Who is a game developer, what is game development?

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

As a Senior QA this thread is kinda disheartening.

QA is a very important part of game development, and if it's part of game development, you're a game developer.

Alek · Aug 31, 2018

machinaea said:
This is a good distinction. In my team I have embedded QA how actively help design feedback in early phases, they contribute to the design of features and their relevant toolset for effective testing. I definitely consider them game developers even if they do not commit any changes to version control or coordinate builds or whatever.

In general for me, it's pretty much anyone who works within the game team (which is crudely put Producers, Product Managers, Designers, Programmers, Artists, QA, Systems Engineers in my team) or the supporting technical teams (Dev Ops, Sys Ops).

Just to clarify, with that distinction I didn't mean to suggest that FQA weren't game developers. In my opinion they are.

I just think it's interesting that people will suggest something like, the idea that QA aren't game developers, but they often don't really know what QA do. Heck, QA people often aren't even aware of their own impact on a games development.

Snefer said:
As a game developer, this is a bit of a strange thread to read :D

How so? I'd be interested to hear.

Pascal · Aug 31, 2018

What is game development? A miserable little pile of secrets!

Fid · Aug 31, 2018

Pascal said:
What is game development? A miserable little pile of secrets!

goddamnit, beaten by less than a minute :-(

well done

MatrixMan.exe · Aug 31, 2018

MisterBear said:
Yea wouldnt consider a QA person a Developer. Just as much as I wouldnt consider a Focus/Play Tester a developer. You help the development, but you didn't develop anything.

This doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to say this as someone who works at a development studio - physically seeing how each department contributes to the development of a game, there is no way you can say that "helping to develop" isn't development.

Its the reason why there's a recent trend of Community Managers in games being known as Community Developers. Especially in a world where Games as a Service is so prevalent, you cannot simply relegate the title of "developer" solely to people who have had technical input on the final product. You just can't.

I think the only anomalies are HR and to an extent Finance as they're very much detached from the actual delivery of the product an encompass the entire studio.

jschreier · Aug 31, 2018

Is this really necessary? Doesn't the video game world suffer enough already from self-appointed gatekeepers? Why try to draw up definitions that serve no purpose but to make people feel excluded? Anyone who works on games is a game developer, end of story.

machinaea · Aug 31, 2018

Chronospherics said:
Just to clarify, with that distinction I didn't mean to suggest that FQA weren't game developers. In my opinion they are.

Right, I didn't mean to suggest that you weren't against classifying FQA (or other forms of non-embedded QA) as developers, but to make the distinction that certain QA roles can have a very direct effect on the actual design of development, so they should be classified as developers by all distinctions. That said, I also agree that FQA are game developers, and as a Producer I think they contribute massively to the end product.

Alek · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Is this really necessary? Doesn't the video game world suffer enough already from self-appointed gatekeepers? Why try to draw up definitions that serve no purpose but to make people feel excluded?

Well, in my opinion everyone that works to ship a game is a game developer. All of the roles in the OP, and many that weren't listed.

I wanted to identify the perspectives of others on this board, not draw up barriers or make anyone feel excluded.

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

MisterBear said:
Yea wouldnt consider a QA person a Developer. Just as much as I wouldnt consider a Focus/Play Tester a developer. You help the development, but you didn't develop anything.

Focus/Play testers are VERY different roles of development than QA.

They're not even comparable in terms of role.

Xeontech · Aug 31, 2018

QA testers aren't developers. The same as beta testers aren't developers.

They work in the industry, sure, and good ones really help make a polished product. But they weren't part of the creation and development process.

Deleted member 12790 · Aug 31, 2018

I feel like this topic was made less to "find out what people of era think" and more to try and argue that marketers and QA are game developers, and that those who disagree "don't really know what QA do."

To clarify, I know the role of QA. I would say QA contributes to the project. I would call launching something like Metal Gear Solid an entertainment product, in that it involves a lot of coordinated industries coming together to release a single product. The marketing is part of that product, the game itself is part of that product, QA is part of that product, etc.

When I think of "game developers" however, I think of those whose output is literally the game itself, directly.

jschreier said:
Is this really necessary? Doesn't the video game world suffer enough already from self-appointed gatekeepers? Why try to draw up definitions that serve no purpose but to make people feel excluded?

