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mustardman

Member
Apr 11, 2018
17
It's key that any forum that wants to have longetivity and honest interesting debate allow room for different views to be to aired. The opposite of an unfair right wing forum isn't an unfair left forum, it's a reasonable rational forum with prinicples(not saying this forum isn't one currently).

The problem is it can be hard to try and draw the line between genuine conservative beliefs and hateful trolling in the age of Trump, when most conservatism seems to be just that. But we should air more on the side of allowing speech vs banning too quickly.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
Enlighten me, what am I doing, exactly? Without any of your condescension, if that's at all possible for you.

I already did. It's in the post you quoted. It's in tons of other posts regarding you and others.

It's been explained the same way by multiple posters, in many different posts, plenty of which are responding to you.

You are fine with racist bigoted policies, and defending said vote after the fact, that destroy lives, because you want some bullshit 'fiscal conservative' bullet point buried deep the fuck in there.

Saying you don't agree with them means Jack and shit. Those are just words you use to pay lip service. You still support those policies and that party, in order to get what you want.

Your fiscal conservative bullet points.

Which in itself we have already shown is bullshit coded dog whistling, as described by the person who came up with it as a strategy. So.... yeah.

And the very obvious reason why, which everyone can see despite you thinking you are oh so clever about it, is because that is more important to you than the lives of the people being hurt.

I'm not re-explaining it to you again.
 

Ponn

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,171
I'm on my own schedule, not yours. Your convenience with regards to forum posts is on the bottom of the list of my concerns.

Apparently at the bottom of your list is also the Republicans who vote for and enable bigoted and racist policies but need to be engaged with. You've spent this whole thread finger wagging Dems but, as usual with people spouting this rhetoric, you can't be arsed to actually walk your talk and "engage" the Republicans. Even when their post is handed to you on a silver platter.

And how much time have you spent here now trying to defend yourself instead of "engaging"? Yeah.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
Others have called out why this post is horseshit, but I'm curious why this was whited out by (apparently) a moderator.
It was edited by a moderator but I seriously doubt that person had anything to do with it. Maybe they were trying to fix it. It looked fine (to me) when I left for work but something must've borked. I vaguely recall a thread some months ago where someone had the same thing happen. My guess is it's related to the copy/pasting from that article. Look how the paragraph I typed underneath the quote has different font. Someone also said they couldn't even see the quotes. I'm going to try to copy/paste it into notepad to get rid of the formatting and then try again.

Your President signed off on the family separation policy specifically because he's a racist shitwad, and you don't regret that he's a racist shitwad because of the "macro level" justification you've latched onto to explain your vote. That's why most minorities outright hate Trumpers. If overt racism in a person isn't an automatic disqualifier for you in any candidate regardless of their party affiliation, then you can't claim to care about the well-being of the minorities that that candidate is going to stomp on if they win. Family separation, Heather Heyer's murder, the shooting of a journalistic outlet, and more- these brazen displays of racism, xenophobia, and paranoia, and more are yours to own. You don't get to get out of this scot free.
"latched onto"

It's not latched onto. Again, I don't know if you could see the article I quoted but it's not grasping at straws to try to justify being a republican. Here:

Take the economy, which is faring better under Mr. Trump by many measures than it has in a generation or longer. Each week throughout this summer has brought almost nothing but economic sunshine. The pace of factory hiring has more than doubled since last year. A July survey from the National Federation of Independent Business notes that optimism among small-business owners, who employ nearly half the nation's private-sector workforce, is at levels not seen since 1983. Wages are also increasing, which was reflected in a Commerce Department report last week that showed retail sales—on groceries, restaurants and clothing—far exceeding economic forecasts and surging at double the rate of inflation.

The best feature of this economic growth is its inclusiveness. The simultaneous gains among various demographic groups is something the country hasn't experienced in a long time, if ever. Older workers, women, minorities, seniors and the less-educated all are faring better in the labor force today than they did under President Obama. The jobless rate for Americans age 16 to 24 hit a 50-year low this summer. In May, the black unemployment rate dipped to 5.9%, the lowest number on record at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. People who had stopped looking for work are sending out resumes. More people are quitting jobs because they are confident that a better one awaits. Employers are increasing perks and benefits in an effort to attract new hires and keep the ones they already have. There were 6.7 million job openings last quarter, a 17-year high.

