Riot Games made two events @ PAX West exclusive to women and non-binary folks. Chaos ensues.

XorpiZ · Sep 3, 2018

Man Called Aerodynamics said:
Because God forbid that everything, all the time isn't tailored toward men. They can't have just 99% of time and attention, it's got to be 100%.

Oh please. You'd be first in line to rage, if Riot made a men-only event. Shit goes both ways.

Deleted member 42055 · Sep 3, 2018

DrDarkStryfe said:
Pretty much nothing if your first thought is "echo chamber."

Looks folks, this is not that hard. The gaming industry has a massive problem with trying to get women and non-binary into this industry, an industry that drastically needs new opinions and skills from different viewpoints. These companies, and the enthusiast communities that support them, have spent years turning gaming a very white and very male field. To swing that pendulum back to where the disenfranchised can feel welcome, you have to do some pretty radical things; exclusive panels, hiring initiatives, focused scholarships and internships are just some of the ways that the industry is making good for the people they shunned for decades.

If your line of thought boils down to "What about the men?" you are part of the problem. Ask questions, get educated, help become the solution, or get the fuck out of the way.

The fact that the two biggest stories in gaming this weekend is this and "Puddlegate" should be fucking embarrassing for anyone that enjoys games.

Great post, really disappointed with the women of the reactions ITT.

nillansan · Sep 3, 2018

Filipus said:
I seriously think Ad Hominems don't really help your point, chill.

Good thing that I am not using ad hominems, my argument is entirely based on the outcry in both this and the Reddit thread. It's not conjured out of nothing.

Filipus said:
Like I said in the post above I guess I don't really know how these presentations are conducted and was imagining something different.

This has been mentioned through-out the thread, the presentations will even be live streamed.

Filipus said:
If they are indeed simple presentations then doing what I said does avoid a lot of this discussion.

They are doing one-on-one sessions offering feedback and general advice, not what I would call simple presentations.

Filipus said:
There is no exclusivity, just preference in audience. It is safe for the company and seriously not that hard to implement (heck, even asking in the microphone for people to give up their seat works, I've seen it).

Sure, this would work if we are talking about people with an ounce of empathy and understanding, not taking the behaviour of the people that are whining about this - as demonstrated in this very thread - into the equation just makes your entire argument fall flat. Like, take a look at this thread, take a look at the Reddit thread, it's not that hard to discern what the outcome of your approach would be.

Solo Kazama · Sep 3, 2018

what is "non-binary folks"?

nillansan · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
Oh please. You'd be first in line to rage, if Riot made a men-only event. Shit goes both ways.

lmao why would you make a men-only event, when you're attempting to diversify an industry grossly dominated by men?

Khanimus · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
Oh please. You'd be first in line to rage, if Riot made a men-only event. Shit goes both ways.

Ah yes, that woefully underrepresented group in games - men. Tell me more of these diversity outreach events for men.

What a bafflingly bizarre hypothetical.

CaviarMeths · Sep 3, 2018

Wonder how many of these dudes on Reddit will have a moment of clarity and realize "Oh wait, the reason that women feel unwelcome in this industry is because I act like a big fuckin' baby every time someone tries to include them."

xrnzaaas · Sep 3, 2018

Solo Kazama said:
what is "non-binary folks"?

Androids.

TyrantGuardian · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
Oh please. You'd be first in line to rage, if Riot made a men-only event. Shit goes both ways.

No it doesn't because men aren't systematically oppressed due to their gender. This repeated narrative of "EVERYTHING IS THE SAME LOL" is honestly some of the dumbest and most intellectually vapid shit I've heard in my life.

MrBadger · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
Oh please. You'd be first in line to rage, if Riot made a men-only event. Shit goes both ways.

What would be the purpose of such an event?

RedOnePunch · Sep 3, 2018

The company has been accused of some serious internal cultural issues. Hopefully they're at least trying to address it instead of worrying about the PR side of things.

Deleted member 1248 · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
Oh please. You'd be first in line to rage, if Riot made a men-only event. Shit goes both ways.

This is you right now.