Despite disagreeing where the definitions begin or end, I also feel this way. I get the feeling the reason people are eager to use broad definitions of "game developer" is an attempt at tribalism, as though game developers are somehow the most important aspect of a successful product launch. I would say, very often, they're not. QA and Marketing are extremely important. I can't help but feel this topic was made for an argument.

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

Xeontech said:
QA testers aren't developers. The same as beta testers aren't developers.

They work in the industry, sure, and good ones really help make a polished product. But they weren't part of the creation and development process.

Beta Testers aren't QA Testers, you aren't a trained person performing testing duties, nor are you looking at it through all stage of development.

As I said to the Focus/Play testers thing, they're an entirely different role and QA testers are ABSOLUTELY game developers.

An easier way to look at it "Did you touch a game in the studio you work at, prior to release in a way that affects the launch of the title?" if you answered yes, you're a Game Developer, and anyone who tells you otherwise, either works at a studio who keeps their QA/Marketing/BI teams locked away in a separate room, or does not work in the games industry.

Issen · Aug 31, 2018

Normally, people who work on a website's art, visual design, sound design (if any), etc. aren't considered (and in my experience don't consider themselves) web developers. Sometimes not even people closer to the technical side (system admins, devops, QA) are considered web developers. Only those who write the actual code that provides the website's application functionality are considered web developers.

In the same way, if you aren't writing code that runs during a game's execution, you're not a game developer.

crack-king · Aug 31, 2018

Very interesting thread. "Game developer" is kind of a term, which is undefined or fuzzy. In my opinion, anyone who contributes to the actual game, should be able to call himself game developer. A developer seems to be seen as a person who contributes code. But I would say that those are software engineers. But in the end you need software engineers, producers, animators, QA and what not else. If the discussion showed anything than that this term is not clearly defined.

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

Rukumouru said:
Normally, people who work on a website's art, visual design, sound design (if any), etc. aren't considered (and in my experience don't consider themselves) web developers. Sometimes not even people closer to the technical side (system admins, devops, QA) are considered (or consider themselves) web developers. Only those who write the actual code that provides the website's application functionality are considered (and consider themselves) web developers.

In the same way, if you aren't writing code that runs during a game's execution, you're not a game developer.

That's a Game Programmer btw, or (in your experience they considerthemselves) a part of Game Development.

WillySJ3 · Aug 31, 2018

The only one I don't agree is the Marketing team, but thats debatable.

elenarie · Aug 31, 2018

It is mind-boggling to see people post that QA folks are not game developers. This is what QA does:

- Create and implement automation scripts, design, and code for automation testing of both tools and game projects;
- Inform paper and in-software design and implementations, and development processes with feedback, risks, strengths, weaknesses;
- Create tools to help during development and empower the team to do more and get more out of the development process;
- Implement design, code, and art that may originally be out of scope or downprioritised due to other team members being too busy;
- Prevent lingering bugs by calling out or fixing issues before they are bugged;
- Prepare, process, and propagate reports and analysis about features or state of the projects;
- Organise playtests, events, capture sessions.

All of the above is game development.

jschreier · Aug 31, 2018

Chronospherics said:
Well, in my opinion everyone that works to ship a game is a game developer. All of the roles in the OP, and many that weren't listed.

I wanted to identify the perspectives of others on this board, not draw up barriers or make anyone feel excluded.

Well this thread has led to horrible, ignorant posts like this:

Xeontech said:
QA testers aren't developers. The same as beta testers aren't developers.

They work in the industry, sure, and good ones really help make a polished product. But they weren't part of the creation and development process.

Alek · Aug 31, 2018

elenarie said:
It is mind-boggling to see people post that QA folks are not game developers. This is what QA does:

- Create and implement automation scripts, design, and code for automation testing of both tools and game projects;
- Inform paper and in-software design and implementations, and development processes with feedback, risks, strengths, weaknesses;
- Create tools to help during development and empower the team to do more and get more out of the development process;
- Implement design, code, and art that may originally be out of scope or downprioritised due to other team members being too busy;
- Prevent lingering bugs by calling out or fixing issues before they are bugged;
- Prepare, process, and propagate reports and analysis about features or state of the projects;
- Organise playtests, events, capture sessions.

