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How did squaresoft cram out 4 worldclass Final Fantasy mainline titles in such short timeframe?
- Thread starter SantaC
- Start date
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Yes it is harder to make games today, but that doesnt take away the hot streak square was on during ps1 era. The cgi movies that square made for PS1 were nice technical accomplishments for its time. (20 years ago)
Development costs have skyrocketed since then, obviously but IIRC, they were banking on making Final Fantasy a huge, worldwide franchise and invested a lot in it, and started developing multiple sequels to FFVII at the same time, opening new studios, making the movie, etc. Meanwhile they apparently had a pretty efficient pipeline they reused and refined across games.
FFVII was just a really good (and relatively cheap) foundation to build upon: background CG, about 2 hrs worth of cut scenes, work out the world map and character sprites... boom you can streamline a game pretty fast and go cheaper as you learn the technical ins and outs
Good mangment, very capable team and not having to waste 80% of their development time on graphics and chasing western industry trends like open world.
The Squaresoft side of Square Enix is just a former shell of itself now. Nothing is unique about them anymore. They've become generic and mediocre at best.
Kinda crazy looking at that release scheduling and now seeing how much their pace has slowed in the ps3 and ps4 eras...I'm sure the HD assets play some role, but more likely it's poor leadership.
Squaresoft WASTED a lot of resources back then, trust me. The company was producing output at a much higher rate than what they could sustain, which led to merge with Enix and some financial troubles.
Rather than soul searching with every game in a big way, they had a formula that worked and that they believed could be profitable and just went for it hard. These games were also disproportionately expensive (for the time), filled with outsourced work and I'd also argue the teams, which were very talented, were less laden with expectation and demand than they are now. Also one absolutely key thing: post FF7 there was no peer that could come close to touching FF, which I think gave them the confidence to do more mad and risky stuff.
The biggest change for FF, I think, is that the series now has major peers and rivals to worry about. That leads to market research shenanigans, which in turn leads to extra wastage, etc. In the end, they were games of their time and the teams behind them happened to be on a roll. The formula established in FF7 worked from both a popularity and a development standpoint, and the moment they started to move away from the template (often outsourced CG backgrounds, the game structure) you can see the uncertainty start to kick in. I think even FF10 has that uncertainty and sense of unease about it, then 12 a little more. By the time you hit FF13 in a post-Oblivion world, it's in overdrive.
The biggest change for FF, I think, is that the series now has major peers and rivals to worry about. That leads to market research shenanigans, which in turn leads to extra wastage, etc. In the end, they were games of their time and the teams behind them happened to be on a roll. The formula established in FF7 worked from both a popularity and a development standpoint, and the moment they started to move away from the template (often outsourced CG backgrounds, the game structure) you can see the uncertainty start to kick in. I think even FF10 has that uncertainty and sense of unease about it, then 12 a little more. By the time you hit FF13 in a post-Oblivion world, it's in overdrive.
It's all about workflow. Even in the HD era they managed to released FFXIII, FFXIII-2, and LRFFXIII within a 4 year time frame. That the games weren't great is besides the point, because you can spend 2 years making a great game, 2 years making a bad game, 5 years making a great game, 5 years making a bad game, etc.
Some quality discussion right here. Kind of reminds me of my early teenage years on the school playground discussing which FF was the best, with solid arguments such as "your opinion is shit" and "I know what's good and you don't".
On topic, yeah this is definitely impressive. And while I agree that they had much better management at the time, games do take a lot more work to create nowadays. The fact that those games were bleeding edge for their time doesn't change the fact that they didn't require as much modelling, texturing, animating, programming, bug fixing, etc. They were just simpler games.
Honestly, say what you will about Ubisoft, but nowadays they have an incredible workflow that allows to them to be pretty much the only ones in the industry to release quality games with huge worlds and great production values on an almost yearly basis for a lot of their franchises. Square Enix is far far behind, they really feel aimless to me nowadays. They still have talent, but they literally don't know where they're going with their projects and just seem to go with the flow, which you can painfully feel when you play FFXV.
During PS1 and part of PS2 era they were my absolute number 1 publisher/developper. I miss the old Square.
I was actually incredibly mature when I was a teenager. It's only since becoming an adult that I've turned into an insufferable twerp.
Yeah that streak was a little surreal. Its got very few sore spots. Like Ehrgeiz was the worst of their output in that span I would say; and me and my friends even bought THAT off of their pedigree. At that point they could sell anything because of the insane number of hits they delivered in a short time.
Documentary worthy for sure.
I'm thinking after 7 they had a tool stack and production workflow set up for pre-rendering backgrounds, building simple poly models etc, and they simply leveraged that to churn out games. It only stopped / slowed when the tech changed with PS2.
