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John McCain has died at age 81 (READ OP)
- Thread starter zsynqx
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You don't agree that the jump from "He's a hero!" to "Well, he's not Hitler I guess" is a big one?
The follow-up tweet is really good too
All of this shit is so easy to say 50 years after the fact, from the comfort of your own bedroom with 20/20 hindsight. Fact of the matter is that he endured five and a half years of being a POW, and refused release one year into it on the principle of not having the other POW's captured before him released as well. That alone should earn him the basic common decency to hold your tongue on the day of his death.
I agree with everything said in this thread regarding his character, including the bad stuff. But again, there is no point in litigating this now. You gain literally nothing except a stain on your own character.
In a party where basic levels of integrety, decency and moralty are a insult to god, pardon Trump, his voice was surely needed.
Rip, you suffered too much for the wrong of history.
Rip, you suffered too much for the wrong of history.
It was easy to say it 50 years ago if you were a decent human being. That's why decent human beings did this. People 50 years ago already fucking knew the war was wrong.
Stop claiming it wasn't supposed to be horrible back then. Stop whitewashing the war crimes done by America. He was not a motherfucking hero. Don't call him that: again, you're doing nothing but pissiong on the graves of countless vietnamese civilians
Read the OP again and get off the Vietnam derail please. The last McCain thread also became a general Vietnam thread and it didn't go well.
Then crack down on people calling him a war hero too, as that's also a Vietnam derail by itself as well as a horrible misrepresantation of what the vietnam war was.
This is a good post. McCain certainly did some morally wrong things, but he actually seemed to learn as time went on and changed some of his positions for the better (which differentiated him from other Republicans). It's a shame he wasn't able to do it a little sooner. History will probably remember him as the man who first enabled Trump (via Palin) and then opposed him. Unfortunately he didn't have the necessary foresight to see what effect normalizing someone like Palin would have.
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Lionizing or even expecting everyone to give some kind "deserved" respect to bad people such as racist war mongers just because they were powerful and have now passed away is a mistake and part of the reason we're where we are as a country and why so many Americans embrace jingoism and authoritarianism.
Pretty much how I feel.
John McCain was a war hero in Vietnam = good
John McCain eagerly participated in the shitstain of a war that was Vietnam = bad
And later he played a major role in reconciliation with Vietnam.
Certainly, but several years later when Trump wanted to remove transgendered people from the military, McCain issued this statement:
"It would be a step in the wrong direction to force currently serving transgender individuals to leave the military solely on the basis of their gender identity rather than medical and readiness standards that should always be at the heart of Department of Defense personnel policy"
Here here.
Shouldn't be surprised by the way this community would react, but I didn't think it would be this vitriolic. Foolish on my part, I guess.
And then he held off retiring so that an unelected replacement could be named that won't have to face the electorate until 2020, a replacement that certainly will likely not share his thoughts on trans people in the military.
Some legitimately don't.
Again, people like Rush and Hannity know that they're intentionally riling up racists and bigots and don't care. They know it's wrong but they don't give a shit. Most on the GOP just play along because it will help them win elections. That is much different then having different political views.
More foolish is allowing people to laugh and piss in the face of murdered vietnamese civilians by calling the dude a hero. Say RIP and whatever else you want, but don't call him a motherfucking hero.
I'm really not sure he did all the bad he did because he thought it was good is that great of a character defense tbh.
"He may have wanted to legislate horrible policy, but a least he thought all those horrible polices were good ideas."
Half of this thread if not more is people saying RIP and talking about what a good man he is... but ok sure this community.
And let's be real the reality is the more whitewashing folks do of his legacy the more frustrated and aggressive the push back is going to be.
Honestly, I do find it rather troubling that some are actually engaging in apologism for the shitty things he did do. I am not opposed to acknowledging that McCain has done good in his life (nor do I think most people critical of him are), but once it actually goes into the territory of defending the horrible things he did, then we're actually taking a mindset of embracing and accepting these horrible things. If it wasn't for the Tea Party, we would still consider this shit repugnant. But because worse people than McCain and other Republicans came about, a lot of people moved along with the Overton window and became more willing to excuse the things we would have once crucified him for doing (and rightly so).
Did call him a socialist who wants to redistribute wealth though.
Is there actually anyone in this thread who excuses the bad McCain did? I certainly don't. Pointing out that nuance exists is not apologism.
How is that a bad thing? Aside from the fact that it isn't true, obviously.
Like i said it's always scary to see just how deeply war and military worship is ingrained into most americans.
Characterizing McCain as distinct from current Republicans in that he "believed in what he was doing," and in general, that sentiment is shit because a lot of actual horrific people believed in what they were doing. If that's the defense, then ouch. There shouldn't need to be any softening about those issues. When McCain opposed the repeal of DADT (with an argument that, surprise, turned out to be bigoted fearmongering), he wasn't being a good person.
This is an amazing post. Thank you for your service.
It is whitewashing to acknowledge that it's how politics work?
From your perspective policies and legislation he voted for were terrible for the country, but from his view from opposite side to yours those were right things to advocate for the country at the time.
Well obviously for you and me It's not but like you said it's untrue and clearly used as a fear mongering insult.
Many awful, horrible people have done vile, reprehensible things because they thought that was best for the country/party.
The only metric by which Mcain was a "good man" was if you compare him to your rock bottom of a president now. And I fully expect that comparison to happen a lot. It already has in this thread itself so many times.
Trump was the best thing that could have happened to US politicians. All their sins are washed away because they may have done (and supported) horrible things but hey at least they believed it was "for the best" and they arent as bad as Trump. Like GW Bush they were "good men at heart".
That's easy to say from today. At that time she was considered archconservative and stupid.
I hear ya, wanting people to have health care and fighting tooth and nail to keep it expensive... whose to say who was right.
Moral relativism is bunk.
It was pretty easy to say at the time too.
She actually served a pretty good purpose for him, he got to be bon cop because Palin was running around being batshit bad cop. He looked even more dignified in comparison and since no one seems to want to hold him responsible for having her as his running mate, it worked out brilliantly for his legacy.
That's true. It's funny how differently socialist reads to the public (US) now compared to how it did 10 years ago, as I don't think it'll work the same way as a fear mongering insult as it did then.
"From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"
"Well hey, he at least stands for what he believes in"
Though I guess that's bad phrasing considering Anakin doesn't have legs anymore
"Well hey, he at least stands for what he believes in"
Though I guess that's bad phrasing considering Anakin doesn't have legs anymore
We could have an entire thread on the irredeemable decisions made by the Jedi council too. I'm only half joking.
I mean, we could extend that further by making the point that Anakin was, in the Prequels anyway, perhaps the most irredeemable - even before his actions in Episode III.
(note I am not calling McCain a Sith or Darth Vader or something, the point is that it's just kind of offensive to see people make excuses for what McCain definitely did that was pretty bad.)
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