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Should Super Saiyan have reduced or ended Goku's life?

Cryptosporidium

Cryptosporidium

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
After Namek, the writing in DBZ gradually got worse, especially in the cell games where cell is losing, comes back, losing, etc

Im asking if you agree that DBs story would have benefited if achieving Super Saiyan either reduced ones life or ended it.

With this, Goku would be idolized and Gohan would work towards living up to him.

In this scenario, Goku would perhaps be the only super saiyan in the series though Vegeta might go super saiyan in his suicide atk against buu

All of this gets muddled with the dragon balls existing tho..
 
Aiii

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,191
Nah, removing all the transformations from Dragon Ball would have made it entirely less hype.

In this scenario we would have never gotten Gohan's SSJ2 transformation.
 
Lotus

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,931
Cryptosporidium said:
Im asking if you agree that DBs story would have benefited if achieving Super Saiyan either reduced ones life or ended it.
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Uh, no? The question implies that the real issue is the transformations, but that isn't the case. Also it just feels like a really arbitrary downside. But most importantly, it'd potentially give us Gohan as a protagonist, and he's.... not worthy.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
They fucked up the moment they started one-upping SSJ levels and thus reducing the SSJ's myth and status to a mere step in the continued evolution of power. Goku's made enormous physical and mental sacrifices to become Super Saiyan, and the fact he apparently died on Namek while practically saving the universe was fitting. I would have liked what you suggested that, in general, reaching that level of power practically murders your body so much that you can only do it a couple times at best, giving weight to the trasformation. Once it became just a random thing they did every 5 minutes it lost all value to me.
 
Veelk

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,711
the entire DBZ cast: Oh no, a main character is dying, whatever shall we do, if only our wishes could come true
 
Pop-O-Matic

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,900
Also, they already kind of did the "this shit can fuck you up" trope with the Kaioken and it ultimately went nowhere.
 
Khanimus

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,217
Greater Vancouver
The need to keep one-upping themselves past that first transformation completely fucked that story and any meaningful grasp of scale.

I mean to be fair... this is the show where Piccolo blows up the fucking moon before any of the crazy shit starts.

But yeah, going super saiyan with no consequence, risk, or even nuance really fucks that show, and breaks any worthwhile investment in its storytelling.
 
Gifmaker

Gifmaker

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
964
I don't see how it would make much difference, since Goku just keeps training and coming up with new transformations even in the afterlife.
 
The Silver

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,726
AT would never kill off Goku for good, he attempted it once after Cell and realized just how much he relies on Goku to move things forward and Gohan was banished to the shadow realm.

The other way it sounds like you want it to be like what Ultra Instinct is at the moment. Completely fucks up your body when using it too long and he's unable to access it again cause it's a very hard form/state to attain. Yes Super Saiyan would have been better if it was like that.
 
itwasTuesday

itwasTuesday

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
8,078
Jecht said:
60 minutes is like two seasons in Dragonball time
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I'm okay with that.

Thatonedice1 said:
Does that even mean anything? If someone actually used Super Saiyan that long (prepare for 30 episodes that are supposed to be 60 minutes) then they will either break past that limit or die and then be brought back by the dragonballs.
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60 minutes on screen time. After that they dead. No take backsies. Hardcore mode.

I'll accept using the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to lengthen the time though.

Dragon balls can be used to wish them back or to reload another 60 minutes. You can't wish for more than 60 minutes. Sorry, those are the rules.
 
Thatonedice1

Thatonedice1

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,112
Working on that also.
The Silver said:
AT would never kill off Goku for good, he attempted it once after Cell and realized just how much he relies on Goku to move things forward and Gohan was banished to the shadow realm.

The other way it sounds like you want it to be like what Ultra Instinct is at the moment. Completely fucks up your body when using it too long and he's unable to access it again cause it's a very hard form/state to attain. Yes Super Saiyan would have been better if it was like that.
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See you say that but does that actually ever end up meaning anything? I won't say I'm a expert in anime or anything but I haven't seen a signal series stick to the whole "This is shortening my life" thing. Wasn't Kaioken supposed to do this back in the day? Or did it just destroy Goku's body? I forget.
 
The Silver

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,726
Thatonedice1 said:
See you say that but does that actually ever end up meaning anything? I won't say I'm a expert in anime or anything but I haven't seen a signal series stick to the whole "This is shortening my life" thing. Wasn't Kaioken supposed to do this back in the day? Or did it just destroy Goku's body? I forget.
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Of course they wont stick to it, eventually Goku is going to master UI and get some new form. I'm just saying at the moment, that's how its being used.
 
Sandfox

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
This is looking on it now, so it may not have been the case back then, but having a power up/special attack that reduces the lifespan or kills the user is overused and generic as a way to show the character's resolve.

If SSJ worked that way it wouldn't be nearly as popular.
 
Malverde

Malverde

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,612
Unceded Tongva and Acjachemen land
Speaking of which, isn't Gear 2 supposed to be slowly killing Luffy every time he uses it? Was that only in the anime or was it in the manga too? I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop and Luffy to just collapse and die after finding the One Piece.
 
