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IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
non-famous people don't hold press conferences, and people in "the industry" don't gossip about them.
People in their industry gossip about them. Which is why admitted serial sexual harassers having to leave their field and transition into new careers is the normal standard for normal professions. Louie shouldn't get held to a lower standard just because he's a famous millionaire.
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
His last special was mediocre and his behavior towards those women was volitional and gross. I was surprised how easy it was for me to move on from him since I was an avid fan prior to all this stuff.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
People in their industry gossip about them. Which is why admitted serial sexual harassers having to leave their field and transition into new careers is the normal standard for normal professions. Louie shouldn't get held to a lower standard just because he's a famous millionaire.
It is exactly the same standard, he is just rich.

Any profession would have the same option if they were also rich. Dentist, car salesman, phone sales, hotel manager, whatever. As long as you have enough money that you can do what was your profession as a vocation, you are free to do so.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
It is exactly the same standard, he is just rich.

Any profession would have the same option if they were also rich. Dentist, car salesman, phone sales, hotel manager, whatever. As long as you have enough money that you can do what was your profession as a vocation, you are free to do so.
Okay, then why should Louie get the benefit of the rich man's justice and be able to buy his way out of consequences? My position is that that double standard shouldn't exist for anyone.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
538dfa319f1b77a83930804f_rapey-2.gif

If you've seen his show you don't even have to use your imagination.
What exactly is going on in that scene?

So what are you suggesting? Anyone who breaks a law should have their wealth confiscated by the state?
Hey that might not be a bad idea in the case of some of the ultra rich.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
So what are you suggesting? Anyone who breaks a law should have their wealth confiscated by the state?
Not at all. I merely think that it is normal and appropriate for admitted serial sexual harassers to have to leave their fields of work for flagrant professional misconduct, and that for Louie to face those consequences is normal and appropriate. For some reason a lot of posters here think that he should be held to a lower standard for absurdly illogical reasons such as: he is rich, he is funny, they don't like "outrage culture," or they think people being drummed out of industries for flagrant misconduct is new territory somehow. Often they are just ignorant of the basic facts of Louie's misconduct.
 

large_gourd

Alt-Account
Banned
Jun 29, 2018
984
What exactly is going on in that scene?

As far as I remember, Pamela Adlon plays the Louie characters friend and eventual girlfriend. The whole thing is played as if he's the most pathetic guy on earth for how he continues to pursue her despite her being very hesistant about it and generally making fun of him. I think this scene happens just before they become a couple but I can't really remember. Basically he's trying to get her to have sex with him and she is grossed out and tries to leave and then he does things like in the gif. It's basically what it looks like.

Louie isn't a really a comedy show. It was a mix of comedy, drama and just total depression, so in context of the show at the time this came off differently than people use the gif now. I didn't think this was supposed to be representative of normal behaviour or a sweet romance and I still don't. However, Louis CK obviously has the kind of material he likes to dwell on and since hints of what he's done are in so much of his work, his work is now largely poisoned.

I'm not one of the people who thinks using fictional stuff is good material to judge a person by, actually I think that's really stupid in most cases, but I guess looking back on this now, it'd be pretty hard to watch considering it isn't miles away from what he has done in real life before this was made. Then again, I'll probably never look at anything Louis CK does again anyway, so it's pretty irrelevant.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
What exactly is going on in that scene?
It's exactly what it looks like. He's sexually assaulting his friend.
Not at all. I merely think that it is normal and appropriate for admitted serial sexual harassers to have to leave their fields of work for flagrant professional misconduct, and that for Louie to face those consequences is normal and appropriate. For some reason a lot of posters here think that he should be held to a lower standard for absurdly illogical reasons such as: he is rich, he is funny, they don't like "outrage culture," or they think people being drummed out of industries for flagrant misconduct is new territory somehow. Often they are just ignorant of the basic facts of Louie's misconduct.
But once again, you're missing the entire point. What you consider to be 'normal practice' when these things happen is not in of itself the result. People aren't changing jobs because they sexually assaulted someone, they're doing it because they need money. Louis does not. He's rich, and he has other revenue streams. He's a landlord in two nice buildings in New York. He doesn't have to work ever again. He's choosing to do so.