I think it helps that in the case of the Playstation games, they were all built on the foundation of FFVII. If Square built Final Fantasy XVI off of the back of the work done for FFXV I imagine we could probably have one in a couple of years, but Square don't exactly seem capable of doing things terribly quickly unless it's their studios with smaller titles like Octopath or I Am Setsuna. I'm kind of hoping to see that happen, because after being extremely skeptical of FFXV I was nicely surprised to find that I think there's some really good groundwork there for a fantastic Final Fantasy game unburdened by FFXV's troubled development. (This isn't to say the game isn't without its flaws, it has plenty of them, but I loved the combat, dungeons and open world - just wish that last part had a little more freedom for exploration)
No Nomura director?
They probably had a decent project management plan for their games and competend directors... then they lost both of these.
Game had their challenge too at the times, sure were a bit easier than now to produce "AAA" titles, but I don't think this is the main issue.
Unless you want to do an open world game, then sure you need much more time.
They probably had a decent project management plan for their games and competend directors... then they lost both of these.
Game had their challenge too at the times, sure were a bit easier than now to produce "AAA" titles, but I don't think this is the main issue.
Unless you want to do an open world game, then sure you need much more time.
No, different teams. FFIX was even made in Hawaii with a lot of overseas staff and started production before FFVIII was finished.
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If we are gonna be real, I think it's important to address the fact that while JP developers can still be hell to work for in some cases (Konami...)
the farther you go back in the past the worse it was. From stories I have heard from developers from various companies who have worked in the industry for decades,
up until about 15 years ago (depending on the company) the conditions were fairly terrible across the board. There are still issues of course, but a lot of JP gaming companies in particular have done a better job building a better work/life balance for their employees.
I'm sure that having better management also had a big impact, but the truth is that a lot of our favorite games from decades ago were often created under
some pretty horrendous conditions where companies were taking advantage of their employees and working them to the bone.
the farther you go back in the past the worse it was. From stories I have heard from developers from various companies who have worked in the industry for decades,
up until about 15 years ago (depending on the company) the conditions were fairly terrible across the board. There are still issues of course, but a lot of JP gaming companies in particular have done a better job building a better work/life balance for their employees.
I'm sure that having better management also had a big impact, but the truth is that a lot of our favorite games from decades ago were often created under
some pretty horrendous conditions where companies were taking advantage of their employees and working them to the bone.
In this thread I learned people think FFX is shit...who knew.
Anyway FFVII, VIII, IX and X was the golden era for Squaresoft. The gargantuan success of VII made the JRPG king and it was full steam ahead for the new era of CG movie packed 100+ hour multi disc ventures. Having 'unlimited' storage space for a game was a relatively new concept and lent itself exactly where Square wanted to go with story telling.
I think for the PS1 entries they quickly got a system down of cranking out high quality CG cut-scenes, pre-rendered backgrounds, and uncompressed audio...and people were eating it the hell up. It was a unique moment in time where the teams had a strong motivation and newfound ability to really stretch their legs creatively. That motivation showed in the quality and volume of content coming consistently every year. That continued with FFX being a system power showcase for PS2. I think FFXI was the start of the momentum slowing as Square fans really weren't ready to move to a MMORPG.
Anyway FFVII, VIII, IX and X was the golden era for Squaresoft. The gargantuan success of VII made the JRPG king and it was full steam ahead for the new era of CG movie packed 100+ hour multi disc ventures. Having 'unlimited' storage space for a game was a relatively new concept and lent itself exactly where Square wanted to go with story telling.
I think for the PS1 entries they quickly got a system down of cranking out high quality CG cut-scenes, pre-rendered backgrounds, and uncompressed audio...and people were eating it the hell up. It was a unique moment in time where the teams had a strong motivation and newfound ability to really stretch their legs creatively. That motivation showed in the quality and volume of content coming consistently every year. That continued with FFX being a system power showcase for PS2. I think FFXI was the start of the momentum slowing as Square fans really weren't ready to move to a MMORPG.
Don't know if you catched my edit, but FFIX started development before FFVIII was finished too.
It's pretty crazy that it's been 17 years since FFX's release and Square still hasn't recovered in terms of horrendously bad project management. That was the last flagship game where you felt they had a clear vision and delivered it. Since then all of their big projects bar none have been floundering in development hell. I cannot really believe that they pull the same thing with FF7R..! Let's hope that FFXVI and Tabata's new game will mark a new start for the company - they have such good talent and ideas, it's a waste seeing them so aimless and inefficient.
I remember Edge giving FF X a 6, which kind of shocked the fans back then. I think it's mostly to do with the changes from the previous games (not as open, very linear, even more unskippable cinematics, they didn't like TIdus), while keeping the random encounters. Back at the time, I understood where they were coming from, thinking FF X was definitely less than VII - IX, but after playing it a second time, it's still also world class in my opinion.
Either way, quality aside, because that's subjective, those 4 games (and the other games they released in the same timeframe) may not be up to today's standards graphics wise, but still contain an immense amount of content, while being ambitious story wise and graphics wise for their time and they're also all very consistent in quality imo. People may not like every entry, but it's insane what their output was back then and how different it is now.