It's a variety of major economic indicators affecting a variety of demographics.



Will you vote for him again?

All you are saying with this post is you care more about "economic indicators" than the lives and well-being of marginalized people. If that's what you choose to believe, admit it to yourself and realize that makes you a monster in the eyes of many.

Is there anything Trump and his administration could do that would mean more to you than those "economic indicators?"
It works great for rich people and people with their fingers in the stock market but how does it help me? .
The "economic indicators" encompass a wide variety of demographics, as it says in the article.

Are you going to be one of those dudes who post a post like this but never returns?
I'm pretty sure he did this to me before. I've given him another chance in this thread but I have little faith he will rise to the occasion. Keep trying I guess.
He's not coming back
I'm in my 30s. I have adult responsibilities and a social life. I don't live on the internet. Gozu, if I did that to you it absolutely wasn't intentional. I've got 500ish posts and probably like 50 of them are political so it wouldn't be too hard to find.


 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
Alright well the font is weird in that post too and I previewed it before I added the quote so it's probably not the quote. Pasting the main post from notepad:

Been following this thread for the last day and if you can ignore the one-liner shitposts, there's some excellent points made in here, on both sides™. I'm a conservative, republican, and voted Trump and don't regret it, on a macro level, which means taking into account what I feel affects the most possible people in our country across a wide variety of demographics , our economy and job growth. Nearly every economic indicator is positive and we're well into year two of his presidency; it would be disingenuous to imply this is still all Obama's doing. Of course I'm not supportive of Miller's family separation debacle, it's insane and even if it wasn't Trump's idea he still signed off on it, did he not? The man is far too easily coerced by people he considers loyal to him. Who better to coerce him than politicians and other people working in Washington? That's a huge issue with the administration and why it's so important he surrounds himself with better people.
As far as having a place on this forum, here's a reply I liked:
I mean...the same role as anyone else on this forum as long as they don't violate the TOS?
I don't think this forum should ban or even ostracize Rs (and I don't think it does)...and the history of this forum and the ones it came from suggests that it doesn't. This forum respects cogent arguments that aren't out there to offend or marginalize people, and if you're out here to do that by posting some -ist bullshit, you'll get your card pulled.
Don't be a dick, and be ready to defend your ideally non-anythingist position in a non-disingenuous way. No problems.
Don't be an asshole and don't troll and you'll "survive" because being a Republican and/or a Trump supporter isn't against the TOS from what I gather. Until that changes, just use some common sense when you post. Here's a couple of examples of what I mean by that:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...-supporters-around.58137/page-5#post-10863504
That's my post in the "What would it take to turn Trump supporters around?" thread from a few weeks ago. I took time to write it and articulate my thoughts. Peep the rest of the thread, like page 3 and 4, where there's several posts of just a GIF. If you come into these threads as a Republican and post a shitty one-liner or a gif and then get dogpiled and agitated enough to keep replying and snowballing it out of control into a warning or ban, that's your fault because you didn't use common sense when posting. Of course a no-effort reply that's against the grain is going to aggravate people and if you do that intentionally, you're either 1) trolling... that's the definition of trolling, or if it's unintentional and you go run to another site to complain about the hypocrisy, then you're 2) an idiot that lacks common sense.
Check out Belmonkey's post below mine implying that because of what I said about the economy I must be okay with kids in cages; Webster's exact definition of a false equivalency. That type of low-effort garbage isn't worth a reply, and if you do reply to it and you end up going back and forth, chances are it's going to snowball out of control.
Another example of common sense... I think this is a phenomenal article below, but I wouldn't dare create a whole thread for it, even though it's perfectly suited for one, as I'm not 1) or 2) above.
Take the economy, which is faring better under Mr. Trump by many measures than it has in a generation or longer. Each week throughout this summer has brought almost nothing but economic sunshine. The pace of factory hiring has more than doubled since last year. A July survey from the National Federation of Independent Business notes that optimism among small-business owners, who employ nearly half the nation's private-sector workforce, is at levels not seen since 1983. Wages are also increasing, which was reflected in a Commerce Department report last week that showed retail sales—on groceries, restaurants and clothing—far exceeding economic forecasts and surging at double the rate of inflation.
The best feature of this economic growth is its inclusiveness. The simultaneous gains among various demographic groups is something the country hasn't experienced in a long time, if ever. Older workers, women, minorities, seniors and the less-educated all are faring better in the labor force today than they did under President Obama. The jobless rate for Americans age 16 to 24 hit a 50-year low this summer. In May, the black unemployment rate dipped to 5.9%, the lowest number on record at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. People who had stopped looking for work are sending out resumes. More people are quitting jobs because they are confident that a better one awaits. Employers are increasing perks and benefits in an effort to attract new hires and keep the ones they already have. There were 6.7 million job openings last quarter, a 17-year high.
When the media reports this good news, the stories too often resemble a Democratic National Committee press release. The main objective is to assure you that Mr. Trump's tax cuts and regulatory reform had nothing to do with it, that his predecessor deserves the real credit or that it was all just inevitable. Hogwash.
For all of his faults, the president deserves some praise for the ramped-up economy, just as he'll deserve blame if his counterproductive trade wars reverse these gains over time. Covering the Russia meddling investigation and keeping the White House honest is important, but these things are hardly the sum of Mr. Trump's presidency.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-media-keep-falling-into-the-trump-trap-1534892905
Take a wild guess what would happen if I made that thread or, frankly, anything positive about the current administration? If you know the answer and the consequences, why do it? And then run along to cry about it somewhere else "SEE... I got banned for X while blah blah".
This is a community and every community doesn't adhere by the same rules. If you don't like them or think they're unfair, there's plenty of other communities that could fit you. If your friend's family had a rule to never do (whatever) inside their home, and you broke that rule intentionally, even though it's perfectly fine to do at all your other friends' homes, don't complain about what happens next. Traveling to other countries is a better example of that in terms of adhering to their customs and cultural norms. It's not hard to NOT get banned if you use some common sense when you post and aren't an asshole.
 