That would be true of any profession you can name. An investment banker couldn't get a gig at Goldman Sachs, a biochemist couldn't get a job at GlaxoSmith&Kline, etc, etc, but they could all work independently if they didn't have to care about money, as Louis doesn't.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
It's exactly what it looks like. He's sexually assaulting his friend.

But once again, you're missing the entire point. What you consider to be 'normal practice' when these things happen is not in of itself the result. People aren't changing jobs because they sexually assaulted someone, they're doing it because they need money. Louis does not. He's rich, and he has other revenue streams. He's a landlord in two nice buildings in New York. He doesn't have to work ever again. He's choosing to do so.

That would be true of any profession you can name. An investment banker couldn't get a gig at Goldman Sachs, a biochemist couldn't get a job at GlaxoSmith&Kline, etc, etc, but they could all work independently if they didn't have to care about money, as Louis doesn't.

What's your positive argument? That the fact that he's rich and connected should entitle Louie to fewer consequences?
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
People in their industry gossip about them. Which is why admitted serial sexual harassers having to leave their field and transition into new careers is the normal standard for normal professions. Louie shouldn't get held to a lower standard just because he's a famous millionaire.

you really have to clarify what exactly you are talking about as 'regular guys' who don't get 'rich guy standards.
A michael scott sexually harassing his secretary can go be a middle manager at another company in another town with zero issues.
There is no "industry gossip".
The number of industries small enough that every single employee of every single firm is well known enough must be tiny. I literally can't think of any.
If you're talking about the CEO of a fortune 500 company being well known enough to be gossiped about, then yeah, but thats hardly 'average joe' scenario.

If the manager of your local best buy is sleazing on his female employees, what, you think anyone not working at that best buy is talking about it? You don't think he can just waltz over to be a manager at a Walmart?
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
What's your positive argument? That the fact that he's rich and connected should entitle Louie to fewer consequences?
Should? Should is irrelevant.

If the women wanted to bring charges against him, he may have seen a substantial reduction in his personal wealth. They chose not to.

In terms of wealth, this already cost him more than the average person would earn many life times over in lost earnings. He will never go back to third position, or anything remotely close to it.

But as long as any alternative is the government taking assets based on criminal activities that didn't even see a court room? What 'should' am I meant to be supporting? Communism?
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
you really have to clarify what exactly you are talking about as 'regular guys' who don't get 'rich guy standards.
A michael scott sexually harassing his secretary can go be a middle manager at another company in another town with zero issues.
There is no "industry gossip".
The number of industries small enough that every single employee of every single firm is well known enough must be tiny. I literally can't think of any.
If you're talking about the CEO of a fortune 500 company being well known enough to be gossiped about, then yeah, but thats hardly 'average joe' scenario.

If the manager of your local best buy is sleazing on his female employees, what, you think anyone not working at that best buy is talking about it? You don't think he can just waltz over to be a manager at a Walmart?

I think if we are talking about most professional jobs, even in large cities,
most people know each other or of each other, and gossip like crazy. I know in my field, in my city (the largest in the state), we talk about people with reputations all the time. If someone with a national profile within my industry were to admit to serial sexual harassment, it would be very, very hard for that person to continue to find work in that industry. And at a minimum, if an admitted serial sexual harasser were to find themselves drummed out of the business for flagrant professional misconduct, it's hard to imagine anyone thinking it was unjust. Only on entertainment and politics will you find that bizarre reaction.

Should? Should is irrelevant.

If the women wanted to bring charges against him, he may have seen a substantial reduction in his personal wealth. They chose not to.

In terms of wealth, this already cost him more than the average person would earn many life times over in lost earnings. He will never go back to third position, or anything remotely close to it.