All of the above is game development.

Not debating with your perspective at all, but why are QA organising playtests? This sounds like the role of a user researcher.

Xeontech · Aug 31, 2018

OrangeNova said:
Beta Testers aren't QA Testers, you aren't a trained person performing testing duties, nor are you looking at it through all stage of development.

As I said to the Focus/Play testers thing, they're an entirely different role and QA testers are ABSOLUTELY game developers.

An easier way to look at it "Did you touch a game in the studio you work at, prior to release in a way that affects the launch of the title?" if you answered yes, you're a Game Developer, and anyone who tells you otherwise, either works at a studio who keeps their QA/Marketing/BI teams locked away in a separate room, or does not work in the games industry.

Nah, I worked a blizzard for years as a QA tester, and there's no way I'd consider what we did 'game development'

Xeontech · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Well this thread has led to horrible, ignorant posts like this:

I think you're exaggerating a bit

Edit: do you actually have experience in QA Jason? Are you arguing with actual experience on the subject?

Issen · Aug 31, 2018

OrangeNova said:
That's a Game Programmer btw, or (in your experience they considerthemselves) a part of Game Development.

I've never seen anyone in the web or mobile app development industries make this distinction, but of course there's more to development than the fields (or even the companies) I've personally worked with.

KaaiCluney · Aug 31, 2018

I absolutely see QA as game developers. I think anyone who fills a role important enough that a game development studio needs to pay that person a wage is a game developer. (HR, IT, QA -- even Legal.)

I also see no reason to point at a person who is employed by a game studio or publisher and to say: "You're not a Game Developer." What's the point in that?

Alek · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Well this thread has led to horrible, ignorant posts like this:

I don't want to shame anyone for expressing their opinion, Jason. Posts like the one you quoted do not represent my opinion but I do think there's a benefit to openly talking about this topic.

I think the worst part is that there are people also in these roles, who don't feel like they are game developers, because how the industry and their work environment has made them feel.

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

Xeontech said:
Nah, I worked a blizzard for years as a QA tester, and there's no way I'd consider what we did 'game development'

Then you're discrediting your role and hurting the rest of us in the industry for what your role entails.

Unless Blizzard doesn't talk to it's QA department about what they think about the game, or discuss what issues are occurring with them, then I don't understand how you wouldn't consider that the case.

MisterBear · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Well this thread has led to horrible, ignorant posts like this:

Not really. How can you make that claim?

I've worked QA and never considered myself a developer, until I got into game development. When QA employee's switch from QA to development, they are then developers. It's not insulting or anything, its just how it goes.

Nobody is dismissing the importance of QA, I think they are absolutely essential and a god-send, especially near stressful times of a project. I'd absolutely hate not having my QA team and respect them very much.

If they felt disrespected by not being considered "Developers" then I'd absolutely call them developers, but I think most of them know or don't care, it's just what it is...

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

MisterBear said:
Not really. How can you make that claim?

I've worked QA and never considered myself a developer, until I got into game development. When QA employee's switch from QA to development, they are then developers. It's not insulting or anything, its just how it goes.

Nobody is dismissing the importance of QA, I think they are absolutely essential and a god-send, especially near stressful times of a project. I'd absolutely hate not having my QA team and respect them very much.

You're the person who compared a QA tester to a Focus/Play tester... I really don't think you understand the role of QA in a project.

elenarie · Aug 31, 2018

Chronospherics said:
Not debating with your perspective at all, but why are QA organising playtests? This sounds like the role of a user researcher.

I cannot speak for all studios, but organising playtests at DICE is a tech-skill heavy activity. We do playtests 2 times per day, 1 hour per playtest.

This requires the person that organises the playtest to chase all stakeholders of a playtest to ensure that their changes are in the branch before the playtest, and their changes have been verified to work. To chase issues and make sure those issues are fixed by others, or fix the issues themselves (often times complete blockers that require design, art, or backend changes), build the game, deploy builds, use tools to spread those builds across the studio, get servers up and manage those servers during the playtests, gather feedback, react to an amount of real time issues for every single playtest by fixing things on the fly, send that feedback to the affected stakeholders, send playability / stability reports, and all other various tasks.