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kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
What good is money when you don't have basic human rights? You're just confirming what we all thought, you care about money more than people's well-being.
Money has an enormous impact on people's well-being -- that's the point.

Will you vote for him again?
Forgot to reply to this in the post above amidst the editing mess. I don't know at this point. We still have more than two years to go. A lot of people like to parrot the "we're due for a recession" line but we're now years past due. It's obviously not on a 10 year cycle anymore. Someone earlier mentioned the bubble... another superficial parroted talking point with little substance to it. We're in uncharted territory here. The next two years are going to be interesting to say the least.
 
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Nephtis

Banned
Dec 27, 2017
679
Being a conservative / republican is fine and good, and they deserve a place in the forum. Their opinions should be heard, and discussion should be had. As long as they adhere to the TOS and have a debate / conversation in good faith, I don't see why they should be shunned.

I've met republicans who are fantastic people that just have a different view economically than me, while still supporting a lot of the social aspects that I do. I've also met democrats and liberals that are absolute shitbags. The only problem that I see in this forum is that a lot of dissenting opinions not just get shut down, but often they are goaded into saying something or replying to someone in a way that will get them banned. This issue isn't anything new -- happened a lot in GAF as well. They put words in your mouth, wait for the perfect opportunity for you to fuck up and bam! you're gone. The dogpiling is insane too.

So unless you go with the grain, what you say even if you frame it in a perfectly polite and concise way, you will be met with lots of hostility and toxicity. So it's understandable that so many of them want to remain in the shadows and would much rather not post. So as for what "role" they have, I honestly don't know. But it does suck that we see so much of the extreme either left and extreme right - it's become so much more polarized, it sucks.
 

mustardman

Member
Apr 11, 2018
17
Being a conservative / republican is fine and good, and they deserve a place in the forum. Their opinions should be heard, and discussion should be had. As long as they adhere to the TOS and have a debate / conversation in good faith, I don't see why they should be shunned.

I've met republicans who are fantastic people that just have a different view economically than me, while still supporting a lot of the social aspects that I do. I've also met democrats and liberals that are absolute shitbags. The only problem that I see in this forum is that a lot of dissenting opinions not just get shut down, but often they are goaded into saying something or replying to someone in a way that will get them banned. This issue isn't anything new -- happened a lot in GAF as well. They put words in your mouth, wait for the perfect opportunity for you to fuck up and bam! you're gone. The dogpiling is insane too.

