I don't understand how having kids improves one's quality of life by any measure

I think having kids is beautiful but OP is right that it should stop being like a predetermined thing that we expect everyone who is happy and successful to do.

This is also a bummer hot take, but probably most people should stop having kids. I used to want to be a father badly but given the way climate change is going I would feel guilty bringing a child into the world. I don't want my kid to have to see the famine, war, and death that's going to eat the planet whole in the next 70 years.

dred said:

Life is about more than your own selfish desires. No point trying to explain that to someone who doesn't understand it.

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Yeah, that's a piss poor argument to make. One can do many selfless things without wanting kids. Having a kid does not make you a selfless person by virtue of having a kid (you impregnated someone...congratulations), and not having one doesn't mean that you don't do other things to benefit the world. Not having them doesn't mean that you're sitting on your ass playing video games every weekend, and having them doesn't make you Gandhi. Understand that.

I dont think having kids improves one's life. It changes it thats all. The positive for me so far has been: trying to be a better person, getting back to doing fun kids or family oriented activities, keeping myself busy, etc. Without my son I feel I would still be drinking (im sober now) and still be sitting on my ass most days.

But I can see why a life without kids can be fun

Violence Jack said:

You gain an entirely new perspective on life when you're responsible for raising a child. I'm also learning more about myself as my son continues to grow up. It's hard to describe, but there's a feeling of pure love and determination that wasn't there before as well as not knowing that part of me existed. There's nothing I wouldn't do to protect my boy, and ensure that he has a happy life. But don't take my words as me trying to push everyone into having kids. That's ultimately up to you.

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Good post. It IS hard to describe, but you did a pretty good job.

WillRobBanks said:

It's not as you described, but it's fulfilling. You are shaping and raising another human being who will potentially do great things. And it's a legacy you leave behind.

My daughter is now almost 3 and I have a son on the way. For the first 10 weeks I was miserable, for the first year I couldn't imagine why someone would have 2 kids. Now she's my little best friend and so much fun. Seeing the world through her eyes is amazing and I love being apart of her growth and development.

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This is how it is for me. I was talking to my mom and she told me my daughter was 'wise for an eight-year-old.' She was talking about bullies with my mom and said she felt sorry for them and that you can never get everything you want in life and to be happy with what you have. She's usually just silly around me, but it makes me cry to think about that. She's so loving and sensitive with others.

It's so hard, but stuff like that makes me realize I couldn't imagine my life without her.

HarryHengst said:

Please take into consideration you will force that child to live through the worst effects of climate change, a world that is dying, an economy that is more and more fucked and a number of other fun things. Dont have a child just for your own selfish reasons.


Not having a child isnt selfish, its the moral thing to do. Having children is usually done for selfish reasons though.

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Geez man.

You have a real negative outlook so I will have to disagree with you.

And yes, as I am getting older, I would love to raise a kiddo. Let's see if it happens

HarryHengst said:

Please take into consideration you will force that child to live through the worst effects of climate change, a world that is dying, an economy that is more and more fucked and a number of other fun things. Dont have a child just for your own selfish reasons.


Not having a child isnt selfish, its the moral thing to do. Having children is usually done for selfish reasons though.

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Can you give me a not selfish reason to have children?

It isn't for everyone, and has a bunch of struggles on even the best days, but you can come out the other end a better person. It has a way of bringing out/highlighting your weakpoints, both personally and in your relationships, and in the process can be a way to learn yourself and grow.

Plus, kids are cute, playing with them can be fun, teaching them about life can be fun, etc.

Imp the Dimp said:

I'm well past the age where my parents got me, so don't ask me if I'm a teenager - I'm not, and easily past Era's median age. Now that we've settled that, I'd like to get some perspective on how kids (often in conjuction with marriage) had a positive impact on your life. I honestly lack the imagination. I couldn't possibly envision how devoting a significant portion of my life to raising children would be any sort of improvement over having fun, traveling, gaming, partying, dating etc. It's not like I'm growing out of any of that; I've already given up hope of ever getting tired of any of that. If anything, the older I got, the less tempting a family life became.

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I have no idea how you've gotten past Era's median age without understanding that kids are not status symbols or designed to be quality of life improvements like stat boosts in a video game.

Johnny956 said:

Yup it's amazing the effect our daughter has had on my wife. She just gives my wife purpose when she felt like she didn't have it before. Having kids isn't easy nor is it fun all the time. Yes it's going to change your priorities and it should.