XorpiZ · Sep 3, 2018

nillansan said:
lmao why would you make a men-only event, when you're attempting to diversify an industry grossly dominated by men?

I don't think anyone would make a mens-only event. That would be silly and exclusive to women.

The Kree said:
This is you right now.

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad. You're posting a shitty GIF, that has nothing to do with anything I said, just to impress the other posters. Great job.

MrBadger said:
What would be the purpose of such an event?

See my answer to nillansan above.

The 8-Bit Raider · Sep 3, 2018

Solo Kazama said:
what is "non-binary folks"?

I don't know if I'm just old or ignorant but, seriously, what is "Non-Binary" person?

nillansan · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
I don't think anyone would make a mens-only event. That would be silly and exclusive to women.

Then why are you equating the two? Why are you even using it in your argument?

XorpiZ · Sep 3, 2018

nillansan said:
Then why are you equating the two? Why are you even using it in your argument?

I'm not equating anything. I'm saying that if Riot decided to make a mens-only event for some weird reason, the gentleman I quoted would be first in line with the torches, and thus it seems odd that he gets so angry. My point is simply, that gender exclusion isn't a one-way street.

zoboomafoo · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
Your post is bad, and you should feel bad. You're posting a shitty GIF, that has nothing to do with anything I said, just to impress the other posters. Great job.

It's actually a spot-on reply to your stuff. If you think it has nothing to do, take a break away from the computer and think about it more instead of counterattaking on the spot like you have a war to win. The icecream stuff is actually an analogy to help you understand how such an event, and the backlash surrounding it, exist in a bigger social context. :)

nillansan · Sep 3, 2018

XorpiZ said:
I'm not equating anything. I'm saying that if Riot decided to make a mens-only event for some weird reason, the gentleman I quoted would be first in line with the torches, and thus it seems odd that he gets so angry. My point is simply, that gender exclusion isn't a one-way street.

If the quote below isn't about equating the two, then I don't know what to tell you.

XorpiZ said:
Shit goes both ways.

Do you acknowledge that a men only event would be defeating the purpose of diversifying a male dominated industry and should rightfully be criticised, while an event aimed at under-represented groups should be welcomed?

Do you understand that initiatives like this are attempts to even out the playing field? Do you even acknowledge that currently the playing field is far from even?

Andy Mac · Sep 3, 2018

Honestly have no idea why people get so wound up about stuff like this.

Gaming is very much a male dominated industry or community or whatever, I think we can agree on this?

So it follows that the best way to give women a bit of space and a bit of time to shine on their own ought to be welcome?

We organize a local 10km race here, the "Women's 10k", and we go through this argument year after year and this is always my conclusion after hearing all of the various points. If you simply have a mixed 10km race then you will almost never have a woman crossing the finish line first. In our most recent mixed event the first woman to cross the finish line was the 36th person to cross the finish and she came in more than 7 minutes after the first male and actually even 2 minutes after the 20th placed male. In terms of times and finishing places running is a male dominated sport and so the best way to give women their due recognition is that you need to run women's events.

In the context of working in gaming we see the same. The biggest and most recognizable faces are almost exclusively male. The biggest games in terms of media coverage and sales are almost always male focused. If you have mixed events then it's logical that female voices are simply lost in the crowd.

The only issue I can see is with the presentation of these events. We run the "women's 10k" but we never say "no men allowed". If a man did show up and insisted on running we'd try to talk them out of it but ultimately they could run if they insisted but they would probably find that their respectability in the community would be zero after the event.

Like, just stay away and let them have their event FFS.

Why don't we have a men's only event? Simple. Any mixed even is so completely dominated by males that there is no need AT ALL to give them their own race.

It's not sexism against men. We have a women's event so that women can get their recognition and so that women can be given a chance to win a competitive event where the usual "playing field" imbalance, due to biological differences, is removed.

This is just the same. Any given event in a male dominated industry like gaming is going to be itself male dominated. So if one has the not so crazy idea of "let's figure out how the women are doing" then the best way to achieve that is to have a "women's event".