So unless you go with the grain, what you say even if you frame it in a perfectly polite and concise way, you will be met with lots of hostility and toxicity. So it's understandable that so many of them want to remain in the shadows and would much rather not post. So as for what "role" they have, I honestly don't know. But it does suck that we see so much of the extreme either left and extreme right - it's become so much more polarized, it sucks.
Agreed 100%. I'm largely left leaning but I've seen enough bans on people who I thought were giving reasonably honest opinions to give me pause. It's important to try and steel man your enemy and give them their due.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
What about the human rights though?
The right has a pretty awful track record with them. I'm not a monster... there's still 500 kids without their parents, Muslim ban, the trans military reversal, it's insanity. I'd bet you most level-headed republicans feel the same way. That begs the question how many of them are level-headed?
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,488
The right has a pretty awful track record with them. I'm not a monster... there's still 500 kids without their parents, Muslim ban, the trans military reversal, it's insanity.

And that's all good in the "macro", and you regret nothing, cause they might have a tiny bit more money to make them feel better about their rights?
 

TreeMePls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
The right has a pretty awful track record with them. I'm not a monster... there's still 500 kids without their parents, Muslim ban, the trans military reversal, it's insanity. I'd bet you most level-headed republicans feel the same way. That begs the question how many of them are level-headed?
I'm a conservative, republican, and voted Trump and don't regret it, on a macro level,
Pick one
 

aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,023
kbear, best to select "none" when choosing a font colour, if you select black or white it'll look strange when people are using the reverse theme.
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
The right has a pretty awful track record with them. I'm not a monster... there's still 500 kids without their parents, Muslim ban, the trans military reversal, it's insanity. I'd bet you most level-headed republicans feel the same way. That begs the question how many of them are level-headed?
Considering Trump's 90% approval rating among republicans, it would suggest very few of them are level headed. And people like you that are supposedly level headed validate the beliefs behind that awful track record on human rights by voting for it anyway.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
And that's all good in the "macro", and you regret nothing, cause they might have a tiny bit more money to make them feel better about their rights?
You and I have a fundamental difference on just how much money and having a job/career can impact someone's well-being. On many of these indicators, including ones that significantly affect minorities and the lower & middle class, we haven't seen these types of numbers in 15 to 20 years. It's unbelievable. Both Obama and Trump have had a hand in it but ultimately does it even matter who gets credit as long as the positive results keep rolling in.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
Considering Trump's 90% approval rating among republicans, it would suggest very few of them are level headed. And people like you that are supposedly level headed validate the beliefs behind that awful track record on human rights by voting for it anyway.
What about people like myself that "don't regret it" due to what I've detailed in this thread? Where does a person like that fit in the bill?

kbear, best to select "none" when choosing a font colour, if you select black or white it'll look strange when people are using the reverse theme.
Thanks.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,315
Forgot to reply to this in the post above amidst the editing mess. I don't know at this point. We still have more than two years to go. A lot of people like to parrot the "we're due for a recession" line but we're now years past due. It's obviously not on a 10 year cycle anymore. Someone earlier mentioned the bubble... another superficial parroted talking point with little substance to it. We're in uncharted territory here. The next two years are going to be interesting to say the least.

Don't ever pretend you are actually bothered by all the horrible things Trump does.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,315
What about people like myself that "don't regret it" due to what I've detailed in this thread? Where does a person like that fit in the bill?

What about you? You're not special. I don't regret voting for white supremacy because of something something the economy and I don't know that I won't just do it again in 2 years is not respectable.
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
The "economic indicators" encompass a wide variety of demographics, as it says in the article.

The jobless rate for 16-24 hit a low. That can mean more people that young HAVE to go to work because the family can't afford not to. It's not inherently a good thing. Though, as I've said, most people haven't gotten increased wages. The increased sales can be due to the bonuses that were given out. I'd have to see the numbers in the long term to see if wages are actually increasing much more than normal. Let's also not forget that productivity and wages don't coincide.