It may be different for a single player game that rarely gets playtested, or gets playtested based on milestones and what not, but with a studio as big as ours, the playtests are a very involved activity.
We can immediately verify, approve, or disprove designs and changes twice a day, every day.

Based on my experience, people doing UXR usually don't posses these tech skills. Our QA do work with our UXR folks directly though, our playtests basically feed builds directly into our UXR sessions so we get nice comparative feedback between groups of people on the same builds and same experiences quite often.

I would very much like to do a GDC talk on this one day, as we effectively do a "release" twice a day, every day. :D

MisterBear · Aug 31, 2018

OrangeNova said:
You're the person who compared a QA tester to a Focus/Play tester... I really don't think you understand the role of QA in a project.

Uhhhhhhhh ok.

jschreier · Aug 31, 2018

MisterBear said:
Not really. How can you make that claim?

I've worked QA and never considered myself a developer, until I got into game development. When QA employee's switch from QA to development, they are then developers. It's not insulting or anything, its just how it goes.

Nobody is dismissing the importance of QA, I think they are absolutely essential and a god-send, especially near stressful times of a project. I'd absolutely hate not having my QA team and respect them very much.

If they felt disrespected by not being considered "Developers" then I'd absolutely call them developers, but I think most of them know or don't care, it's just what it is...

Like I said, there's enough gatekeeping in the video game industry already without needing to start more debates about who's "really" a game developer.

Whether or not you personally considered yourself a "developer," QA people are mistreated enough already without needing to find more excuses to make them feel excluded. What is the point of this semantics debate other than creating an elite club to which only some people are welcome?

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Like I said, there's enough gatekeeping in the video game industry already without needing to start more debates about who's "really" a game developer.

Whether or not you personally considered yourself a "developer," QA people are mistreated enough already without needing to find more excuses to make them feel excluded. What is the point of this semantics debate other than creating an elite club to which only some people are welcome?

Thank you.

Like actually thank you so much.

eyeball_kid · Aug 31, 2018

I think some of this comes down to semantics. In much of the tech industry, a Developer is someone who works with code. As opposed to Creative teams which handle the art assets. But in game development things are a bit blurrier -- especially as programmers are also often doing art on indie games -- and I'd include programmers, artists, writers, PMs, and QA under that title. Anyone who materially worked to ship those games.

As someone who worked on marketing/advertising for games for quite a few years, I'm not sure I'd put myself in that category. Maybe others see that differently. But I wasn't contributing directly to the products that ended up on those gold disks. Did I contribute to the financial success of them? Perhaps in my most egotistical state of mind I could say I did. But I think that's different. The art itself vs. the capitalistic framework around it.

Deleted member 11986 · Aug 31, 2018

Game development is a road paved with good intentions by the developers only to sometimes being spoiled by some other folk's opinions (investors, marketing , etc) who may not even share the same visions and perspectives.

MisterBear · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Like I said, there's enough gatekeeping in the video game industry already without needing to start more debates about who's "really" a game developer.

Whether or not you personally considered yourself a "developer," QA people are mistreated enough already without needing to find more excuses to make them feel excluded. What is the point of this semantics debate other than creating an elite club to which only some people are welcome?

Uhh ok, then they are developers.

Nobody really cares. It's just semantics like you said.

Xeontech · Aug 31, 2018

OrangeNova said:
Then you're discrediting your role and hurting the rest of us in the industry for what your role entails.

Unless Blizzard doesn't talk to it's QA department about what they think about the game, or discuss what issues are occurring with them, then I don't understand how you wouldn't consider that the case.

Not in the slightest. On the contrary, I think labeling the marketing team, the legal team, QA team as a 'game developer' is diminishing the role of a developer and is a bit of a slight to the creators.

It would be like saying an online news site is somehow a game developer for getting first exclusive marketing/interview rights. Kinda silly to me.

All those jobs are important and have their place, but they are well outside the responsibilities and credits due to the actual game developers/creators.

MisterBear said:
Not really. How can you make that claim?