If men insist on entering then just say "fine" but try to explain them why you are holding a women's event and definitely don't invite them to participate in any Q&A or anything like that. If they are decent folks they should just say "actually, I'll just leave you to it". Otherwise... I don't know.

This "Gender Wars" crap is pretty depressing, isn't it?

deepFlaw · Sep 3, 2018

Solo Kazama said:
what is "non-binary folks"?

The 8-Bit Raider said:
I don't know if I'm just old or ignorant but, seriously, what is "Non-Binary" person?

Sometimes you really can just google things instead of posting.

nillansan · Sep 3, 2018

Andy Mac said:
This "Gender Wars" crap is pretty depressing, isn't it?

All of this outrage directed at an 8 hour event. Very depressing.

boris_feinbrand · Sep 3, 2018

The 8-Bit Raider said:
I don't know if I'm just old or ignorant but, seriously, what is "Non-Binary" person?

People that identify neither as man or woman. There is a whole spectrum of in-between

deepFlaw said:
Sometimes you really can just google things instead of posting.

And in the time it took you to make this flippant post you could've explained it yourself. But snark is much more satisfying right?

Doctor_Thomas · Sep 3, 2018

There's literally clubs thay only admit men.

This is manchildren being manchildren who need a safe space.

Fuck them.

ToTheMoon · Sep 3, 2018

100% with Riot on this. The employee who called them "manbabies" should have been more tactful...but he's also absolutely correct.

Deleted member 45130 · Sep 3, 2018

GitarooMan said:
I don't see the issue and people who think it's sexist are naive and missing the point entirely but that's par for the course for a certain subset of gamers.

Why can't we all get along? No need to segregate anyone.

To reach equality, everyone must actually believe they are all equal and shit like this kind of does defeat the purpose.

Dragnipur · Sep 3, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
That makes zero sense.
- If you're saying that the reason some dudes push others is a "problem of personality" they have and they do it equally regardless of gender... you're either being naive or disingenuous.
- If you're saying the "problem of personality" is getting pushed, rather than pushing, then fuck this locker room toxic masculinity.

- I'm not being naive or disingenuous at all. The vast majority of the time when someone talks over someone else they aren't thinking "LOL a woman is talking lets just ignore that and get my point in" they're just that type of person who can't shut up. I'm not saying it doesn't happen where they do it for sexist reasons, but you're reaching if you think its just sexism at play all the time
- Nice counterpoint. If you have a non-confrontational personality then you're more likely to get walked all over by someone who has a confrontational personality.

DrDarkStryfe · Sep 3, 2018

I'm perfectly fine with the manbabies comment. Folks that approach an argument in bad faith and lack of an open mind deserve to be treated as such.

Deleted member 5167 · Sep 3, 2018

ToTheMoon · Sep 3, 2018

HairyFist87 said:
Why can't we all get along? No need to segregate anyone.

To reach equality, everyone must actually believe they are all equal and shit like this kind of does defeat the purpose.

Because men and women aren't even remotely close to being treated equally in the video game industry right nows. One way to try to overcome that is to create opportunities where women can learn how to break into the industry and discuss concerns specific to their situation that are intentionally and deliberately protected from the current, toxic, misogynistic "gamer" culture.

Dragnipur · Sep 3, 2018

Dr Wily said:

This one is better:

Weltall Zero · Sep 3, 2018

Dragnipur said:
- I'm not being naive or disingenuous at all. The vast majority of the time when someone talks over someone else they aren't thinking "LOL a woman is talking lets just ignore that and get my point in" they're just that type of person who can't shut up. I'm not saying it doesn't happen where they do it for sexist reasons, but you're reaching if you think its just sexism at play all the time
- Nice counterpoint. If you have a non-confrontational personality then you're more likely to get walked all over by someone who has a confrontational personality.

- Questions the need for safe spaces for women.
- Mansplains to women that it's not sexism, it happens to men too.
- Places the blame on "non-confrontational types" for letting themselves be walked over.