Also as this thread points out. 40% of Americans still struggle to meet basic needs. Tax breaks for the top earners don't help this. A better safety net will.

Republicans have blocked Medicaid expansion. Trump has removed LGBT, environmental and health protections. You're right in that the right have terrible record of human rights. People who vote for them vote for this. Do I think you're a bigot personally? No. I don't know you enough to say this. Unfortunately, you're willing to support bigots so their economic policies pass.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
You and I have a fundamental difference on just how much money and having a job/career can impact someone's well-being. On many of these indicators, including ones that significantly affect minorities and the lower & middle class, we haven't seen these types of numbers in 15 to 20 years. It's unbelievable. Both Obama and Trump have had a hand in it but ultimately does it even matter who gets credit as long as the positive results keep rolling in.

If you aren't giving credit to Trump and Hillary had a similar platform to Obama, what makes you think that the numbers wouldn't be this good or near this good under her presidency?

I don't see how you can't regret voting for someone who is responsible for the rise of racially targeted child abduction, psychological torture, and internment camps if you aren't even giving credit to Trump for the single aspect you seem to care about.
 

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
The right has a pretty awful track record with them. I'm not a monster... there's still 500 kids without their parents, Muslim ban, the trans military reversal, it's insanity. I'd bet you most level-headed republicans feel the same way. That begs the question how many of them are level-headed?
Let me tell you, you've made my night a big pain in the ass. These people in here are practically hounding me to death because you voted for Trump. I couldn't even fully enjoy my film tonight because the bombardment of bullshit from them was on my mind.

I don't think you're some monster. I think they largely do, and they'll cast me in the same light, despite our differences. I cannot condone or even fully understand your Trump support in 2018, because even if I were to entertain the notion that he isn't a monster outright, he's chosen to surround himself with monsters. That was his decision, and the sins are on the shoulders of anyone who voted for him and more so those who continue to support him after the fact. I think there is a dialogue to further be had here, but I must admit, your initial post was extremely long, as are the replies I see now, and I haven't had the time to read them all. I don't think this thread is a conducive environment for the discussion, given the bigotry from some of the more liberal posters, but I'd definitely want to read more of your thoughts, and I commend you for not only sharing your views, but coming back afterwards to continue engaging.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,315
I'm over the insulting tone, low-effort, baiting, assumptive types of one-liners you've directed at me in this thread. There's a reason I've ignored them and now I'm going to take that a step further.

Well yes the reason is you don't want to face up to what you're enabling and don't want to be judged for it.

You hide behind tone because you know your substance is bunk. You don't get points for saying I don't like the oppressive shit he's doing but I don't regret enabling it and I might do it again. Respect is not something you are entitled to.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,488
You and I have a fundamental difference on just how much money and having a job/career can impact someone's well-being. On many of these indicators, including ones that significantly affect minorities and the lower & middle class, we haven't seen these types of numbers in 15 to 20 years. It's unbelievable. Both Obama and Trump have had a hand in it but ultimately does it even matter who gets credit as long as the positive results keep rolling in.

And this is more important than everything else such that you don't regret it?

And what about people who have jobs, are still struggling to pay rent, and also have their rights attacked? It's all good just cause "jobs", in general, regardless of whether they pay enough or not, exist more?

EDIT: To be clear, I feel you keep avoiding the point by focusing on these employment related things while not addressing how it somehow is so important vs the rights issues that you don't regret your choices, and if it really does come down to "I prioritize the arbitrary concept of being employed over individual humans actually suffering regardless of their employment", I want to hear that, and if it doesn't, I want to hear what you're trying to actually say.
 
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Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
I don't think this thread is a conducive environment for the discussion, given the bigotry from some of the more liberal posters, but I'd definitely want to read more of your thoughts, and I commend you for not only sharing your views, but coming back afterwards to continue engaging.

This is honestly impressive. People who vote Republican aren't bigots, it's the liberal people who are upset with them.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,359
Phoenix
Let's say one's sole reason for "still" supporting Trump is the economy. Is there a limit? Is there a line Trump can cross, a low he can go that would no longer get the vote of such a supporter? The economy is not doing well only because Trump is president. It would be doing well (maybe not as well it's arguable but well) regardless. So is there a limit?