But as long as any alternative is the government taking assets based on criminal activities that didn't even see a court room? What 'should' am I meant to be supporting? Communism?

People are criticizing Louie for his sexual misconduct and his bungling of his attempted comeback. How Louie should behave is literally the entire discussion. Not sure what rabbit hole you've gone down about public policy or whatever.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
People are criticizing Louie for his sexual misconduct and his bungling of his attempted comeback. How Louie should behave is literally the entire discussion. Not sure what rabbit hole you've gone down about public policy or whatever.
That's the exact opposite of your argument though.

You've been saying he should be punished as a normal person would. But normal people aren't expected to punish themselves, they're being punished by fiscal pressure.

I don't like how Louis has returned, I was very clear about that, but your argument is that he shouldn't have the money taken off him, and he should have to change jobs, even though he doesn't need to for the same reasons other sometimes are (money). So you're suggesting Louis punish himself, right?
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
That's the exact opposite of your argument though.

You've been saying he should be punished as a normal person would. But normal people aren't expected to punish themselves, they're being punished by fiscal pressure.

I don't like how Louis has returned, I was very clear about that, but your argument is that he shouldn't have the money taken off him, and he should have to change jobs, even though he doesn't need to for the same reasons other sometimes are (money). So you're suggesting Louis punish himself, right?
I think he should apologize and open up much more than he has. This is a guy whose entire brand is aggressive self-scrutiny and deconstructing his worst impulses. He hasn't scratched the surface of what he needs to do to rebuild the trust of his audience. If he wants to have a relatively normal standup career that's not constantly disrupted and derailed by protesters, that's the bare minimum. If he doesn't, then public criticism, protests, disruption, and deplatforming will be the reactions that should greet him.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
I think if we are talking about most professional jobs, even in large cities,
most people know each other or of each other, and gossip like crazy. I know in my field, in my city (the largest in the state), we talk about people with reputations all the time. If someone with a national profile within my industry were to admit to serial sexual harassment, it would be very, very hard for that person to continue to find work in that industry. And at a minimum, if an admitted serial sexual harasser were to find themselves drummed out of the business for flagrant professional misconduct, it's hard to imagine anyone thinking it was unjust. Only on entertainment and politics will you find that bizarre reaction.

Most people with national profiles in a field aren't 'average guys', and someone with a national profile for being good at their job in, say, Milwaukee isn't going to find it hard to find a job in the same field in, say, Atlanta no matter how disgraced they are or how much gossip there is about them leaving a job.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
I think he should apologize and open up much more than he has. This is a guy whose entire brand is aggressive self-scrutiny and deconstructing his worst impulses. He hasn't scratched the surface of what he needs to do to rebuild the trust of his audience. If he wants to have a relatively normal standup career that's not constantly disrupted and derailed by protesters, that's the bare minimum. If he doesn't, then public criticism, protests, disruption, and deplatforming will be the reactions that should greet him.
I agree with all of that, yeah.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
Most people with national profiles in a field aren't 'average guys', and someone with a national profile for being good at their job in, say, Milwaukee isn't going to find it hard to find a job in the same field in, say, Atlanta no matter how disgraced they are or how much gossip there is about them leaving a job.
So he should try being a comic in another English-language country like New Zealand or the Bahamas. If he refuses to atone, then exile seems appropriate. Even so, in places where we can stop the OJ standard of non-justice for rich men, we should do so.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
As far as I remember, Pamela Adlon plays the Louie characters friend and eventual girlfriend. The whole thing is played as if he's the most pathetic guy on earth for how he continues to pursue her despite her being very hesistant about it and generally making fun of him. I think this scene happens just before they become a couple but I can't really remember. Basically he's trying to get her to have sex with him and she is grossed out and tries to leave and then he does things like in the gif. It's basically what it looks like.