I remember feeling like the OP (maybe not as extreme) and people describing kids to me and thought "it just sounds like a terrible job and I have to pay to do it". Hard to explain how different it is but having kids isn't for everyone so each their own

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Having children has without doubt brought more purpose and meaning to my life, but I don't think it's healthy to have little to strive towards outside of raising children. You don't want your wife to nosedive when your child eventually leaves to build their own life. So I suggest helping her find meaning outside of your family before then. You probably have plenty of time, but it's something I would keep in mind if I were you.

i don't want kids but i'm sure if i became a father tomorrow my life would be way more fulfilling. it wouldn't just be about me anymore, doesn't matter if i don't like my job that much, i don't have the car or house i particularly want, ect... it's about making somebody else happy

Shadybiz said:

Yeah, that's a piss poor argument to make. One can do many selfless things without wanting kids. Having a kid does not make you a selfless person by virtue of having a kid (you impregnated someone...congratulations), and not having one doesn't mean that you don't do other things to benefit the world. Not having them doesn't mean that you're sitting on your ass playing video games every weekend, and having them doesn't make you Gandhi. Understand that.

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This I 100% agree with. The idea that people who don't have kids lead a less fulfilling or "good" life is a very sad part of our culture. It also sucks that our time isn't considered as valuable as those who have kids.

Beartruck said:

I want a little me I can force to be good at all the things I failed at, but you do you.

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Well then, no offense, but you're gonna fail again. Been there, done that.

You are aiming for the impossible with that feat.

They grow into their own person. Nothing can be forced.

Guide them and enjoy the ride.

I don't believe children are an absolute detriment to a person's life. I believe a person's ability to parent and their level of responsible behavior results in a positive or negative experience when raising a child. For myself, I don't have the temperament to have and care for another life. My wife and I are selfish with our time and our money and we use it in ways that we feel enhance our life similarly to how parents feel a child enhances their life.

Having children is not for everyone, as has been repeated numerous times in this thread. And I wish society put more effort into dismantling the idea of the nuclear family and encouraged smart decision-making instead of championing this idea that having a child is the "logical" next step in a relationship.

Had an "oops" baby at 21. It basically cut my party/traveling years short.

Honestly it provided me so many years of enjoyment and feeling of fulfillment that is impossible to explain.

Two kids later and I'd probably do it all again.

Granted unlike yourself I've always enjoyed being around children and imagined one day I'd have children just not at such a young age.

Kids aren't for everyone, especially at your age. I didn't become a dad until my mid 30s.

The thing you need to remember is that many women's priorities will change as they approach 35. You're able to go date lots of women now, but if you don't want kids, that dating pool will shrink dramatically in your 30s.

Captain Goodnight said:

"getting kids" .. ..... Never heard it described like that.

You seem to be approaching this topic from the wrong angle.

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Yea it's a super weird choice of words

Imp the Dimp said:

I'm well past the age where my parents got me, so don't ask me if I'm a teenager - I'm not, and easily past Era's median age. Now that we've settled that, I'd like to get some perspective on how kids (often in conjuction with marriage) had a positive impact on your life. I honestly lack the imagination. I couldn't possibly envision how devoting a significant portion of my life to raising children would be any sort of improvement over having fun, traveling, gaming, partying, dating etc. It's not like I'm growing out of any of that; I've already given up hope of ever getting tired of any of that. If anything, the older I got, the less tempting a family life became.

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Wanting kids has become a deal breaker for me as I grew older. I only see misery in it.

Well, that's not true. I can see where the joy comes from, but like... It's not enough compared to being childless. From my point of view.

EDIT: Being an elderly mentor sounds cool, though. So hopefully I get to do that.

Shadybiz said:

Yeah, that's a piss poor argument to make. One can do many selfless things without wanting kids. Having a kid does not make you a selfless person by virtue of having a kid (you impregnated someone...congratulations), and not having one doesn't mean that you don't do other things to benefit the world. Not having them doesn't mean that you're sitting on your ass playing video games every weekend, and having them doesn't make you Gandhi. Understand that.

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While what you say is true the OP clearly laid out that kids would be a burden to his traveling, gaming, partying fun. He didn't mention anything like career or volunteer time or anything like that.

Basically it's have kids or be that weird old guy in the club. Easy call for me.

Pockets said:

Well then, no offense, but you're gonna fail again. Been there, done that.

You are aiming for the impossible with that feat.

They grow into their own person. Nothing can be forced.

Guide them and enjoy the ride.

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Wouldn't tiger parents prove you wrong?

Doomguy Fieri said:

Basically it's have kids or be that weird old guy in the club. Easy call for me.

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Why would you not spend time with your partner, and doing other non-club things?

