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Can a fictional character be redeemed no matter how heinous?

Daniel Westlake

Daniel Westlake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
The general rule I've seen most media is you can get a character redeemed for anything except sexual assault or rape.

And of course that's not like a hard-and-fast rule but generally when I see redemption arcs in any given piece of media that seems to usually hold true.
 
Tino C

Tino C

Alt-Account
Banned
Aug 26, 2018
189
No, why should fictional character receive different treatment.

BTW I don't want to derail this thread, I really thought the way Kyloren kill his father makes him inredeemable. I thought it was a dumb decision to make for the committee who wrote TFA, they basically pushed a gray colored character so far black it made his character arc uninteresting.

I know a lot of people will reply me and say Kyloren is redeemable. Not for me. You guys can embrace him.
 
Pellaidh

Pellaidh

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,175
Well, there was this recent anime show that tried to make you feel sorry for a literal personification of cancer. Which didn't really work at all and left a lot of people very confused, because why the fuck would anyone ever feel bad about curing cancer?

In general, I think most villains can be redeemed, but the writers have to actually try. But in most (anime) shows I've seen that try to redeem their villains it seems like the writers don't even want to bother. So they mostly just throw in a last minute tragic backstory and some sad music. Or they just have the villain do a 100% about face and go from being a completely thrash human to basically Jesus with barely any explanation.
 
Kinsaras

Kinsaras

Member
Aug 10, 2018
142
Surprises me how many people cheer on Jaime Lannister. Guess we forgot that part of tossing a child out of a window and without a care.
 
Z-Beat

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,846
I mean I forgave Regina
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Kinsaras said:
Surprises me how many people cheer on Jaime Lannister. Guess we forgot that part of tossing a child out of a window and without a care.
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This one's probably because Jaime's been walking it back while all of the other shitty characters have just gotten worse (or died) over time.
 
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PSqueak

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Tino C said:
No, why should fictional character receive different treatment.

BTW I don't want to derail this thread, I really thought the way Kyloren kill his father makes him inredeemable. I thought it was a dumb decision to make for the committee who wrote TFA, they basically pushed a gray colored character so far black it made his character arc uninteresting.

I know a lot of people will reply me and say Kyloren is redeemable. Not for me. You guys can embrace him.
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I thought i was interesting how they wrote the scene as Kylo being delusional thinking Han Solo willingly allowed him to do it as an approval of his choices.

Kylo thinking "Daddy let me killed him because he respects my life choices" it's kinda funny and allows him to still feel he made the right choice.
 
Omar310

Omar310

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
UK
Harken Raiser said:
We'll find out once Guts forgives Griffith.

I've never read or watched Berserk.
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That spoiler tag fucking killed me. It also made me realise how I know about stuff I've never actually watched/read/played just through internet memes.

Seriously though, I was wondering if they'd ever be done with that fucking boat, amirite?

I haven't even reached that part lmao
 
Tino C

Tino C

Alt-Account
Banned
Aug 26, 2018
189
Kinsaras said:
Surprises me how many people cheer on Jaime Lannister. Guess we forgot that part of tossing a child out of a window and without a care.
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See GRRM handwaved it by making Bran a Wizard, and the fall is some kind of awaikening event. Also Jaime didn't kill his cousin in the book.
 
Kinsei

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,531
You just have to avoid showing them kill a well liked character. It doesn't matter if they commit genocide so long as the audience doesn't get to know the people that are killed.
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
Kinsaras said:
Surprises me how many people cheer on Jaime Lannister. Guess we forgot that part of tossing a child out of a window and without a care.
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He's a definitively "bad" person, but imo he's got a fascinating arc, and he's emblematic of one of the key themes of the series (duty v.s obligation). He's by far and away my favorite character in the whole series.
 
lazygecko

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
DC/WB is so intent on making Harley Quinn a more "likeable" character, in Injustice everyone basically gives her a pass in spite of being deeply complicit in nuking Metropolis, which not only killed millions but also sparked the chain of events that led to the world becoming a dystopian hellhole.
 
Zero-ELEC

Zero-ELEC

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,564
México
Absolutely not. Not everyone can or should get redeemed.

It's one of the things about Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. handled Ward that I fucking loved. They had all the chances (and fan demand) in the world to redeem Ward but they very explicitly realize that no matter how fucked up his childhood was, how much he was abused he was still a monster working for Nazis.

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John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
Was Vegeta's actions on Namek towards the Namekians ever dealt with again?

I say actions because I can't remember whether he killed any of them or not. I do remember Dende refusing to heal him and Piccolo saying he would answer for his crimes.
 
Lotus

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,814
Zero-ELEC said:
Absolutely not. Not everyone can or should get redeemed.

It's one of the things about Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. handled Ward that I fucking loved. They had all the chances (and fan demand) in the world to redeem Ward but they very explicitly realize that no matter how fucked up his childhood was, how much he was abused he was still a monster working for Nazis.

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Bless you. Pivotal moment in the series haha
 

Deleted member 29660

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
I liked when Vegeta died he still went to hell, no free pass for him! .............until he helped against Buu anyways.

Didn't Naurto actually have the big bad and Sasuke turn into "good guys" cause........reasons.
 
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PSqueak

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
lazygecko said:
DC/WB is so intent on making Harley Quinn a more "likeable" character, in Injustice everyone basically gives her a pass in spite of being deeply complicit in nuking Metropolis, which not only killed millions but also sparked the chain of events that led to the world becoming a dystopian hellhole.
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I like that at least she owns up to it, like the good guys tolerate her around because she's at least doing good now but no one pretends her awful stuff never happened, even she acknowledges there's "buckets" of blood on her hands.
 
caliph95

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,187
Zero-ELEC said:
Absolutely not. Not everyone can or should get redeemed.