Louie isn't a really a comedy show. It was a mix of comedy, drama and just total depression, so in context of the show at the time this came off differently than people use the gif now. I didn't think this was supposed to be representative of normal behaviour or a sweet romance and I still don't. However, Louis CK obviously has the kind of material he likes to dwell on and since hints of what he's done are in so much of his work, his work is now largely poisoned.

I'm not one of the people who thinks using fictional stuff is good material to judge a person by, actually I think that's really stupid in most cases, but I guess looking back on this now, it'd be pretty hard to watch considering it isn't miles away from what he has done in real life before this was made. Then again, I'll probably never look at anything Louis CK does again anyway, so it's pretty irrelevant.

Yeah, they eventually sleep together in that scene (though it isn't shown I think). I can't remember well, but I don't think their romance lasts. Note that the actress in the scene, Pamela Adlon is (or, most likely, was) good friends with him. She said she was shocked and needed some privacy to think about this and "grieve" (her own word) when she heard about what CK did, but AFAIK she hasn't said anything since. Nothing on her Twitter about this new development either.

But this is a good example of a case where you can't separate the artist from the art, really. Yes, in the context of the show and the scene, the point is mostly that the Louie character is pathetic and, in some scenes, touchingly depressive/depressing. The real Louis CK is just fucked up somewhere in the brain and needs medical help. I can't see how anyone could watch this episode (or the show, for that matter) knowing what the real Louis CK did in real life. Heck, even before this all came to light, the scene was already very uncomfortable to watch (on purpose, I assume).
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
Note that the actress in the scene, Pamela Adlon is (or, most likely, was) good friends with him. She said she was shocked and needed some privacy to think about this and "grieve" (her own word) when she heard about what CK did, but AFAIK she hasn't said anything since. Nothing on her Twitter about this new development either.
I was under the impression they were dating.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
How do you make a joke out of a dirty rape whistle?

He's certainly joked about rape before. The infamous 'no excuse' bit for example, but they felt like addressing the absurdity of sexual violence and the entitlement of the person responsible, but now that kind of thing rings as way too true of him personally.

Don't see how he can tackle that stuff now.
 
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IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
http://www.vulture.com/2018/08/loui..._campaign=vulture&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1

Apparently there were some women who were really uncomfortable with Louie's presence there.

That's the first I've seen of the crowd being more subdued when he left than when he first took the stage. That makes sense to me. I can imagine myself applauding when Louie first came out (not a standing O, though). Apart from being a comedy legend and the peer pressure of a crowd expecting a special, possibly slightly historic moment, I think I would have had the reasoning that I want to welcome him back so that he can begin the process of explanation, self-examination, and apologizing. Becuase fundamentally I want Louie to turn himself around. I was a fan for years. I interacted with him on aspecialthing back in the day. I went to his shows. I watched Lucky Louie and Pooty Tang. I gave him $5 directly for his specials. I watched his weird experimental shorts on his old website.

But he didn't deliver on any of those promises to listen and turn himself around the other night. And I feel a lot less inclined to forgive him as a result.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
Two of his victims aren't happy with the comedy cellar, to say the least.



It cuts off because it is a twitter thread, so may want to read the whole thing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
Fuck Louis CK the rapist and fuck anyone who defends him in this thread. This man is a blight on humanity and should be excommunicated from comedy
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
Masturbating in front of multiple women is utterly disgusting, but was he actually accused of rape??

He pretty much raped those women when he blacklisted them from comedy for not joining in on his jerk off fest. People can keep telling issue with me calling him a rapist but I'm going to keep calling him a rapist because of the harm he has done
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
Fuck Louis CK the rapist and fuck anyone who defends him in this thread. This man is a blight on humanity and should be excommunicated from comedy
Not a rapist.

He pretty much raped those women when he blacklisted them from comedy for not joining in on his jerk off fest. People can keep telling issue with me calling him a rapist but I'm going to keep calling him a rapist because of the harm he has done
Oh, by all means, be willfully ignorant then.
 

IggyChooChoo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,230
Two of his victims aren't happy with the comedy cellar, to say the least.