This is so perfectly self-demonstrating it should be made into a case study. :D

Dragnipur said:
This one is better:

I like the other one better because it illustrates more clearly the concept of redistributing resources, which is lost in the one above since new boxes appear out of nowhere.

Dragnipur · Sep 3, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
- Questions the need for safe spaces for women.
- Mansplains to women that it's not sexism, it happens to men too.
- Places the blame on "non-confrontational types" for letting themselves be walked over.

This is so perfectly self-demonstrating it should be made into a case study. :D

I like the other one better because it illustrates more clearly the concept of redistributing resources, which is lost in the one above since new boxes appear out of nowhere.

- Please point out where I questioned the need for safe spaces.
- Arguing in bad faith.
- yep

If you can't actually come up with real counterpoints don't reply. As for the picture, the one with the different heights implies that there's something inherently worse about women (don't know why you're into that) while the one with different fence heights shows that women are at a disadvantage due to societal circumstances instead of there being something inherently worse about them.

Weltall Zero · Sep 3, 2018

Dragnipur said:
- Please point out where I questioned the need for safe spaces.

You replied to a post explaining the need for safe spaces with:

Dragnipur said:
That sounds more like a personal problem than a sexism problem. Males can be "pushed to the edges" as well, that's personality dependent not gender.

This is literally downplaying the very reasons why safe spaces are needed, and downplaying systematic sexism in general.

Dragnipur said:
- Arguing in bad faith.
- yep

If you can't actually come up with real counterpoints don't reply.

Counterpoints to what? To "sexism isn't real, it's just that some people like to talk"? If that's not your entire argument, feel free to clarify.

Dragnipur said:
As for the picture, the one with the different heights implies that there's something inherently worse about women (don't know why you're into that) while the one with different fence heights shows that women are at a disadvantage due to societal circumstances instead of there being something inherently worse about them.

It's literally the exact same fucking thing. In fact it's a far better example for that reason, because height is an inherent property you cannot change, unlike the height of the wall. The only way you can spin body height as "something worse" is if you're also bigoted against short people (or kids), what the fuck?

Dragnipur · Sep 3, 2018

Weltall Zero said:
You replied to a post explaining the need for safe spaces with:

This is literally downplaying the very reasons why safe spaces are needed, and downplaying systematic sexism in general.

I responded to "fellow junior male colleagues tend to take over and push you to the edges" with that. Safespaces had nothing to do with that.

Weltall Zero said:
Counterpoints to what? To "sexism isn't real, it's just that some people like to talk"? If that's not your entire argument, feel free to clarify.

You're doing the arguing in bad faith thing again. All I said is that when someone talks over someone else you can't blame sexism for it every time.

Weltall Zero said:
It's literally the exact same fucking thing. The only way you can spin body height as "something worse" is if you're also bigoted against short people (or kids), what the fuck?

Can you not understand that it's worse in the context of being able to see over the fence? That's the entire point of the picture.

Budi · Sep 3, 2018

Of course it did, once again. Disappointing to see so many people in this thread going on about "true equality" and it going both ways. Sure, things like mandatory military service should be for both sexes or optional for both sexes. That's a big thing. Offering a women only event isn't some huge discrimination issue, especially considering that it's gaming related. There's big problems with misogyny in gaming and women are really under-represented. And I'm also absolutely talking about the gaming community when I say gaming has problems with misogyny. Not just the business/development side.

Edit: Of course the attendees should be informed beforehand if some events they could be interested in aren't open to them. Should be no surprises when they get there. But nothing wrong with having these events they had.

Weltall Zero · Sep 3, 2018

Dragnipur said:
I responded to "fellow junior male colleagues tend to take over and push you to the edges" with that. Safespaces had nothing to do with that.

You were literally replying to a conversation about why safe spaces are needed. How can you have the fucking balls to call me disingenuous?

Dragnipur said:
You're doing the arguing in bad faith thing again. All I said is that when someone talks over someone else you can't blame sexism for it every time.

Can you not understand that it's worse in the context of being able to see over the fence? That's the entire point of the picture.

"Worse" as in what? As in "being disadvantaged"? Gee, I wonder why anyone would want to use that as a metaphor...