See I don't think there is, because if there was, it should have already been crossed with the bans, the kids in cages, and the fascists tendencies. It's far more likely that without the economy to try and justify their support, these people that like to come across as the "reasonable" Trump supporters would just tune out completely, but still vote for Trump in the end. I mean it's literally all they have. It's one of the reasons threads like North Korea are so popular. They NEED something. But the economy is a hard subject to understand so the peace threads are perfect for coming out in support for Trump. Arguing about the economy is hard but saying liberals must not want peace isn't.

Well we saw how that went.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,488
Let me tell you, you've made my night a big pain in the ass. These people in here are practically hounding me to death because you voted for Trump. I couldn't even fully enjoy my film tonight because the bombardment of bullshit from them was on my mind.

I don't think you're some monster. I think they largely do, and they'll cast me in the same light, despite our differences. I cannot condone or even fully understand your Trump support in 2018, because even if I were to entertain the notion that he isn't a monster outright, he's chosen to surround himself with monsters. That was his decision, and the sins are on the shoulders of anyone who voted for him and more so those who continue to support him after the fact. I think there is a dialogue to further be had here, but I must admit, your initial post was extremely long, as are the replies I see now, and I haven't had the time to read them all. I don't think this thread is a conducive environment for the discussion, given the bigotry from some of the more liberal posters, but I'd definitely want to read more of your thoughts, and I commend you for not only sharing your views, but coming back afterwards to continue engaging.

I don't think people "hounded" you because of him. People "hounded" you because you were extremely dedicated to avoiding understanding "people being complicit due to ignorance are still complicit", and then kept bothering the people trying to explain this to you instead of addressing kbear even though his presence messed with your point - which, yes, I understand and also feel his choice in font/coloring made it hard to read, but a decent people had quoted him too.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
What about people like myself that "don't regret it" due to what I've detailed in this thread? Where does a person like that fit in the bill?

In the country I'm from, people like you were indeed very important for the regime to work. Since you value your personal wealth over the human rights of large parts of the population, and have directly stated that you will continue to support it, you're pretty vital for that purpose.

Without people like you, the human rights abuses wouldn't be happening. It's not the fanatics that enable them, it's the greedy support from people like you that do. Always been that way. You have to reconcile that - you're responsible for the crimes. You could have been loud, and stood up against the support for white supremacy from your president, against the attacks on LGBT people, against the outright racist policy. But you didn't. And you yourself stated the only reason for that is money. It really is on you, unfortunately.

Let's also not forget the ways your president undermines the very concept of your democracy, and supports his camarilla to do the same in other countries - such as the ambassador in Germany trying to support actual neonazis.
Again, entirely on you, unfortunately.

Also, it's not disingenuous to point out that the positive economy is thanks to Obama. Surely, if you know something about the economy, you should be aware of the economic cycle, which in itself takes longer than a one-term presidency to run its course. You should also be aware of the concept of burning reserves for short-term gain, which your president is also doing. If one cares little for the future, it's fairly easy to get a few positive indicators going for a bit, especially when you literally torch future gains.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,315
Let me tell you, you've made my night a big pain in the ass. These people in here are practically hounding me to death because you voted for Trump. I couldn't even fully enjoy my film tonight because the bombardment of bullshit from them was on my mind.

I don't think you're some monster. I think they largely do, and they'll cast me in the same light, despite our differences. I cannot condone or even fully understand your Trump support in 2018, because even if I were to entertain the notion that he isn't a monster outright, he's chosen to surround himself with monsters. That was his decision, and the sins are on the shoulders of anyone who voted for him and more so those who continue to support him after the fact. I think there is a dialogue to further be had here, but I must admit, your initial post was extremely long, as are the replies I see now, and I haven't had the time to read them all. I don't think this thread is a conducive environment for the discussion, given the bigotry from some of the more liberal posters, but I'd definitely want to read more of your thoughts, and I commend you for not only sharing your views, but coming back afterwards to continue engaging.

What are we bigots of?

And don't say Republicans
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
Anyone who isn't in full agreement with you, going from this thread.

The only person you've commended is the single guy who voted for Trump and doesn't regret it.