I've worked QA and never considered myself a developer, until I got into game development. When QA employee's switch from QA to development, they are then developers. It's not insulting or anything, its just how it goes.

Nobody is dismissing the importance of QA, I think they are absolutely essential and a god-send, especially near stressful times of a project. I'd absolutely hate not having my QA team and respect them very much.

If they felt disrespected by not being considered "Developers" then I'd absolutely call them developers, but I think most of them know or don't care, it's just what it is...

Exactly

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

MisterBear said:
Uhh ok, then they are developers.

Nobody really cares. It's just semantics like you said.

People do care, when their positions are downplayed and discredited because someone chose to not see them as what they are.

Semantics or not, this shit affects peoples careers.

Falk · Aug 31, 2018

Wrestled with this distinction a fair bit and settled on "Game developers are not the only group of people that is completely essential to shipping a successful game".

Everyone from VA talent, to the musicians who play on a soundtrack, to marketing (which I'd consider far more involved than the others in this set of examples) to office administration all contribute to whether a game's development proceeds smoothly and/or how the final product comes out.

eyeball_kid · Aug 31, 2018

elenarie said:
I cannot speak for all studios, but organising playtests at DICE is a tech-skill heavy activity. We do playtests 2 times per day, 1 hour per playtest.

This requires the person that organises the playtest to chase all stakeholders of a playtest to ensure that their changes are in the branch before the playtest, and their changes have been verified to work. To chase issues and make sure those issues are fixed by others, or fix the issues themselves (often times complete blockers that require design, art, or backend changes), build the game, deploy builds, use tools to spread those builds across the studio, get servers up and manage those servers during the playtests, gather feedback, react to an amount of real time issues for every single playtest by fixing things on the fly, send that feedback to the affected stakeholders, send playability / stability reports, and all other various tasks.

It may be different for a single player game that rarely gets playtested, or gets playtested based on milestones and what not, but with a studio as big as ours, the playtests are a very involved activity.
We can immediately verify, approve, or disprove designs and changes twice a day, every day.

Based on my experience, people doing UXR usually don't posses these tech skills. Our QA do work with our UXR folks directly though, our playtests basically feed builds directly into our UXR sessions so we get nice comparative feedback between groups of people on the same builds and same experiences quite often.

I would very much like to do a GDC talk on this one day, as we effectively do a "release" twice a day, every day. :D

This sounds really fascinating, and impressive. I would love to hear your talk on this!

Jumpman23 · Aug 31, 2018

elenarie said:
Anyone that helps ship a game.

This.

Alek · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Like I said, there's enough gatekeeping in the video game industry already without needing to start more debates about who's "really" a game developer.

Whether or not you personally considered yourself a "developer," QA people are mistreated enough already without needing to find more excuses to make them feel excluded. What is the point of this semantics debate other than creating an elite club to which only some people are welcome?

I don't disagree with you in terms of there being enough gatekeeping in the video game industry.

I disagree that there's no purpose in talking about it, or that the only outcome of discussing it can be to create an 'elite club'. For instance, most recently I know people who I work with that are uncomfortable using the #meetthedev hash tag because they don't feel that they fit into the category.

I'm glad, that this thread has revealed plenty of game developers who feel that 'everyone that ships a game' is a game developer. At least for me, that's great to see.

Issen · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Like I said, there's enough gatekeeping in the video game industry already without needing to start more debates about who's "really" a game developer.

Whether or not you personally considered yourself a "developer," QA people are mistreated enough already without needing to find more excuses to make them feel excluded. What is the point of this semantics debate other than creating an elite club to which only some people are welcome?

It's got literally nothing to do with gatekeeping or dismissing efforts. You don't consider auxilliary/nursing staff in a hospital to be medical doctors even though they are essential to healing people and nobody pretends otherwise.

jschreier · Aug 31, 2018

Chronospherics said:
I don't disagree with you in terms of there being enough gatekeeping in the video game industry.

I disagree that there's no purpose in talking about it, or that the only outcome of discussing it can be to create an 'elite club'. For instance, most recently I know people who I work with that are uncomfortable using the #meetthedev hash tag because they don't feel that they fit into the category.