It's one of the things about Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. handled Ward that I fucking loved. They had all the chances (and fan demand) in the world to redeem Ward but they very explicitly realize that no matter how fucked up his childhood was, how much he was abused he was still a monster working for Nazis.

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I'm far from anti forgiveness or anything I'm almost the opposite

But man was I so relieved and refreshed that the even though people kept saying Ward would get redeemed and the team went "Nah fuck ward"
 
Hyun Sai

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Kinsaras said:
Surprises me how many people cheer on Jaime Lannister. Guess we forgot that part of tossing a child out of a window and without a care.
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In the universe Jaime is living, he doesn't have much choice anyway. Either he kills Bran, or he dies with Cersei and all their children. So while that's still an unforgivable act, as a father, it makes sense.
 
Reven Wolf

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Is it possible? Sure.

But it would depend on the themes, writing etc.

I feel most "redemptions" tend to be too fast considering the magnitude of the crimes.

The reason Avatar:TLA works is because the antagonist was young, was shown as conflicted, and most importantly his change was shown over a period of time.
 
Aaronrules380

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,460
I mean I think it depends on how you define redemption. I'm reminded from a bit in full metal alchemist brotherhood where they specify there's a difference between forgiving someone's past crimes and moving past them. It's bad to forget somrone's Crimes, especially heinous ones that can never be undone. I don't think redemption is a matter of good deeds cancelling out bad deeds, because both can and do exist at the same time. Good deeds don't erase bad deeds nor do bad deeds erase good ones. That said I think it's important as a society to be willing to move past crimes when a genuine effort is being given because otherwise you're encouraging people who've crossed beyond that line to keep crossing it, since there's no real incentive to get better at that point. A system where you lose everything after a commiting a terrible crime invites recidivism as can be seen with the US justice system. The only time I feel a life sentence or death is warranted for a crime is when the risk of letting a person go free is so great that it needs to be done for the sake of protecting others. I'm not a fan of the idea of punishment that exists only for the sake of hurting wrongdoers with no benefit to anyone else
 
SageShinigami

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,472
lazygecko said:
DC/WB is so intent on making Harley Quinn a more "likeable" character, in Injustice everyone basically gives her a pass in spite of being deeply complicit in nuking Metropolis, which not only killed millions but also sparked the chain of events that led to the world becoming a dystopian hellhole.
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Yeah I don't really like Harley Quinn. They try to make her sympathetic by saying she was in an abusive relationship, only...I mean. He was the Joker when she met him. It's one thing if someone meets a dude and he seems like a decent guy and eventually they realize OMG he's a monster. It's another thing to meet a guy who's clearly a fucking monster and decide to go along with his BS for awhile. They've even had scenes where she beats up the Joker saying she won't tolerate his shit anymore and I just...really do not have it in me to root for her at all.

Gwenpool, hilariously, is a working version of what they were trying to do with that character.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Wingfan19 said:
I don't believe Sgt. Hatred ever admitted to actually giving into his pedophilia urges at any time. I think the creators said the serum just gave him the urges, but that he never actually acted on them.
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Sgt. Hatred molested Hank Venture. Hank talks about it in "I know why the Caged Bird kills" season 2 episode 10. This is further confirmed in "Showdown at Cremation Creek II" season 2 episode 13.

Sgt. Hatred 100% is a pedophile who has acted on his urges.
 
Geist

Geist

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,579
The difference between fiction and reality is that, for the most part, you can verify the sincerity of a characters redemption by virtue of an audience's god-like perspective, so it's easy to root for a former bad guy because we know for a fact they regret they're actions and are trying to do better. And if they don't they'll most likely get their comeuppance later on in the story.

We don't have the luxury of that in real life.
 
Reven Wolf

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Aaronrules380 said:
I mean I think it depends on how you define redemption. I'm reminded from a bit in full metal alchemist brotherhood where they specify there's a difference between forgiving someone's past crimes and moving past them. It's bad to forget somrone's Crimes, especially heinous ones that can never be undone. I don't think redemption is a matter of good deeds cancelling out bad deeds, because both can and do exist at the same time. Good deeds don't erase bad deeds nor do bad deeds erase good ones. That said I think it's important as a society to be willing to move past crimes when a genuine effort is being given because otherwise you're encouraging people who've crossed beyond that line to keep crossing it, since there's no real incentive to get better at that point. A system where you lose everything after a commiting a terrible crime invites recidivism as can be seen with the US justice system. The only time I feel a life sentence or death is warranted for a crime is when the risk of letting a person go free is so great that it needs to be done for the sake of protecting others. I'm not a fan of the idea of punishment that exists only for the sake of hurting wrongdoers with no benefit to anyone else
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This is a good example of my view on it tbh.

A series I've been reading recently covers these themes pretty thoroughly it follows these ideas (along with some other themes of accountability/responsibility etc).
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Wingfan19 said:
I read that as Hank just knowing Hatred's alleged past and being naive enough to ask that. Hank didn't say, "Are you going to bad touch me again?"
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Hank specifically, explicitly, 100% says Hatred touched him:

Hank Venture: If you're supposed to be our mom, then why you got us tied up, huh? People only do that when they wanna kill us.

Dean Venture: Or hold us for ransom.

Hank Venture: Or touch us inappropriately.

Dean Venture: What? When? That never...

Hank Venture: Sergeant Hatred? What, did you block that out? Oh, no, wait - you were passed out from the wine. Most of it was awful; trust me.
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Robin

Robin

Restless Insomniac
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,502
starpower said:
It doesn't have a happy ending I suppose, you still get a lot of different feelings watching throu it thou
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I'm fine with bummer endings, I just don't think Sam Rockwells characters redemption was earned in the slightest. Using racism as window dressing for a character is lame.
 
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