Resorting to the technical (and misapplied) defintion of bigotry in a discussion about homophobia, transphobia, racism, and sexism doesn't serve anyone well.
 

kbear

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
652
The jobless rate for 16-24 hit a low. That can mean more people that young HAVE to go to work because the family can't afford not to. It's not inherently a good thing. Though, as I've said, most people haven't gotten increased wages. The increased sales can be due to the bonuses that were given out. I'd have to see the numbers in the long term to see if wages are actually increasing much more than normal. Let's also not forget that productivity and wages don't coincide.
"That CAN mean"
"CAN be"

Your counterpoints here are assumptions you're making. I'm not an economist, either, so I get that we've gotta wing it from time to time when discussing this stuff. It says that older workers, women, minorities, seniors and the less educated are faring better in the labor force than they have in years and his reasoning seems to be sound (huge increase in consumer spending, employers offering more perks and benefits to hire new employees and keep the ones they have, the record unemployment across all demographics, workers quitting their jobs because they know they can better ones, etc.).

If you aren't giving credit to Trump and Hillary had a similar platform to Obama, what makes you think that the numbers wouldn't be this good or near this good under her presidency?

I don't see how you can't regret voting for someone who is responsible for the rise of racially targeted child abduction, psychological torture, and internment camps if you aren't even giving credit to Trump for the single aspect you seem to care about.
My response to that is we don't know how a (huge) hypothetical like that would stack up, but we do know the growth that's happened in front of us. Your scenario would obviously be ideal as we'd have it without 500+ kids still without their parents, but it's a giant assumption to make. It's a what-if that we'll never get the answer to.
 
Normally, I am extremely against the hasty reduction of peoples' viewpoints in the worst possible faith, as it's the fastest track to needless entrenching and heavy polarization. However...with Trump, there is no redeeming factor.

Right now I see a couple people in this thread saying, "I voted for and/or support Trump, and I'm not a monster". Well my friend, given Trump's body of work, that essentially hashes out to mean, "I voted for and/or support Trump but I agree with literally nothing he's said or done pre- or post-campaign", and guess what? That makes less than no sense.

If you voted for Trump, you support what he's said and done, and that makes you an unethical prick.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
"I don't regret supporting someone that I acknowledge is a piece of shit, because arbitrary reason.

Please don't be mean to me."

Yo this is some disgusting ass shit right here.

Fuck.

Far as I'm concerned, people like this have no place anywhere.

Sorry if that makes me a "bigot" lol
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Anyone who isn't in full agreement with you, going from this thread.

To be honest, reading your points, you shouldn't be surprised that LGBT people dismiss your, err, "arguments".

Remeber: You're the joker arguing that people supporting racism must never be called racists. Sorry to say, but people supporting an administration that actively tries to dehumanize people in the minority I'm in will have to deal with a negative reaction to that. Want it to stop? Advise them to stop supporting that.

you're saying that "not all conservatives are racist or sexist or homophobic," and we're telling you that, as long as they are supporting massively racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic policy, they will keep being racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic. That's just how it works. Your argument is known to me, by the way.

You probably think your arguments are super clever and impressive, but... I know them from history lessons. Grew up in Germany, you see, so they're very familiar to me.
 

Deleted member 2109

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,927
I rarely see them so their role is to lay low I guess. You can't really go around flashing support for this awful admin and not expect to get shit on.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
52,774
The right has a pretty awful track record with them. I'm not a monster... there's still 500 kids without their parents, Muslim ban, the trans military reversal, it's insanity. I'd bet you most level-headed republicans feel the same way. That begs the question how many of them are level-headed?

So you admit they have done monstrous things, but still claim to not regret voting for Trump?



Yeah okay.
 

JustinP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,343
My response to that is we don't know how a (huge) hypothetical like that would stack up, but we do know the growth that's happened in front of us. Your scenario would obviously be ideal as we'd have it without 500+ kids still without their parents, but it's a giant assumption to make. It's a what-if that we'll never get the answer to.
You didn't vote for Trump knowing what the numbers would look like today. The post you just quoted is asking you why you assumed Trump would continue the positive trends from Obama's economy and Clinton would have somehow reversed those trends. In 2016, you made the same sort of giant assumption you describe above and you apparently thought these numbers (that you haven't given any reasons for believing would be different under Clinton) would be worth the very predictable awful human rights violations you say you're against.