Don't have kids. It's cool. You don't have to.

But I think your mental calculation of "how could having kids improve my life over having fun" is a byproduct of our generation having an infinite amount of entertainment options.

But people decide to have kids today because having fun stops being fun. They find that using every free hour of the day to consume content is empty. I never would have imagined giving up watching TV, but lol that feels like such a water of time with a kid.

Now, if you had said that you don't know how someone could give up their passion to create for having kids, I'd have more sympathy. Creating art requires a selfishness that is often incompatible with starting a family.

Chrno said:

whenever you have a kid they take over the main campaign and you become a side character.

not sure how I feel about that.

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That's depressing.

Different for everyone, like others have mentioned.

Personally I have no interest in marriage or kids. Love the single life.

Lidl said:

Wouldn't tiger parents prove you wrong?

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I don't care how tigers raise their cubs. Humans are still top of the food chain.

Kids are great and at the same time the cause of chronic neck pain.

Wouldn't change my kid having decision for the world.

Imp the Dimp said:

I'm well past the age where my parents got me, so don't ask me if I'm a teenager - I'm not, and easily past Era's median age. Now that we've settled that, I'd like to get some perspective on how kids (often in conjuction with marriage) had a positive impact on your life. I honestly lack the imagination. I couldn't possibly envision how devoting a significant portion of my life to raising children would be any sort of improvement over having fun, traveling, gaming, partying, dating etc. It's not like I'm growing out of any of that; I've already given up hope of ever getting tired of any of that. If anything, the older I got, the less tempting a family life became.

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you're overthinking it.

most people don't plan kids... they just fuck and oops, pregnant!

What's the point in doing anything if not for them?

fuchsdh said:

I have no idea how you've gotten past Era's median age without understanding that kids are not status symbols or designed to be quality of life improvements like stat boosts in a video game.

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Yeah, it sounds like such an individualistic way of thinking. It's completely fine for people not to have kids if they don't want to, but it's bizarre to phrase it in such a cold way. I would imagine that when someone is on their deathbed, they think back to the sacrifices they made for loved ones rather than their most pleasurable experience. Also, everyone's quality of life goes to shit sooner or later. It's a fact of life. Much better to take ownership of it.

As pointed out, family life is not for everyone.


That said, I adore being a father and husband. There is a feeling I have when I see my son doing something that I taught him that is unmatched by anything else in this world.

And I have to ask: what do you currently do in your life for someone else? Everything you list as things that you value in your life all seem inwardly focused amusements. Have you really spent time experiencing what it feels like to do things for others?

Why is it imperative that you "understand" it? Just live your life and let others live theirs. Too many quality of life measurements these days make us think happiness is measured in terms of XP upgrades - "10 Best Places To Live," "10 Best College Degrees," "10 Best Jobs," "10 Signs of True Happiness," etc., etc. Quality of life is mostly what you make of it.

Taking an active role in the development and nurturing of life itself is just about the most rewarding experience I could ever imagine. I hope to have kids, myself, within the next 2-3 years.

*Fingers crossed*

dred said:

Life is about more than your own selfish desires. No point trying to explain that to someone who doesn't understand it.

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Who's really selfish - the person who has a kid to be selfless? Or the person who avoids bringing another human into a chaotic & almost random world?

It doesn't really matter which, but what you said is just silly. Why do you have to give birth to a child to *not* be selfish?

Shadybiz said:

Yeah, that's a piss poor argument to make. One can do many selfless things without wanting kids. Having a kid does not make you a selfless person by virtue of having a kid (you impregnated someone...congratulations), and not having one doesn't mean that you don't do other things to benefit the world. Not having them doesn't mean that you're sitting on your ass playing video games every weekend, and having them doesn't make you Gandhi. Understand that.

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Caring for and raising children is one of the most selfless acts a person can undertake. Anyway, I never said it was the only selfless thing someone could do, but my answer is appropriate for OP's post.

Vermillion said:

Who's really selfish - the person who has a kid to be selfless? Or the person who avoids bringing another human into a chaotic & almost random world?

It doesn't really matter which, but what you said is just silly. Why do you have to give birth to a child to *not* be selfish?

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Did I say you had to give birth to a child to not be selfish?

The easiest path in life isn't really that interesting.

Seeing and interacting with children gives me happiness.

I'm not sure if I'll have kids because though.