Adamska · Sep 3, 2018

Filipus said:
And the solution is to make them not belong anywhere except their group?

No, the solution is creating safe spaces until such a time where safe spaces aren't needed because every space will be safe.

Currently, every space is only safe for those who conform to a certain phenotype (white, male). Everyone else is at risk of prejudice (prejudice that usually is more common among white males).

Deleted member 15395 · Sep 3, 2018

They should've informed people sooner about this and some of the twitter responses from the company leave a lot to be desired (seriously, people have got to stop berating customers on twitter...).

Other than that, this is an excellent initiative and whether it was a PR stunt or not, I think it will do more good than wrong (regardless of reddit idiots crying about it) in the long run.

Hilbert · Sep 3, 2018

Bunch of people in here are probably raging about the lack of a White Entertainment Television network.

Crossing Eden · Sep 3, 2018

DrDarkStryfe said:
Pretty much nothing if your first thought is "echo chamber."

Looks folks, this is not that hard. The gaming industry has a massive problem with trying to get women and non-binary into this industry, an industry that drastically needs new opinions and skills from different viewpoints. These companies, and the enthusiast communities that support them, have spent years turning gaming a very white and very male field. To swing that pendulum back to where the disenfranchised can feel welcome, you have to do some pretty radical things; exclusive panels, hiring initiatives, focused scholarships and internships are just some of the ways that the industry is making good for the people they shunned for decades.

If your line of thought boils down to "What about the men?" you are part of the problem. Ask questions, get educated, help become the solution, or get the fuck out of the way.

The fact that the two biggest stories in gaming this weekend is this and "Puddlegate" should be fucking embarrassing for anyone that enjoys games.

^^^^

Jacobson · Sep 3, 2018

The 8-Bit Raider said:
I don't know if I'm just old or ignorant but, seriously, what is "Non-Binary" person?

i'm not sure, but based on the term, with binary being 1 and 0, i'm assuming it refers to men and women, so non-binary means any gender outside of those two

deepFlaw · Sep 3, 2018

Jacobson said:
i'm not sure, but based on the term, with binary being 1 and 0, i'm assuming it refers to men and women, so non-binary means any gender outside of those two

Binary also just means "2".

It can be neither or both or in between, depending on the person.

Jacobson · Sep 4, 2018

deepFlaw said:
Binary also just means "2".

It can be neither or both or in between, depending on the person.

and i just realized nonary means 9. thanks

Filipus · Sep 4, 2018

Adamska said:
No, the solution is creating safe spaces until such a time where safe spaces aren't needed because every space will be safe.

Currently, every space is only safe for those who conform to a certain phenotype (white, male). Everyone else is at risk of prejudice (prejudice that usually is more common among white males).

Well, we will just have to disagree with the approach. Again, I'm referring to presentations like GDC.
Like I said before I was mistaken in the way these presentations are presented (being way more personal than a "sit-down-and-listen") and I support what they did because of that.

Joe2187 · Sep 4, 2018

Hey everybody loves boogie right?....

it goes on and on for a while....

nillansan · Sep 4, 2018

Joe2187 said:
Hey everybody loves boogie right?

Fuck this piece of shit, I wish him all the misery in the world.

Wamb0wneD · Sep 4, 2018

Joe2187 said:
Hey everybody loves boogie right?....

it goes on and on for a while....

Boogie should just flush himself down a toilet.

Jazzem · Sep 4, 2018

Joe2187 said:
Hey everybody loves boogie right?....

...

it goes on and on for a while....

His track record's certainly consistent

phaeta · Sep 4, 2018

Joe2187 said:
Hey everybody loves boogie right?....

it goes on and on for a while....

Of course it does, considering the source. Having a networking/mentoring session for women and non-binary folks = "PUNISHING MEN"? Sigh.

Nome · Sep 7, 2018

https://kotaku.com/two-riot-employees-leave-under-complicated-circumstance-1828886072

So Riot fired both Daniel and Mattias over this incident.

Riot Games made two events @ PAX West exclusive to women and non-binary folks. Chaos ensues.

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