Sandfox

Sandfox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,743
DarthOrange said:
Speaking of which, isn't Gear 2 supposed to be slowly killing Luffy every time he uses it? Was that only in the anime or was it in the manga too? I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop and Luffy to just collapse and die after finding the One Piece.
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I think the implication there is that he "mastered" it during the time skip, which is why we no longer see side effects.
 
OP
OP
Cryptosporidium

Cryptosporidium

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
Not just talking stakes btw

But about what it would do for Gohans character development since he nvr reaches SSJ etc


Another good thread would be King Yama banning anyone from coming back to life more than 3 times regardless of dragonballs

Goku shouldnt have existed for Buu saga
 
Plasmid

Plasmid

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
686
Isn't it feasible that it caused his heart disease that was cured?
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Cryptosporidium said:
Not just talking stakes btw

But about what it would do for Gohans character development since he nvr reaches SSJ etc


Another good thread would be King Yama banning anyone from coming back to life more than 3 times regardless of dragonballs

Goku shouldnt have existed for Buu saga
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Arguably not even for Cell saga. It seems clear to me Gohan was supposed to be the leader from that point onwards, with Goku being sidelined by a random disease for most of the ark as well. Goku during the Buu Saga felt even more superflous, and when nobody even came close to beating Buu and it was Goku who had to do the dirty job again, it really showed how it can only really rely on this trope, be that because Goku was the most liked character or what but the others simply failed to evolve enough through time to get any. It was great to see clearly outgunned characters like Yamcha and Tenshinhan doing their best up until the Cell saga to at least make their stronger buddies gain some precious time, but by Buu it all fell apart imho.
 
_Karooo

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
I love how Saiyan cells mutate and they get powerful and hair colour changes. Super Saiyan Blue was garbage though, one of the worst transformations. It never felt powerful.
 
Ada

Ada

Member
Nov 28, 2017
3,737
Death doesn't mean anything in DB, so not sure what the point of the OP is.
 
broncobuster

broncobuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,139
Would've been nice if they introduced a proper downside for going super saiyan, to keep standard forms in play. I guess they mentioned it using a lot of energy in the Cell saga? I don't know how that reasoning held up. Even so it'd be like the power ups in Naruto, where they'd be like "oh there are drawbacks and limitations to so-and-so ability" but they forget about it after that first fight.
 
Rendering...

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
No, DBZ is fine the way it is. It took until GT for the story to decline enough to make a shortened run preferable to what we got.
 
Elfotografoalocado

Elfotografoalocado

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
FairyEmpire said:
They fucked up the moment they started one-upping SSJ levels and thus reducing the SSJ's myth and status to a mere step in the continued evolution of power. Goku's made enormous physical and mental sacrifices to become Super Saiyan, and the fact he apparently died on Namek while practically saving the universe was fitting. I would have liked what you suggested that, in general, reaching that level of power practically murders your body so much that you can only do it a couple times at best, giving weight to the trasformation. Once it became just a random thing they did every 5 minutes it lost all value to me.
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I disagree, when Future Trunks and Vegeta were SSSJ out of nowhere and Trunks just obliterated Frieza, that was hype as fuck.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Elfotografoalocado said:
I disagree, when Future Trunks and Vegeta were SSSJ out of nowhere and Trunks just obliterated Frieza, that was hype as fuck.
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Those were great moments, and SSJ3 had its moments too (and I even liked SSJ4, although that isn't canon anymore), it's just that the entire thing lost its meaning. It was supposed to be a once every thousand years thing, a legendary warrior reaching that God-like status. What's that, now every Saiyan alive basically can become SSJ? And they can pull out new levels out of nowhere every single time a more powerful enemy comes? At that point, you just knew that a new major villain equaled a new SSJ level. Had Dragon Ball continued originally past the Buu Saga, you just know there'd be like SSJ7 or something in a few arcs. And seeing some of the directions Super went (brand new transformations), it seems even more of a plausible assumption.

In short, I liked the concept of SSJ, but it got trivialized, becoming nothing but a constant 1-up you could spend before a fight. Someone mentioned another anime in spoiler tags above: in that case, I only knew the story up until the end of the latest anime, so I have no idea how the manga handled it, but in that case the transformation seems to have been dealt ideally, with real consequences for such a sacrifice and concentration. Short-term, at least, it was devastating. The fact that by the Buu saga the characters (including kids) just transform back and forth easier and quicker than the effort and time required to burp turned the SSJ concept into a joke, overall.
 
Gonzalez

Gonzalez

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,679
Hasn't Goku died a couple of times already? So he's had plenty of new bodies replacing the ones that were abused to shit due to SSJ, and Kaioken.
 
Carlius

Carlius

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,000
Buenos Aires, Argentina
anything after the frieza saga and MAYBE, just maybe the cell saga sucks imo. First super saiyan was great and super saiyan 2 was good still. dbz is like buffy the vampire slayer where the first 5 seasons were awesome and then it sucked and it had a few episodes of 6 and 7 that were decent.
 
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