscreen characters in the scene.

But it doesn't matter! All in all, excellent analysis, and a great looking game. Well done, Insomniac.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
The reflection transitions feel like they could be a little distracting, but not much that can be done without RT, I suppose.

Other than that, it's incredible. Insomniac and Bluepoint don't get as much credit as they deserve for image quality on the Pro. Per pixel motion blur + temporal injection must be the smoothest shit ever.

Also VERY interesting to see that you can indeed support both dynamic resolutions and temporal injection. I wondered if something about the technique required a more stable resolution, and for that reason both Insomniac and Bluepoint went with 1440p before, but it seems like that's not the case at all. Really, I'm starting to wonder why every game doesn't go with that, Shadow of the Colossus in Resolution Mode has an IQ that's just waaaay better than what you'd expect from a 1440p title. Truly remarkable.

Dark1x awesome video, and congratulations for that opening, it was stunning, and I assume a TON of work to make.