I'm glad, that this thread has revealed plenty of game developers who feel that 'everyone that ships a game' is a game developer. At least for me, that's great to see.

Fair enough, I just think these kinds of conversations can be demoralizing for people who might already feel like they don't get to sit at the cool kids table.

Deleted member 12790 · Aug 31, 2018

OrangeNova said:
People do care, when their positions are downplayed and discredited because someone chose to not see them as what they are.

Semantics or not, this shit affects peoples careers.

If anything I've said has hurt you in this conversation, I sincerely apologize. I'd hoped my posts conveyed that I feel very much that marketing and QA definitely contribute in meaningful ways to the game industry, and are very much vital parts of creating a successful product. Above all, teamwork is what matters most, and I definitely appreciate those whose expertise falls beyond my own. Nobody can do everything, and the secret to creating something great is having great people at every part of the job.

I hope you continue to do what you do and feel very much vital to the industry.

NXGamer · Aug 31, 2018

Krejlooc said:
I would say in those instances you, as a developer, also took on non-developer tasks. That you were a developer who did those things, does not make those things directly related to development.

I would say anybody who does anything related to creation of code or in-game assets is a game developer.

What about engine programmers or GPU programmers who write code, functions that are generic and used across games and teams?

Or API programmers, tooling, FX artists, muscians, sound designers, motion capture teams.

A game does not exist in a bubble and I would not lock it down to just game code and game art.

Also agree that QA and test are part of it, I know I would have shipped broken applications, updates without them not to mention they have also pointed me in the right direction to fix problems or improve functions too many times.

Xeontech · Aug 31, 2018

jschreier said:
Whether or not you personally considered yourself a "developer," QA people are mistreated enough already without needing to find more excuses to make them feel excluded. What is the point of this semantics debate other than creating an elite club to which only some people are welcome?

On the other hand, generalizing the semantics of the entire industry is pretty dinengenuous. I also don't consider The janitor at our building a game dev. Though their roll is important.

It's no more an elite club than a paralegal not being able to call himself an attorney is 'an elite club'

There's a distinct differnce between being a tester and being a dev. Why some feel the need to blur that line is beyond me.

jschreier · Aug 31, 2018

Rukumouru said:
It's got literally nothing to do with gatekeeping or dismissing efforts. You don't consider auxilliary/nursing staff in a hospital to be medical doctors even though they are essential to healing people and nobody pretends otherwise.

Your analogy doesn't really work. "Game developers" would be the equivalent of "hospital staff," not "doctors."

OrangeNova · Aug 31, 2018

There is no role called "game developer". Did you work on the game or have any impact on it during development? Then you are infact a game developer.

I don't understand how people don't understand this.

balohna · Aug 31, 2018

QA are game devs. If they're excluded, so would be producers/managers/development directors. Everyone contributing to the game is a dev IMO.

source: I am a game designer that used to work in QA and still very much appreciate and value my QA co-workers.

Alek · Aug 31, 2018

Xeontech said:
On the other hand, generalizing the semantics of the entire industry is pretty dinengenuous. I also don't consider The janitor at our building a game dev. Though their roll is important.

It's no more an elite club than a paralegal not being able to call himself an attorney is 'an elite club'

There's a distinct differnce between being a tester and being a dev. Why some feel the need to blur that line is beyond me.

That's why they have job titles. Like programmer and quality assurance.

I don't think saying both are game developers, blurs the line between the two roles.

Deleted member 12790 · Aug 31, 2018

NXGamer said:
What about engine programmers or GPU programmers who write code, functions that are generic and used across games and teams?

Or API programmers, tooling,

I wouldn't say someone who works solely on UE4 is a game developer, no. I wouldn't say someone who works on GPU drivers or OpenGL is a game developer, either. I feel my personal definition is pretty succinct and defines my personal definition clearly. However...

FX artists, muscians, sound designers, motion capture teams.

These are all external assets, which falls within my definition. Additionally, I'd say someone writing GLSL code or HLSL or whatever for a specific project is also a game developer, for the very reasons I outlined.

A game does not exist in a bubble and I would not lock it down to just game code and game art.

I didn't lock it down to art. I said external assets.

Who is a game developer, what is game development?

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