It cuts off because it is a twitter thread, so may want to read the whole thing.

I want to highlight their accusation that Dave Becky threatened them over this. It's an important part of the story. However, I didn't realize Pamela Adlon fired Dave Becky once all this broke out last year. I wish we could hear her perspective more thoroughly.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
Minimizing it by calling it what it was instead of stupidly calling it what it wasn't? There's no need to lie about the facts when what he did was fucking heinous already.

How is it a lie? You literally cannot commit sexual assault like that without having the mindset of a rapist. It's the exertion of power and control. He was the dominant man forcing his will upon women who did not consent and had no real chance to consent due to the power structure. Louis CK is a rapist.
 

pizoxuat

Member
Jan 12, 2018
1,458
He didn't "just" jerk off in front of non-consenting women. He ruined women's careers. Why the fuck should I care about his career?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
How is it a lie? You literally cannot commit sexual assault like that without having the mindset of a rapist. It's the exertion of power and control. He was the dominant man forcing his will upon women who did not consent and had no real chance to consent due to the power structure. Louis CK is a rapist.
It's a lie to call someone who hasn't raped a rapist. I can't believe that actually has to be explained to someone, but here we are. This is such a stupid conversation to be having and I can't believe I actually engaged you.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
It's a lie to call someone who hasn't raped a rapist. I can't believe that actually has to be explained to someone, but here we are. This is such a stupid conversation to be having and I can't believe I actually engaged you.

You might want to ignore me then because my opinion is that Louis CK is a rapist and should never be allowed because near a stage again for the harm he has done to people.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
It's a misstep to try and compare Louis' work to some regular office job and employment scenario. Louis' "job" is completely social in nature. Dude stands up in front of people and says some things and if people like it he keeps doing it and they give him money. There's no overarching hierarchal structure here other than Louis -> People. There's really no boss to fire him and no corporation to link his image to.

So at the end, his "social" job can only have social backlashes. And if a large enough majority of society is ready to "forgive", "let him slide" or even doesn't think what he did was a big deal to begin with (which we've seen, more or less) then it's a matter of two separate sides of life that will continually have to butt heads on the subject.

Louis may try and come back into the spotlight without ever addressing it at all and people will need to keep the other side of the argument alive and well. Louis may come into the spotlight and also try to address it in a sincere way or in his comedy routine. He may actually address it in a mature way or he may completely blow it off.

It's up to part of society to make sure that bad behavior is highlighted in spite of others who are willing to forget it.
 

JaredTaco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
710
He didn't "just" jerk off in front of non-consenting women. He ruined women's careers. Why the fuck should I care about his career?

You make a good point.

Also to Aviator Irelia's point of calling him a rapist. He may not have committed the legal definition of rape in the United States, but he committed horrible acts of sexual assault, which falls under some definitions of rape.

Wasn't trying to start an argument here. He committed sexual assault. He derailed the careers of multiple women and denied what he did.

I think it's a very valid opinion that he forfeited the right to ever do comedy again.
 
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Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
You might want to ignore me then because my opinion is that Louis CK is a rapist and should never be allowed because near a stage again for the harm he has done to people.
I understand your strong feelings toward Louie, and I agree that what he did was disgusting (I don't agree with people who willingly go to his shows or applaud him just for showing up, and don't think he should be anywhere near a comedy stage), but calling him a rapist only detracts from discussion. Some similarities are there in terms of the power mindset and taking advantage of people/treating them like sexual objects, of course.

That said, this guy hasn't done shit to change and just expects to jump back in after ruining careers and victimizing/traumatizing women with inexcusable and disgusting behavior.

So fuck him.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
the next time i see a "has #metoo gone too far??" take, i'm going to remember how this dude took a hiatus for less than a year and came back to a standing ovation
All that needs to be said really.
Cult of personality is scary. I liked Louis but being a sexual assaulter is a hard limit for me. Doesn't seem that way for the multiple people who cheered him on.