I would said 7,9 and 10 is good or in the case of 7 great. But 8 is pure trash bin fire for me. Easily the worst FF next to 2.
Sakaguchi and his dumb filmmaking ideas are the reason Square had to beg Enix to merge with them.
I only like one of those games, but I'll play along. The reason is because Square Enix had multiple strong directors, planners. and producers, who could hit set and hit realistic deadlines. This enabled them to have multiple accomplished teams working concurrently. They had plenty going on outside of Final Fantasy too. I suspect that the fixed cameras probably help too though.
I do think the period from 1992 to 1996 was a lot more impressive to me. It's also just a mere four years, but they made like 6 or 7 of my all-time favourite games during that time.
I do think the period from 1992 to 1996 was a lot more impressive to me. It's also just a mere four years, but they made like 6 or 7 of my all-time favourite games during that time.
That's not entirely true though. The movie didn't perform well but it didn't bring the company to bankruptcy, not even close. There was a good thread in gaf that explained it.
A summary would be that Wada used the movie's failure to scare the investors and force the merger, kicking Sakaguchi out and executing his plan to transform S-E into the Japanese EA. It didn't work as expected as everyone knows.
Yeah i'd say people saying FFVI to FFVII wasn't a gigantic upgrade in cost and production value are crazy. You go from a pixel art game to tons of cgi, movies, backgrounds to create and it wasn't that usual back in the days, not counting animating tons of enemies etc..
It's difficult to compare with nowadays, relatively to those days resources and tools ect..
But i want to believe it's not the problem. I think, if SE was doing a limited scope FF (as limited as where those games) with amazing story/art/system and modern graphics, it would still be wayyyy more manageable and short than FFXV, simply cause it's the R&D + engine work + wanting to have modern aspect (open world, physics etc...) that cost them all that time.
It's the lack of direction to.
back in ps1 time, they just knew what they were doing and what were their strengh.
It's difficult to compare with nowadays, relatively to those days resources and tools ect..
But i want to believe it's not the problem. I think, if SE was doing a limited scope FF (as limited as where those games) with amazing story/art/system and modern graphics, it would still be wayyyy more manageable and short than FFXV, simply cause it's the R&D + engine work + wanting to have modern aspect (open world, physics etc...) that cost them all that time.
It's the lack of direction to.
back in ps1 time, they just knew what they were doing and what were their strengh.
That is simply amazing. Square was on another level in the 90's
Yup, figured everyone would act like they came into existence with FF7 and just gloss over how they pushed the SNES and 2D spritework to another level.
There's a lot of talk of some crazy crunch time for the games after VII, and even during VII from the switch across consoles and visual style redesigns.
But Square was insane during that time, Between 97 and 2001 you have FF7, FFT, Einhander, Chocobo Dungeon, Xenogears, Parasite Eve, Brave Fencer Musashi, Chocobo Dungeon 2, FF8, Chocobo Racing, SaGa Frontier 2, Legend of Mana, Front MIssion 3, Treads of Fate, Chrono Cross, Parasite Eve II, Vagrant Story, FF9, FFX... Among other games developed and published by them.
For the love of Christ they need to go back to basics. FFXV was not a good game given the time it took to make. Barebones MMO-lite side content, combat that doesn't evolve one bit from the first battle to the last and a nonsensical and quite frankly bad second half did the franchise no favors.
Look at P5... Do that but with FF... Please
Look at P5... Do that but with FF... Please
We probably would have got FF13, Versus 13 & maybe another FF in Gen 7 if Nomura didn't take so long, Crystal tools wasn't a joke & FF14 wasn't a bomb at first. They got really unlucky last generation, they are doing a little better this one but not by much.
It really all comes down to management. I think a more recent expample would be FF14. The rebirth with all of its stages of development were possible because of Yoshida and his skills in overseeing the project. They basically supported the base game and developed a whole new game at the same time. I don´t think that would be possible with most producers in SE.
The brutal working schedule is probably always a factor.
The YT channel Noclip did a nice series about yoshida and the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0yQKI7Yw4
The brutal working schedule is probably always a factor.
The YT channel Noclip did a nice series about yoshida and the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0yQKI7Yw4
This would be after the SFC version and their SGI work though. It's sort of like saying FFXV was developed in 3 years excluding all the work that went into Versus or Luminous beforehand.
Weeell, yeah, but it wasn't worked on much before though. FFVII's preproduction started in 1994 after FFVI released, but had to be interrupted fully because of Chrono Trigger and only was resumed in late 1995 (release was in January 1997).
Well Final Fantasy VII cost at least $40 million to make (Not including marketing costs).
The hot takes saying that FF VII et al was made by a team of less a few dozen people is ridiculously bad also. The credits just in the development side (Not QA or publisher side) was 150.
The game was the start of the trend of AAA game development after all. High budget, high production values and state of the art tech for the time.
There was clearly a great workflow in place around the PS1 and PS2 era at Square because the team sizes were Actually comparable to latter generations in actuality for the bigger projects.