If you have ever experienced love, multiply that by 10. Love is fulfilling and worth perusing, working towards, and sacrificing for. That is what it is like for me and my children. It is life changing, mind altering, perspective bending, and the pay off is infinitely better than any monetary goal I could ever conceive of. The life experience of nurturing a growing, smart, loving child is like nothing else in the world. It is a 100% unique experience that changes virtually every single thing about a person when all is said and done. In ideal conditions, you emerge from the other side a better person, with a stronger connection to your place within the world. Take my job, my house, my car, my toys, and all my money. Just leave me my children and I will be full of love. Everything else in life is window dressing.

Bragg said:

While what you say is true the OP clearly laid out that kids would be a burden to his traveling, gaming, partying fun. He didn't mention anything like career or volunteer time or anything like that.

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Fair enough, but the poster I responded to also didn't ask the OP, they just made an assumption. Also it's possible that the OP does not do that stuff now, but may later. It wasn't until I was in my thirties that I was in a position to give some of my salary to charity, had the time to volunteer (which I do occasionally), etc.

OR...they could end up being the type who does nothing. There are absolutely a ton of people like that. My point was that it shouldn't automatically be assumed that one who doesn't have kids is always just serving themselves.

dred said:

Caring for and raising children is one of the most selfless acts a person can undertake. Anyway, I never said it was the only selfless thing someone could do, but my answer is appropriate for OP's post.


Did I say you had to give birth to a child to not be selfish?

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You implied that OP was selfish for not wanting a kid.

Raising a child selfless? Sure. Having a child? No. And if you don't think OP is being selfish for how he feels (not wanting to have kids), then your response is even more confusing.

Its not for everyone, and i would suggest you wait. Have fun have relationships etc before considering. Dont do it because of pressure. If you dont feel like you want to be a parent then please dont.

Having said that, my son has brought me the moments of greateatest joy i have ever experienced. No trip aroind europe or fling with some girl, could ever compare. Its not easy taking care of a growing human being and taking responsability for his start on life, but man i wouldnt trade it for anything in this world.

Hes part of me, part of my life, part of my joy, like nothing else.

gutter_trash said:

don't get kids out of peer preasure or societal norms preasure.

only get kids if you really want them and can support yourself financially.

it's perfectly okay to not get kids.

Being an adult is also being able to admit that you don't want kids for what ever reason and that's fine

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This i saw today in The Alienist episode 4.
Completely agree on the don't succumb to society pressure.

Vermillion said:

Who's really selfish - the person who has a kid to be selfless? Or the person who avoids bringing another human into a chaotic & almost random world?

It doesn't really matter which, but what you said is just silly. Why do you have to give birth to a child to *not* be selfish?

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You don't of course but OPs description of his life is completely centered around having fun all the time. No mention of charity work or personal growth, etc.

38 with 3 kids.

Don't regret it one bit.

You say your not getting sick of those things you enjoy and you may not ever so maybe kids aren't your style. But I thoroughly was sick of all that around the age of 35 and then went back to grad school and then had a kid .. exhausting but so fun I was on the fence too but I routinely see a pic of my daughter and find myself rushing home even skipping workouts my most important hobby by far.

It is definitely hard to do in today's society and a lot of things get placed on the back burner. One thing only a child could do to me is massively broaden my feelings spectrum. In either direction. Nothing has made me cry of joy before or made me sleepless at night.

But one has to give up a LOT. Trick is do not become a family man but to take the kid with you on adventures. Of course it's not the same thing but ey.

Vermillion said:

You implied that OP was selfish for not wanting a kid.

Raising a child selfless? Sure. Having a child? No. And if you don't think OP is being selfish for how he feels (not wanting to have kids), then your response is even more confusing.

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I don't have to imply OP is selfish.

"over having fun, traveling, gaming, partying, dating etc"

We're all selfish to some degree but my point is if you think life is mostly about those things the OP listed then there's no point trying to explain the desire to have children to you.

I had my daughter as an "oops" 9 years ago.

I cut short my life of sports, travel, partying, etc...
and ended up being the best thing to ever happen to not just me but my wife as well.

It made us have to grow up really fast and I honestly feel like I wouldn't be where I am today if it never happened. Worked multiple jobs while wife went back to school and now we make very good money and I worked my way up from a stockroom position to a production planning position in Aerospace and now constantly get to enjoy doing tons of activities as a family because of the fruits of that hard work and growing up.

I would do it all over again if I had to. I love the effect it ended up having on my life.

If I stayed on my original path I would no doubt be in a worse spot, possible even still living at home at 34. I really had no drive to do anything back then.

Perfectly fine to not have kids.
Just be sure you won't regret it when you're too old to make them.

My view is that if you're with the right partner it's almost a no brainer. But when you're single or too young or with someone you're not really sure it's completely normal to be confused about having kids.