What about people like myself that "don't regret it" due to what I've detailed in this thread? Where does a person like that fit in the bill?

I don't think any decent person could vote for Trump and not already regret it based on what Trump has already done.

Hell, even if Trump wasn't an evil racist, he'd still be an incompetent idiot -- if someone thinks he's suited to be the president of the united states, it shows incredibly bad judgement.
 
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Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
My response to that is we don't know how a (huge) hypothetical like that would stack up, but we do know the growth that's happened in front of us. Your scenario would obviously be ideal as we'd have it without 500+ kids still without their parents, but it's a giant assumption to make. It's a what-if that we'll never get the answer to.

I'd rather have the sure fire assumption that 2000+ children weren't psychologically tortured in a method that multiple holocaust survivors have sympathized with than the sure fire assumption that various economic indicators are looking good when they were already on an upward trajectory.

Try giving a shit about the kids that have been molested instead of worrying about the slight chance that you'd have less money in your pocket. Or support this nazi bullshit, it's all up to you.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,359
Phoenix
So you admit they have done monstrous things, but still claim to not regret voting for Trump?



Yeah okay.
Hey if minorities are the cost of making America Great Again, at least my idea of a great America, so be it, should have been born the right color (or way) or worked harder so this shit wouldn't effect them like it doesn't me.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,488
"That CAN mean"
"CAN be"

Your counterpoints here are assumptions you're making. I'm not an economist, either, so I get that we've gotta wing it from time to time when discussing this stuff. It says that older workers, women, minorities, seniors and the less educated are faring better in the labor force than they have in years and his reasoning seems to be sound (huge increase in consumer spending, employers offering more perks and benefits to hire new employees and keep the ones they have, the record unemployment across all demographics, workers quitting their jobs because they know they can better ones, etc.).


My response to that is we don't know how a (huge) hypothetical like that would stack up, but we do know the growth that's happened in front of us. Your scenario would obviously be ideal as we'd have it without 500+ kids still without their parents, but it's a giant assumption to make. It's a what-if that we'll never get the answer to.

You... don't know the growth that's happened, though? You just said you're not an economist. You're seemingly basing all of this on a single article that threw some data points at you without diving very far into any of them, and with very vague wording besides. It says they're "faring better in the labor force" but does that mean they're making more money? Able to pay their rent with more money left over to spend on other things? That they're being treated well by their employers? Or just that more of them are hired to begin with regardless of any of those other questions' answers? Because you seem to be taking it as "everything is going extremely well for them such that their well-being is being universally improved by it", going by this post where you insinuated that this "faring better" line definitely means they all have more money and maybe even a "career" to make up for their rights being attacked, and, frankly... that's a leap?

So it's a pretty giant assumption to say "all this is actually very good for the people who are suffering otherwise thanks to Trump, and it could only happen under Trump, so it makes up for the suffering they and others endure thanks to Trump", isn't it?
 

Thordinson

Banned
Aug 1, 2018
17,906
"That CAN mean"
"CAN be"

Your counterpoints here are assumptions you're making. I'm not an economist, either, so I get that we've gotta wing it from time to time when discussing this stuff. It says that older workers, women, minorities, seniors and the less educated are faring better in the labor force than they have in years and his reasoning seems to be sound (huge increase in consumer spending, employers offering more perks and benefits to hire new employees and keep the ones they have, the record unemployment across all demographics, workers quitting their jobs because they know they can better ones, etc.).

Of course. I have to say can be because we don't know. I don't want to make an absolute statement. Which is why I want to see if these are long term wage increases or simply the effects of bonuses as far as increased spending. I'm not making an assumption if I said "it can". That's the opposite of an assumption.

But you did skip that 40% of Americans can't afford basic needs and how this helps them as opposed to higher taxes for a better safety net. And why you are okay with who you voted for taking away protections for some cash.
 

Doctor_Thomas

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,643
I think a lot of this can be summed up how I sum up right wing politics in general:

"Got mine, fuck you."

People who vote for right wing politicians don't care about racism or sexism or poverty or the rights of others, as long as they are OK.

It's the politics of the "self absorbed".